It may have to be changed but, for the time being, this bill is a step forward. I hope that the other provinces will also take this step. A different reality may force us to take other measures. The situation facing pensioners today has changed from what it was 15 years ago. Adjustments are being made.
Take Quebec, where the rule is age plus years of service, with a minimum age of 50. The same principle is applied in Ontario: age plus years of service, with a minimum age of 55. Our situation is similar to that of the provinces, which often offer more generous plans. Manitoba abolished its plan but replaced it with a collective RRSP which will be able to offer more or less the same terms. I believe the hon. member for Hull-Aylmer, just next door, did a comparative study on the subject which showed that after 12 years, a collective RRSP was more attractive than our own system.
In Saskatchewan, the minimum age is again 55. In British Columbia, the minimum age is 55 and the rule is age plus a number of years of service. The minimum age is 55 in the Yukon and the Northwest Territories, and to be eligible for a pension, members must sit a minimum of seven years in British Columbia, six in the Yukon and six in the Northwest Territories. In other words, our system is very similar to those in the rest of the provinces and, in some cases, is less attractive. It is also very similar to what is offered in other western countries, and I am referring to so-called modern countries, countries with a decent per capita income.
I must admit that the bill also takes into account the current situation and what the taxpayer can afford. Contributions will be cut by 20 per cent. There will be a cut of $3.5 million out of a total $10 million, which means a correction of 33 per cent. However, certain irritants remain in the bill, and I will probably suggest a number of amendments when the bill goes to committee after second reading.
I wonder, for instance, about the decision to reject double dipping. Everyone seems to agree that when you take a former minister-again, the example of Perrin Beatty-and you appoint him president of the CBC, he should not get both his salary from the CBC and his $40,000 to $45,000 pension as a former minister. I think that is pretty obvious, and I want to commend Mr. Beatty for voluntarily giving up his pension before accepting his position at CBC.
I also want to commend Mr. Broadbent who, when his term was renewed not long ago, also gave up his pension for another five years although he was under no obligation to do so, thus complying with the government's intentions and public opinion.
However, we may have a situation where a member who has a political career in Ottawa is penalized when he obtains another position, compared to a former member of one of the provincial legislatures. Senator Prud'homme, for instance. He sat in the House of Commons, he wanted to sit in the Senate and they have to subtract his pension from his salary. Mr. Gauthier sat in the House of Commons. He is now sitting in the Senate, and his member's pension is subtracted from his salary.
However, Mrs. Bacon, a former member of the Quebec legislature who has a minister's pension, receives both her senator's salary and her minister's pension of $40,000 or $45,000.
Take the case of Senator Simard. Since I do not want to play favourites, I will take a Conservative senator as an example. The last two are Conservatives, but Mr. Prud'homme is a former Liberal. Senator Simard has been in the Senate for 10 years or so and receives a pension of about $40,000 as a former minister of New Brunswick. He does not have to subtract it from his salary.
Of course, since we are in a federal jurisdiction our legislation can only cover the federal level. I am delving into, as will the committee, the issues of concern to us. That is why I am not tabling the amendment on whether the following recommendation would be legal: that, when the Prime Minister calls someone in the future to offer him or her a seat in the Senate, the Prime Minister stipulate "I am offering you the seat on condition that you fax me a letter giving your commitment not to collect your pension as a former provincial MP, so that you are at par with the federal MPs". Then, if ever the person is appointed
to the Senate, that person's entitlements would not be any more or less than those of the other senators.
Therefore, that is another underlying problem. I was also wondering about municipal careers. When you appoint someone like Jean Drapeau, the former mayor of Montreal, to the federal public service, he receives a generous pension from Montrealers. The Mayor of Vancouver, with his experience dealing with Asian countries, would also be a potential candidate for the federal public service. He would not have to subtract his municipal pension from his salary. Of course, we are talking about different jurisdictions, but I am pondering the issue anyway.
I am giving the government and the minister the leisure to reflect on this issue and, meanwhile, I will submit it to the committee. It seems to me that this is hypocritical. On the other hand, we must also take into consideration the fact that someone drawing a good pension from Eatons, for example, after working there all of his career, who is appointed to the Senate subsequently would not have a problem. But if his career had been with the provincial government, he would.
It must also be said that the double dipping we are trying to abolish, to which we all agree in principle, penalizes people who, after a career in the federal public service, may entertain appointments as ambassadors or members of a task force on political party funding, for example. This was the case with the Lortie Commission to which former MPs were appointed and with the commission on pension reform. This duty to subtract pensions, this impediment, would make it easier to recruit people with parliamentary experience among former provincial MPs instead of federal MPs.
I do not know how the bill could be amended, I have no proposals or amendments to make, but I do think there is food for thought here.
I would also point out that, in our consideration of this bill, we should remember that members' salaries have been frozen for three or four, if not five, years and will remain frozen until 1997. I will give you an example. I earn $64,000. Eleven years ago, when I started here, I earned $54,000. I have therefore had increases of less than $1,000 a year, or less than $20 a week since I began sitting in the House of Commons. In the years salaries were not frozen, all we got was the cost of living adjustment. When I talk of salary increases, I am including the cost of living adjustment.
Real efforts have been made in terms of salaries. Twice while I have been a member, my salary has been reduced by $1,000 in budget speeches. MPs' salaries are similar to those of MLAs. Earlier, I compared our pension benefits with those of MLAs. I could also have compared salaries. I did so with other countries.
We have seen that the situation of members of Parliament, members of legislative assemblies and western parliamentarians is comparable. Pensions, with the amendments that will be made today, will be comparable, with ours being even sometimes less compared to pension plans in the provinces or in other countries.
This bill is a realistic step forward. It resolves certain issues discrediting the role of members of Parliament. It used to be that we received our pensions at any age and that they were very substantial. It will no longer be the case. These issues, now resolved, used to discredit members of Parliament and often sent those who might be contemplating a career in this noble place running in the opposite direction. The credibility and public image of politicians with fat pensions tended to discourage people from going into politics.
I think that correcting these two irritants can help bring our pay and pension benefits in line with those in the public sector and with politicians' pay and pension benefits in other countries and in the provinces.
In closing, may I remind you that one way for the government to make further cuts may be to question the need for two Houses of Parliament. The other place, since that is how we must refer to it, costs $50 to $60 million. Instead of saving $3 million by adjusting pensions, you would save 20 times as much by eliminating a house which, between us, is totally useless.