Debates of May 4th, 1995

Members Of Parliament Retiring Allowances Act

[Jim Silye, Reform, Calgary Centre, AB]

I will applaud once the other side understands what double dipping is.

The thing I would like to point out is the Reform Party's criticism of the MP pension. It is three tier, trough regular for all the old MPs, trough light for all the rookies who are too weak and lack the fortitude to stand up to the veterans, and the trough stout, all the extra perks and privileges this pension provides to those cabinet ministers where there is no cap on what they contribute on their extra salary.

This three tier pension plan is unacceptable to the Canadian public we believe simply because it sets a double standard, one for politicians, MPs and senators, and one for the private sector. The reason it is so high is they say the salary is low. I have heard today about the sacrifice of the family, the children and the grandchildren and it is something they build toward. I do not deny those emotional arguments.

On the same emotional basis why not come clean with the Canadian public and simply state the compensation package should be addressed? We should not have three or four different sets of rules. Let us clean it up. Let us pay politicians what we believe they are worth or what they deserve.

[Gar Knutson, Liberal, Elgin—Norfolk, ON]

Give us a number.

[Jim Silye, Reform, Calgary Centre, AB]

Twelve thousand dollars a month and then look after your own pension plan. This is my point of view.

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. Kilger)]

Order. I am again trying to maintain the best parliamentary debate possible. I encourage members to address themselves through the chair. In the event that we get to question and comments they will have an opportunity to debate the last intervention.

[Jim Silye, Reform, Calgary Centre, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I appreciate those comments. You remind me of my football coach who said that if you have rabbit ears you will never be a success in this business. I believe that should apply in the House as well.

As of today I will no longer have rabbit ears. I will only focus my comments to you and through you to the other side and to the public.

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. Kilger)]

I cannot pass it up. Maybe it is the hour. I know all of us make promises. I know we do our best, our darndest, to meet each and every one of those.

[Jim Silye, Reform, Calgary Centre, AB]

Thank you, coach-I mean, Mr. Speaker.

I want to explain to voters what is happening. The Reform Party wants a proper pension plan commensurate with the private sector, compensation for MPs at a level that the sacrifice is compensated for. The salaries are too low. The pensions are far too great. We should have a balance between the two. That is what we are recommending.

We are trying to debate this fully. We want to see full disclosure on all the items in this pension plan so the Canadian public understands it.

The government today introduced a motion to extend the hours of debate. It wants us to use up all our speakers so it can rush this through to committee so the Canadian public does not

get an opportunity to see what is in it, to understand the full message about the pension plan.

I would not be surprised if in the future as this bill works its way through the system, the Liberals use time allocation on this bill. I will predict the Liberals will use time allocation on Bill C-85, the pension plan bill. That is totally unworthy of government members who pride themselves on parliamentary reform, integrity and restoring integrity to the government like they said they would. It is the lowest of low tricks they can do in a democracy when they are too afraid to let debate on a sensitive issue take its normal, full and natural course.

This is what is happening tonight. We have tried to not lose the opportunity to allow our members to speak to this bill, to point out why they appreciate the opportunity to opt out, why they like the fact they can lead by example and perhaps through this mechanism restore some integrity to this whole fiasco of the gold plated MP pension plan.

We would appreciate if the government would allow proper debate to continue. We would appreciate if the government would stop playing these games with extended hours and if we could go ahead and live our normal day and work it out properly. There is a lot of time if it would follow the normal procedure.

What is the rush? If you had a good bill, Mr. Speaker, would you not be proud to present it before the Canadian public for as long and as often as you could, to get the credit for it if you could? Would you not do that, Mr. Speaker? Would you not be proud and hold your head up high to be able to show the people of Canada what a great pension plan you had introduced? I know I would.

If the Liberals want to rush it through, want to get it through committee, do not want to have the proper amount of time on it and introduce time allocation, that will be the proof they are embarrassed by the little they have done on it. They are embarrassed by how weak their legislation is and that they have not totally and fully used the benefit of all the arguments of all the members of the House.

Therefore I will conclude my comments on the subamendment to Bill C-85.

[Harold Culbert, Liberal, Carleton—Charlotte, NB]

Mr. Speaker, members on this side of the House are very much used to working 7 a.m. to 11 p.m., seven days a week if necessary. If the member has a problem with working evenings we can appreciate that, but that is not the government's way of doing things. The way on this side of the House is that we work hard, we continue to work hard from 7 a.m. to 11 p.m., seven days a week on behalf of our constituents.

When we are not in the House we are in our offices or in our constituencies doing constituency work on behalf of our constituents. I challenge the member to indicate what the problem is working here this evening for whatever time it takes. We are listening to the comments being made from the other side of the House, as ridiculous as some may be. We are open to listen to them. We are prepared to work. Are they not prepared to work whatever hours it may take? We will be here.

