Debates of May 4th, 1995

Members Of Parliament Retiring Allowances Act

[Ian McClelland, Reform, Edmonton Southwest, AB]

What is there about having a pension that would lead to good governance? Does it lead to good governance or has it in the past?

[Jim Silye, Reform, Calgary Centre, AB]

Madam Speaker, a fair and reasonable pension that is commensurate with the private sector with a salary that is commensurate with the private sector for the workloads inflicted upon these people would attract and would show some good governance, and that is what we have to do.

[Ronald J. Duhamel, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to President of the Treasury Board]

Madam Speaker, I rise today to address this House on the subject of Bill C-85, legislation dealing with proposed amendments to the Members of Parliament Retiring Allowances Act.

Before presenting my speech, I would like to make a few comments. First, although I strongly disagree with the hon. member for Richelieu on a number of issues, including Canada's future, I want to congratulate him for making a speech based on facts. He made comparisons which help us get a better grasp of this whole issue.

It is not often that an opposition member presents facts and tries to help us better understand what we are doing.

With respect to the other speakers, it is my opinion that the Reform Party is exploiting a situation that I think it has whipped up for political gain. For example, there is the suggestion that if we take RRSPs this does not cost the taxpayers any money. I am sorry, that is terribly wrong. There are not millions but billions of dollars that the government is not getting as a result of RRSP programs. That is the kind of logic members of the Reform Party advance. They do not like to hear it, but RRSPs, those very programs they propose, would cost the government billions of dollars. They do now. Let us get serious.

Another thing that astounds me is when we talk about double standards, Reform is the party that said we must shun the parliamentary restaurant. I have been to the parliamentary restaurant and I have seen Reform colleagues there. These are the same people who said they would not go.

[An hon. member]

Name them.

[Ronald J. Duhamel, Liberal, St. Boniface, MB]

I do not want to name them. I do not want to embarrass them. But if forced, I shall.

"We would never go to those lobbies at airports. That is just not for us". Sorry, folks, I have seen some there too.

They have also said they are not flying executive class. Wrong again. They do. These are the same members that say they are going to take a cut in salaries. Of course some have, but many have not. That is a double standard.

When Canadians hear of that party doing that kind of thing, it will have no credibility. It has very little credibility today.

One of the members said this morning that if the current plan had continued that member would have received $1.2 million, if that member lived long enough, but if it had been done through private investment it would have been roughly half of that, $600,000. I stand here today hoping very much that I will be able to retire and receive $600,000 over a lifetime. The way I figure it, I will be over 80 years old before that happens to me.

Those are the kinds of misleading statements that inflame the passions of Canadians. It is erroneous logic. They take one particular example and try to pretend that it belongs to everyone. That is the kind of nonsense we are facing here today. I am disappointed.

There is another example. A motion was proposed by the Reform Party to not have this bill go forward. Is that not somewhat contradictory? There are going to be changes made that are going to save Canadian taxpayers money, and that party wants to hoist it, stop it. If the Reform Party is so concerned about changes, let us go forward. Let us move. Let us go now.

This is the party that on a very serious matter called for quorum, knowing full well that there are members just behind the curtain who are having lunch. This is the kind of seriousness they apply to this debate.

This is the party that talks about opting out. It is not a question of opting out; it is a question of opting in. Members can opt in. The suggestion was that it was only available to Reform MPs. It is available to whoever chooses to do it out of the class of '93. Let us get with it. Let us deal with the facts.

I am pleased to observe that many colleagues spoke of the need for changes to the MP pension plan in the last Parliament, both here and outside of the House. I am delighted to note today that we are in fact going forward with Bill C-85, which delivers on the government's red book commitments to reform MP pensions to end double dipping and to set a minimum age at which pensions under the plan may be paid. Those were the promises that were made, but we did not stop there; we went beyond. In fact, Bill C-85 goes further than the red book commitments.

Of course that is not good enough for Reformers, because they want to exploit the situation. They would have exploited it even if it had been removed. They would have found something to say about it.

This bill will also reduce the pension benefit accrual rate under the MPs pension plan. In the future, instead of an average sessional indemnity of 5 per cent for each year of service, members will accrue benefits at a rate of 4 per cent of their average income over a 6-year period. That represents a 20 per cent reduction. But, of course, Reform members say this is nothing.