[Jim Silye, Reform, Calgary Centre, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I will accept that comment as the cheap shot that it is. We are not at all afraid to work late hours. We have done so often. I will also predict we will be the only ones putting up speakers. The Liberals want us to exhaust all of our speakers. They will not have any speaker on this. They will not have a member rise and speak for 20 minutes on the MP pension. They will not have a member rise and speak on the MP pension tonight for 10 minutes. They are here to exhaust our speakers. They are playing a game.

When the member said he works hard for his constituency, every member of the House works hard for their constituency regardless of their political view point, regardless of where they stand on an issue. I do not think they work hard; they work long. We put in a lot of hours. The people who do the hard work are those who do the research, who dig out the facts, who have to get our messages out through communications.

We are the spokespersons. We have to put in long hours. The cheap shots notwithstanding, the debate on the MP pension plan should be focused on how we can make it better. That is what an opposition party is here for. We are trying to be constructive. We are trying to point out the flaws. We are trying to show where it is weak. They do not have to listen if they do not want to. They do not have to make any changes if they do not want to. It is obvious they do not. However, we are happy to opt out. We are proud to opt out because we know it is the right thing. If they do not opt out they will get voted out.

[Peter Milliken, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to Leader of the Government in the House of Commons]

Mr. Speaker, the hon. member seems to be suggesting that sitting late is somehow unfair.

[Jim Abbott, Reform, Kootenay East, BC]

Unnecessary.

[Peter Milliken, Liberal, Kingston and the Islands, ON]

The hon. member says it is unnecessary. We have made very little progress this week on government legislation. We expected to get two or three bills done yesterday afternoon but we did not get any.

Tuesday was an opposition day. On Monday we expected to get two bills. We got one motion to a vote which, as I recall, was on an amendment. The motion to set up a special joint committee to study ethics was opposed particularly by the Reform Party. It has been stalled and is not happening now. We have a tremendous number of bills to deal with. The government is anxious to move on with its legislative agenda.

Because we have had very good co-operation until the last few weeks we did not feel it necessary to sit late very often. Hon. members will note we did not. However, now that we have an extremely heavy agenda, dozens of bills waiting to be dealt with, it seemed only reasonable that we allow members to express their views on a bill to which we recognize there is significant opposition from Reform Party members who for various reasons do not like this bill. Some of us have views on what those reasons are but I will not go into that on a comment.

[Jim Abbott, Reform, Kootenay East, BC]

Why not?

[Peter Milliken, Liberal, Kingston and the Islands, ON]

I would not want to bore the House or impugn motives to members as they have done in respect of some of the members on this side of the House in the debate.

However, it is fair that we give members every opportunity to express their views. One of the things we do not like doing is cutting off debate. Often, as the hon. member knows, when we have used time allocation in the past we have offered to sit late to avoid having to use time allocation so members could get an opportunity to express their views. That is exactly what we are doing tonight.

I want to ensure that all members who want to express their opinion on this bill are given a good opportunity to do so. Sitting late tonight gives all members that opportunity. They may have to leave their office or skip the movie they were going to go to, but most of us are here until 11 o'clock at night anyway working, so it is no problem and we are happy to stay and listen to hon. members.

[Jim Silye, Reform, Calgary Centre, AB]

Mr. Speaker, the issue is not sitting late or working late. The issue is giving proper time to a proper audience. Debate is progress. Being heard is progress. Passing bills is not necessarily progress. All the bills the government has introduced do not have all the answers or all the solutions, notwithstanding the Liberals may think they do and notwithstanding that all the years they were in opposition they now feel they have a licence to go ahead with any legislation they wish to. Therefore, they really do not like to have input from opposition members. That is what democracy is all about.

If in this bill we have the opportunity to point out those elements we feel will make the bill better, which is by making it closer as much as we can to what is available in the private sector, in a way we are hurting ourselves because if they did that they more than likely will get voted back in at the next election. I am sort of in a conflict here. I do not know if I should be giving them this advice.

Nevertheless, I do so on behalf of Canadians who work hard. Politicians are not a better class of people. They are not better than the people who voted them in. They are not a cut above the rest. Why we have this double standard in so many areas of this MP pension plan, why we have double standards in so many other areas like the travel allowance for MPs, 37 cents instead of 31 cents, which is allowable in the private sector, is what makes the public suspect of the motives of politicians.

The government was elected on a promise in the red book that it would restore integrity to politicians. Instead of doing that, they just give lip service and use all the tricks of the standing orders at their disposal to push bills through without proper debate. They want to do it at times when certain members are not here who would like to speak to it.

All the things they went through when they were in opposition they are trying to take advantage of on a Thursday evening when those key people who would like to speak to this are not available. This is what I do not like. I feel that it is totally uncalled for.

There were a lot of emotional comments made today, but the main issue was missed. That is, the government is not listening to the people. It is not listening to the taxpayers, who feel that the pension plan is too generous. The taxpayer is not saying that the salary is too high. They are not asking us to take a salary cut. They are saying make what government and politicians do equal to what is in the private sector.