That 20 per cent reduction clearly shows the government's firm intention to cut spending, as well as the will of parliamentarians to make sacrifices like the rest of Canadians to help put our fiscal house in order.

I am proud to see that, once passed, the proposed amendments will result in a 33 per cent reduction of the cost, for taxpayers, of MP pensions. That 33 per cent reduction translates into savings of over $3 million for 1995 alone.

I want to congratulate the Prime Minister, as well as the hon. member for York Centre and President of the Treasury Board, for their role in this respect.

The proposed legislation includes another important element. Some members objected to the fact that MPs' participation in the pension plan is compulsory. They suggested that, if allowed to do so, they would withdraw from the plan.

The Prime Minister responded by promising MPs that they would be free to participate or not in the pension plan. Bill C-85 follows up on that commitment.

It is on the subject of optional participation in the pension plan that I wish to focus my remarks today. Hon. members have asked for that choice and will now be given it. It is a serious choice, with long term consequences, and I urge all hon. members to give the choice very careful consideration. In contemplating their decision, members should bear in mind the amendments of the bill will bring about features of the pension plan which some have found to be objectionable.

We are eliminating double dipping. Pensions based on future service will not be paid before a former member has reached 55 years of age. MP pension benefits are being pared down and taxpayers' costs will decrease significantly.

When Bill C-85 is given royal assent, a 60-day clock will start ticking; a 60-day period for passage of the bill within which members of the House will be able to make an option to continue their participation as pension plan members.

This is a one time opportunity. Hon. members who fail to sign and deliver their option to participate form within the 60-day time frame will cease to be pension plan members and their contributions to the MP pension plan account will be refunded to them.

In a few minutes I will speak further of the consequences of discontinuing plan participation. Now I wish to concentrate on the process of maintaining membership under the plan. I am informed that administrative officials of the House will contact each member immediately following passage of this bill. Advice and information on the option process will be provided and each member will be furnished with an option form on which they may specify their interest in continuing pension plan membership.

Each member who wishes to stay under the pension plan must complete the option form and return it to the House administration within 60 days of the royal assent day. This is a critical deadline and must not be missed by any member who chooses to maintain their status as a member of the MP pension scheme.

Therefore, I caution hon. members they should ensure they receive their option form and complete and return it before the deadline if they wish to stay under the plan.

I will complete and return this option form. I will continue to participate in the MPs pension plan. I have a wife and three children, and I want to ensure their future in the best possible way. Given the comments he made outside this House, I know that the President of the Treasury Board will also choose to stay under the plan. That plan is just one element of the global compensation package for MPs.

I also wish to point out that, according to independent studies, that plan is not overly generous. I am of the opinion that all members of this House work very hard and put in long hours. They earn their pay. My colleague from Richelieu proved the point in his speech this morning when he made the comparison between us and other parliamentary jurisdictions in Canada.

Let us not forget that past governments have consistently promoted retirement savings. Retirement plans are an important part of retirement planning. These plans provide substantial protection for people against the unforeseen, such as death or infirmity.

Lastly, the financial protection of MPs' survivors in case of death should be a central consideration in their decision whether to opt out of a parliamentary pension.

In my case, if I did not complete my term, basically, if I died, my wife and family would receive 60 per cent of the pension to which I would have been entitled. Partners and children must not be forgotten.

Notwithstanding the considerations which I have just outlined, I know there are members of the House who have

committed themselves to terminating their plan membership. Some of these members may already have other arrangements in place for their retirement and their survivors. Perhaps some are sufficiently wealthy that they need have no concern about their economic security or their family's in later years. There are some who will use their termination of plan membership as a political statement.

Whatever their reasons, I need to respect and I will respect their right to choose. The Prime Minister promised them the choice and now they will have it.

I hope hon. members planning to cease their participation in the MPs pension plan will consult with their families before making their final decision. This is a decision which will directly affect members' families as well as members themselves. Members should be aware of all of the consequences withdrawal from the pension plan will entail, particularly the consequences their choice will leave on their loved ones.

This will be a permanent choice. Those making a political statement with that choice will be bound by that statement. There will be no going back. Pension contributions will be refunded and periods of service in respect of which those refunds are paid or future periods where no contributions will have been made may never in future be counted under the pension plan.

Hon. members who fail to opt into the plan will remain as non-members for as long as they continue to serve in Parliament without a break in service. This will be the case whether they continue to serve in this honourable House or in the upper chamber.

I would once again advise MPs who are considering opting out of their pension plan to look carefully at the other pension vehicles available to them. They should also prepare for the unforeseen, such as infirmity, and consider the financial future of their survivors should they die.

If we were to sacrifice the coverage provided for under the parliamentary pension plan, what coverage would replace it and at what cost? We should all make an educated choice. I must insist that we cannot make such decisions without knowing beforehand all of the ramifications.

As I mentioned earlier, MPs who opt out of their pension plan will receive a full reimbursement of their contributions within 60 days of Bill C-85 receiving Royal Assent. I will take this opportunity to explain the terms and conditions of this refund.

For hon. members who joined the House for the first time at or after the beginning of this Parliament, on or after October 25, 1993, the process is quite straightforward. Members who fail to opt into the plan will be paid a refund of all of their pension contributions. For members with parliamentary service which occurred before October 25, 1993 the process is slightly more complicated. It depends on whether as of October 25, 1993 they were vested members under the pension plan.

To digress momentarily, under our pension plan a member of Parliament is considered to be a vested pension plan member upon completion of six years of service. Therefore when I speak of members who were vested as of October 25, 1993 I refer to those of my hon. colleagues who as of that date had been members for at least six years.

Under the bill a member who was not vested as of October 25, 1993, that is a member who did not have six years of service as of that date, and refrains from opting into the plan within the 60 days immediately following royal assent, will also be paid a refund of all of the pension contributions he or she has paid. This would include contributions made both before and after October 25, 1993.

If the member was vested as of October 25, 1993, the refund will be restricted to those pension contributions paid since that date. In this latter case, contributions paid for the six or more years of service which occurred prior to October 25, 1993 will be retained in the pension account to provide upon the member's eventual retirement from Parliament the vested pension benefit earned in respect of those years.

And since our pension contributions are paid into two different accounts, I must digress again.

The last time the pension plan for parliamentarians was amended, this was done to comply with pension plan registration rules provided under the Income Tax Act. As of January 1, 1992, parliamentarians have contributed to the basic retirement account and to an account referred to as the Retirement Compensation Arrangements Account.

Contributions to the basic account will be used to pay retirement allowances earned pursuant to Part I of the Members of Parliament Retiring Allowances Act, in other words, that part of the pension plan for parliamentarians that complies with the tax provisions governing registered retirement plans.

As for contributions made to the Retirement Compensation Arrangements Account, pursuant to Part II of the Act, these will be used to pay that portion of retirement allowances earned under the plan which exceed the maximum allowed for registered plans under the Income Tax Act.

Here I would like to say, in passing, that all employers in Canada may offer their employees a non-registered supplementary retirement plan similar to the retirement compensation arrangement.

In instances where refunds of pension contributions are to be paid to plan members, all contributions paid before January 1, 1992 may, if the member so wishes, be rolled over on a tax exempt basis to another registered retirement vehicle such as the registered retirement savings plan. For the sake of precision that would be in respect of members who had service before October 25, 1993 but who were not vested as of that date together with 4 per cent of sessional indemnities paid to the basic account under part I of the act since January 1, 1992.

Members wishing to roll over the contributions to an RRSP should consult administrative officials of the House for information on the forms and the process for effecting such a transfer.

However, since the retirement compensation arrangement is not an RRSP instrument, contributions paid into the RCA account pursuant to Part II of the Act cannot be rolled over to an RRSP. Consequently, members who decide to opt out of the retirement plan will receive directly the amounts they had contributed since January 1, 1992 to the RCA account, in other words, 7 per cent of sessional indemnities. Refunds of contributions to the RCA account will be taxed at source as income, to be declared by the member as part of his taxable income for the year in which the refund was made.

There is one last point I would like to make. I would like to explain another consequence of a member's opting out of the retirement plan and the resulting refund of contributions. Every year, a so-called pension adjustment is calculated on the basis of our regular contributions, and this figure is then communicated to Revenue Canada. This amount reflects the value of the retirement benefits we have earned through our contributions in a given year. This pension adjustment is then used for tax purposes, to calculate our maximum annual RRSP contribution, if any.

However, and this will be my last comment, under the Income Tax Act, a member who elects to recover contributions paid into the pension plan for parliamentarians will not be able to recover RRSP contribution entitlements he could not use during those years when he contributed to the pension plan for parliamentarians.