Yes, we have an important job now. And yes, the Canadian public expects us to lead. But they also expect us to lead by example. If there is a double standard and we treat ourselves better than the public sector can treat itself, is that setting a good example? Is that what government members will be proud of when they go back to their constituencies, that they fought for a pension plan that is better than those of their constituents? Is that what they want to do?

I for one do not want do that. That is why I stand before government members in debate to point out that our party would like to have them listen to what voters are saying. But the government is not listening. This is an opportunity. It might be the last opportunity if they keep forcing these tricks on the House.

[Don Boudria, Liberal, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I enter the debate with some reluctance. However, I must say that the whip or the caucus co-ordinator, or whatever it is one is supposed to call the person who has that job in the Reform Party, has just said I am supposed to call the person the hon. member. The hon. member talks about cheap shots after standing for 20 minutes in the House calling the government everything under the sun and impugning the motives of the government.

One of the last things the whip of the Reform Party said tonight was that the government was using a procedural trick. Who introduced today a dilatory motion, the purpose of which is to not read the bill?

[Peter Milliken, Liberal, Kingston and the Islands, ON]

The Reform Party.

[Don Boudria, Liberal, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

Yes, the Reform Party, as my hon. colleague said.

So if moving procedural tricks is the wrong thing to do, I have to ask why the whip of the Reform Party made these disparaging remarks against the member for Beaver River.

[Peter Milliken, Liberal, Kingston and the Islands, ON]

It is the pot calling the kettle black.

[Don Boudria, Liberal, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

It is the pot calling the kettle black. That is exactly what it is.

I think that what has been said here has not been thoroughly researched. But we all know, of course, that Reform Party research is an oxymoron. One can never be equivalent to the other. They are diametrically opposed.

We have heard again from the same member that we should be leading by example. Now, I ask myself the following question. Is this the same political party that is asking us to lead by example when the leader of that party had a limousine provided to him by the government and he said he did not want the limousine, then reconsidered the position? He ordered the limousine and had the staff of public works, or whoever does these things, wax the car and bring it here. It took a day or two of work to get it all prepared. Then he did a giant publicity stunt with the car, which had already been sent back. He made a presentation of giving the keys back and put a "for sale" sign in the window of the car. It probably cost thousands of dollars at the expense of the government to orchestrate that scene.

Now, as if that was not bad enough, someone said that the ultimate result was that he got rid of the car. That is what you think. No siree, Mr. Speaker. He had a limousine subsidized by the taxpayers through the back door of the Reform Party provided to him after refusing the first limousine in the publicity stunt I have just described.

Those are the people who talk to us about leading by example and governing with integrity. Yes, those are the same people.

Let us talk a bit more about governing with integrity. Let us talk about what I would qualify as suitable leadership. Yes, the leader of the Reform Party decided that he wanted a 15 per cent pay cut, but he had his suits bought by the Reform Party in order to supplement his income. That is leading by example. Mr. Speaker, do your constituents or do my constituents receive subsidized suits? Hardly. If they did they would probably be a taxable benefit. I wonder if it is a taxable benefit for the member of the Reform Party. Perhaps some of our colleagues in the House who are accountants can enlighten us on that subject.

Let us develop that a bit further. The leader of the Reform Party, from what we were told, is also receiving, thanks to the taxpayers of Canada, contributions to his RRSP and all sorts of other things like that. If that is not bad enough, some Reform Party members said they were taking a 15 per cent pay cut. I know their performance has not been all that great, but to say that it was only 85 per cent as valuable as everyone else's, not even I would go that far. Let us assume that they were worth the same amount as other MPs, which I know is a debatable point.

We had the following situation. Some of them did this and some of them did not. And then the whole thing was reversed because, as they said in a press interview, the people were not appreciating it sufficiently. They did not change their minds because it was wrong or right, but because they did not get the right amount of publicity.

[Lee Morrison, Reform, Swift Current—Maple Creek—Assiniboia, SK]

Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order. Is there not a House rule that requires speakers to keep to the subject? I thought we were debating Bill C-85 and the amendments thereto.

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. Kilger)]

The hon. member for Swift Current-Maple Creek-Assiniboia raises an issue that is often raised in this House with regard to relevance. Of course in a speech of a potential maximum of 20 minutes, sometimes members take a little longer than others to get to the actual point in debate. But I am sure that the speech of the hon. member for Glengarry-Prescott-Russell, who is an experienced parliamentarian, will certainly be relevant to the bill that is before the House.

[Don Boudria, Liberal, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I am reminded that we are discussing the pay and benefit package of MPs. Of course that is what I was addressing in this House. I know that I was addressing the pay and benefits of Reform MPs-

[Lee Morrison, Reform, Swift Current—Maple Creek—Assiniboia, SK]

Mr. Speaker, I rise on the same point of order. The hon. member says that we are discussing pay and benefits. There is nothing about pay in the bill. We are discussing pensions, period.

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. Kilger)]

I do not believe that is a point of order. We are getting into debate.