I am sorry, I would have liked to add certain other things, but my time is up.

[Lee Morrison, Reform, Swift Current—Maple Creek—Assiniboia, SK]

Madam Speaker, I was very interested in the remarks of the member for St. Boniface.

It is really quite amazing the passion a member can arouse in himself when driven by unmitigated greed.

I would take issue with some of the remarks he threw this way with respect to the consultation of families, for example. I think most people in this caucus consulted their families. They also consulted their constituents. The net result that obviously arose was that people said: "Thou shalt not steal". We are in this, and we are in it together.

The hon. member also made remarks about whether or not certain members of the Reform Party had given up this perk or that perk or had made certain sacrifices. I gave up my 10 per cent. That has nothing to do with this debate, nothing whatsoever. I occasionally eat in the parliamentary dining room. So what? I never said I would not. So what are they driving at? We are talking about a multimillion dollar rip-off of the Canadian public and the hon. member is talking about trash.

I would like to ask the hon. member, since he is so critical of others in saying what did you give up or what sacrifice have you made, what has the hon. member given up? What sacrifice has he made? Can he name one thing?

[Ronald J. Duhamel, Liberal, St. Boniface, MB]

Madam Speaker, I should note to my hon. colleague that I am always passionate in debate. This is no exception. To suggest, which Reformers are often prone to do, that I became passionate about this subject because of a greed factor is really a low blow. I believe it is beyond a member's stature, or should be, in the House of Commons.

To suggest this is about thou shalt not steal, from the Bible, to invoke that in this debate, to suggest this is stealing, is below being low. And to use terms such as trough to try to excite the passions of people simply for political gain is even lower still.

When I mentioned the parliamentary restaurant, flying executive class, et cetera, why did I do that? Because that party is double-talk; that party pretends one thing and does other things.

That party is exploiting this issue-not all members, but some-because it has no issue. The polls are so bad that it virtually does not exist. That party's members are flailing about, trying to find something that will capture the imagination of people. That is the party which comes forward with a budget that has no sense at all, that is absolutely denounced by virtually anyone who knows anything about budgets.

[Lee Morrison, Reform, Swift Current—Maple Creek—Assiniboia, SK]

Name one.

[Ronald J. Duhamel, Liberal, St. Boniface, MB]

Name one? I stood in this House and I mentioned at least a dozen credible sources that denounced that pretend budget, which did not even add up. This is why Reformers have no credibility.

That party tries to use in B.C. the aboriginal land claim situation in order to further its political agenda. It is the kind of party that will seize upon any issue in order to try to further its political agenda. It is not fair; it does not try to be fair. It did not listen to our colleague's comments from the Bloc when he set out the statistics and showed this particular reduction is an important one, which puts us in line with a number of other provincial legislatures.

[Bob Mills, Reform, Red Deer, AB]

How about Alberta? It is zero.

[Ronald J. Duhamel, Liberal, St. Boniface, MB]

Oh, Alberta. Okay.

That party would not acknowledge that during the last three Parliaments almost 60 per cent of the MPs who were here are not receiving a pension today. That party pretends everybody is getting a large pension. If I were walking out today my pension would be in the $19,000 range. If I were to die today, that would be one-third less for my wife and three kids. That is the kind of party that would like to see that kind of remuneration. I have no time for that.

[An hon. member]

Can you not look after yourself?

[The Acting Speaker (Mrs. Maheu)]

Order. I would like to request that the House take a little time and think about some of the comments being made to colleagues. It is a very emotional issue for a lot of us. I think we have to stop and think before we fling comments back and forth across this House.

[Charlie Penson, Reform, Peace River, AB]

Madam Speaker, today we are here to debate an act to amend the Members of Parliament Retiring Allowances Act. Canadians know this as the MP pension plan. That is what we are really talking about today. I am happy to rise and make some comments about the MP pension plan that is being introduced.

Unfortunately, it is not as good as the model that was brought forward by the President of the Treasury Board in December. But he was not able to sell that plan to his Liberal caucus, and now we see the results: an MPs' pension plan that is being introduced today that is still obscene because it is twice as rich as any public sector or private sector pension plan.

During the run up to the election of 1993, when I was seeking the nomination and I was out campaigning I heard from my constituents in Peace River over and over and over again on this. It was the issue that captured my attention and the attention of all other politicians from all other parties who were campaigning there. They heard from the Canadian public and the public in Peace River that MPs have a pension plan that is a double standard with what most Canadians can receive, either in the public or private sector.

That to me has developed a very cynical electorate out there. There were a number of new members elected to the House in the election. One reason they were elected is because the public is very cynical about politicians. This used to be a noble calling. That is not the way the Canadian public regards it any more.

I have to tell members a story about one of the first meetings I attended as a politician after my nomination. It said a lot about how people regard politicians and politics and the reason for it. I was speaking at a small community meeting of about 40 people. I had spoken for about 10 or 15 minutes and then we stopped to have coffee. I was circulating and talking to different members of the audience. One fellow about 75 years old, a rancher type who had spent a lot of time outdoors, a weathered and very interesting fellow, came up to me and we had a very interesting conversation for about four or five minutes. Finally, he was going to take his leave and wish me well and say goodbye. The comments he made I thought were very relevant. He said: "You know, Charlie, I wish I had met you before you went into politics. I think I would have liked you".

That says a lot about how people regard politicians these days. One reason for that degree of cynicism about politicians is that they see we have double standards. The double standard that is most obvious, I believe, is the MP pension plan.

During the course of the campaign I think I heard only one comment about MPs' salaries. It was not an issue. People think that MPs should be paid well. But they do not believe they should get a pension plan that is five or six times more generous than that of the average person in the public. And that is what we are addressing here today.

This pension plan is a step in the right direction. Like so much of the legislation the party across brings forward, this is a step in the right direction but it is not far enough.

[An hon. member]

It is a small step.

[Charlie Penson, Reform, Peace River, AB]

I think we have to examine the past plan. Let us do a comparison. As I said, we only had to be in the House for two terms or six years to be eligible for the MP pension plan under the previous plan, which is five or six times more generous than the average Canadian private sector or public sector plan.

So what is introduced in the new pension plan, the one that is going to correct the problem? We have a pension plan where we are still eligible at age 55. That does not seem to fit with most public and private plans. It certainly is not the case with the old age security. In fact, we are talking about moving that to age 67, since the plan cannot be sustained.

What else do we have? We still have a plan that is two and a half or three times more generous than the average public or private sector plan. It does not fit. It is not acceptable.

What about the future? We know there is an opting out formula in the plan of 60 days for those members who wish to opt out. I am one of the members who wants to, and I certainly will. But that will not apply to future MPs. They do not have that option. Why not? It would seem to me it is a reasonable option to put in there. Anybody who wants to look after their own retirement should be able to do so, but not under this plan as far as future MPs are concerned. They will be obliged to belong. There again is a problem.

We had the minister and some other members stand in this House this morning trying to justify the new plan that is being brought forward. As I said, there are many reasons why the Canadian public is not going to accept this.

All of this is happening at a time when politicians need to show strong leadership in this country. It is a time when we have a record federal debt: $550 billion and growing at the rate of $120 million a day. It is time for MPs to stand up and show leadership. What would that mean? It would mean accepting a plan that is the average of what most Canadians have. Is that too much to expect from leadership in this country? I do not believe it is.

We have Canada's official loyal opposition-what do those members intend to do with this plan? It seems very ironic that those members, with the expressed goal of wanting to opt out of Canada, as they tell us every day in this House, want to opt into the new MPs' pension plan. I do not understand the logic. It must mean that they plan on staying longer than they originally had intended. It seems to me that is a real contradiction. I cannot understand why they would not want to take the opt out formula along with the rest of us in the Reform Party.

[John Williams, Reform, St. Albert, AB]

They want to opt out of the country but stay in the pension plan.

[Charlie Penson, Reform, Peace River, AB]

Let us examine the rhetoric from this side of the House when the members who are over on the government side now were over here. We had the famous rat pack. I think we all know who they are. They enjoy some of the front benches over there now. What did they say? They called for a change to the MP pension plan. My understanding is that when the President of the Treasury Board brought in what was a reasonable plan in December to the Liberal caucus, they were the ones who led the charge against it. So the rat pack it seems has become the fat cat pack these days. We see this every day.

Who is going to be the judge of this MP pension plan? It is not me as the member for Peace River, in the final analysis. It is not going to be the member for St. Boniface. It is going to be the Canadian public, the voters, our constituents.

The member for St. Boniface said that we should carefully consider and consult our family members when and if we decide to opt out. He would seem to suggest that we have not been doing that. Well I do not believe that other members of the Reform Party caucus did not consult their families. I know I certainly did, and it was a joint decision. However, it becomes more than consulting family. I also consulted constituents. I have been doing it for a long time. And constituents tell us that this plan is still far too generous.

The member also seemed to lump the business of pay and salary into the MP pension plan. It is all part and parcel as far as he is concerned. I do not believe it is. I believe that if we have a problem or we do not believe the pay is high enough for a member of Parliament, we should deal with that issue up front and involve the Canadian public in that discussion. This is a separate matter altogether, and it has to be dealt with that way.

The member for St. Boniface also talked about the RRSP. He suggested that the Canadian taxpayer would be on the hook for more money through a loss in taxes if we went the route of all members opting out and using the RRSP. There is certainly some merit in what he says, but it is not making special rules; it is following rules under the RRSP program that other Canadians are under. So we are all in the same category. That is talking about having the same standard for everybody.

I know that many members of our caucus intend to use that route once we are able to access our money that is being currently collected under the MP pension plan, the 11 per cent that is being deducted, to put it into RRSPs. Many of us have been doing that for a long time. I think it shows leadership in the fact that we are willing to look after our own retirement. That is what a lot of Canadians are going to have to do in the future, because the old age security plan and Canada pension plan are not sustainable. The reason they are not sustainable is that this country is in very serious financial problems.

I know the Minister of Finance recognized that to some degree in his budget when he suggested that we need to cut $4 billion in services to Canadians. He also said we should raise a billion dollars in taxes. It was very interesting that in doing so we would almost expect the federal budget for this year to be decreased by $5 billion, the amount of those cuts and the extra money that is being raised. In fact, the budget is going to be higher by almost half a billion dollars. Why is that? It is because the interest on the debt is starting to be a very serious problem in this country. It is taking a larger and larger portion of our government budget.

It is eating into those necessary services we are talking about, both the Canada pension plan and old age security. We need to encourage people to look after themselves through their own retirement savings. That does not mean the Government of

Canada is doing it for them, such as the MPs. It means that they look after themselves through RRSPs and any other private plan they can put in place.

I am going to wrap up here. To me, the most important thing is that the Canadian public will be the final judge of this plan. If cautions are going to be issued by members across the way in regard to the seriousness of opting out, we should also be cognizant that the Canadian public is watching very closely what is happening in this Chamber today during this debate on the MPs pension plan.

The public wants a plan that is reasonable, that is consistent with national standards for both the public and private sectors, not anything MPs give themselves over and above what is the norm in Canadian society. The public will be the final judge next election day. I throw that out as a caution to members opposite.

[John Harvard, Liberal, Winnipeg—St. James, MB]

Madam Speaker, it is always difficult to speak on a subject like this, especially if you try to defend the pension plan for members of Parliament. Your adversaries will always try to paint you as being self-serving.

I have been in opposition. I know it is very easy for members of the Reform Party to stand and accuse anyone who might defend any elements of the pension plan as being self-serving and greedy. It does not take any bravery on their part to say the outrageous things they have said.

The previous speaker just said that political life at one time was seen in a good light, that it was a noble calling, but not any more. I wonder why. It is because people from the political right, members of the Reform Party have made it their calling day in and day out, month in and month out, year in and year out to go around and say how bad politicians are, how bad this institution is, how bad democracy is. It is little wonder when a band of people like that goes around this country year in and year out bad mouthing this institution that some Canadians say: "Gee, I guess it is true".

[Elwin Hermanson, Reform, Kindersley—Lloydminster, SK]

It is true.

[John Harvard, Liberal, Winnipeg—St. James, MB]

It is a sad comment.

[Elwin Hermanson, Reform, Kindersley—Lloydminster, SK]

That is why they sent us here. You guys are never here.

[John Harvard, Liberal, Winnipeg—St. James, MB]

Do you want to listen to me or not?

[Elwin Hermanson, Reform, Kindersley—Lloydminster, SK]

It is because of you guys that we are here.

[The Acting Speaker (Mrs. Maheu)]

Order. It is unfortunate that the level of emotion remains extremely high. I ask you once again to remember that we are in the House of Commons. We have a high level of integrity toward one another. May I ask that we maintain a certain level of decorum.