Debates of May 4th, 1995

Members Of Parliament Retiring Allowances Act

[Don Boudria, Liberal, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

Mr. Speaker, as I was saying before I was so rudely interrupted, we were discussing the benefits of MPs. The hon. member invoked the rule of relevance, and perhaps discussing what some MPs are worth, particularly the Reform kind, is not really a relevant issue. Perhaps there is some merit to what the member said. However, let us get back to the central issue of the debate. We are discussing how MPs of any political party should be paid.

The salary I get for being an MP is about the same as that of a high school teacher in my constituency. That is fair game. I knew the salary before I got into this, and I accept it. I think I work somewhat longer hours, but that is okay. That is certainly acceptable in my book. I do not ask for anything more. However, I do resent those people who come here and say that we are worth less, that our salaries are too big and that the benefit package

offered to members is too high. These people do the same kinds of things in terms of getting backdoor salaries.

I also resent people who pretend that MPs somehow get too much in the way of pension when they or their own colleagues are getting federal government pensions at the same time as they are sitting in the House of-

[Jim Silye, Reform, Calgary Centre, AB]

Mr. Speaker, on a point of order, I want to clarify that I had just said in my speech that MPs' salaries were too low, not too high.

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. Kilger)]

This is not a point of order. We are engaging in debate. Resuming debate, the hon. member for Glengarry-Prescott-Russell.

[Don Boudria, Liberal, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

Mr. Speaker, it is true that that member invoked a huge pay increase for MPs, so I am not going to say that he asked that the salaries be reduced. But others who spoke not long before he took the floor tonight referred to the fact that we were overpaid.

There are a couple of further points to consider in all of this. One, allegations are made about our so-called golden pension and so on. I know it is not easy to defend one's salary, one's paycheque. It is a lot easier to say no.

I remember those days in the Ontario legislature, where I sat in a previous incarnation. The odd three or four MPs would vote against a pay increase and none of them of course would ever refuse to take the increase once it had been given, in spite of voting against it. We are seeing the same kind of thing going on here.

The bill that we have before us is to reduce MPs' pensions. Whether or not that is a good idea is a matter that is open for debate, but we were elected on a specific program to reduce it. It is a commitment we made. What we are delivering on tonight is in excess of the commitment we made. We were elected on that. Fair game. I could have disagreed or agreed with the individual parts of the red book, but I was elected on the red book and I will vote for that.

At the same time, it does not mean that any of us in this House should cater to the likes of David Somerville of the National Citizens' Coalition, who raises money by printing in the newspaper little pigs saying that little pigs represent MPs and that to cut off their salaries would be a good thing and that if Canadians want those benefits for MPs cut off all they have to do is send their money to David Somerville in a little box, which happens to be at the bottom of the same newspaper ad all the time.

What does he do with that money? I am sure he sticks it in his own pocket. Who is he accountable to? He has an outfit called the National Citizens' Coalition. It is not national. It is not a citizens' coalition. It is nothing of the sort. It is a business. It is run by him and for him for his own benefit. He does not disclose how many members he has. He never discloses any of the names of any members. And he makes no disclosure of the salary he gets from generating these contributions from Canadians. That is not an honest way of doing business.

People know how much I make. People know how much the member across the way makes. And he does not pretend, issuing a press release, that people should send him money so that he can blast David Somerville in Toronto. He would not do that. Neither would I. But he gets away with that, and a few of us cater to that kind of nonsense. It is not right, and it is about time some of us said it.

On the issue of the pension itself as it is today, it is going to be reduced with this bill. I am 45 years old. I have worked in the government all my life. I worked for 14 years as an employee of the federal government. Because I had only nine and a half years of contributions to the pension plan-in the beginning. I was a sessional employee-I had no pension. I had to withdraw my contributions. I was given 2 per cent interest on the money I had invested there. Are they the kinds of funds I would have had in an RRSP? Surely not.

Then I served under another golden pension plan as a member of the legislature. I served there for nearly four years. Interest rates in the 1980s were in the area of 18 per cent.

[An hon. member]

Who got them there?

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. Kilger)]

Again, I caution members. I know there are some very strongly held views on both sides of the House, but please direct the interventions through the Chair.

[Don Boudria, Liberal, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

After four years I was given my premiums back, no employer share, no transferability, no portability and 4 per cent interest when the interest rate was 18 per cent. Would anyone else invest their contributions that way? I suggest not.

I have contributed to the federal MPs pension plan since 1984, 11 years. The Library of Parliament research office calculated the value of the premiums I have paid plus interest, based on the regular guaranteed investment certificate rate. I have contributed in interest and premiums, $136,988. That is what I have paid personally toward the plan, interest and premiums included.

Some members across the way were asking why all of this was not in an employer-employee plan, jointly contributed, a money purchase plan of sorts where both sides contribute the same amount. If that would have been the case with me I would now have $273,976. Just the interest on an amount of that size at 10 per cent would be $27,000 a year which I could draw right now. If I were defeated today as an MP I would get about $30,000

instead of $27,000. That is the gold plated pension plan those people across the way talk about.

They talk about these unfunded liabilities. These unfunded liabilities are based on assumptions of the nature that the money I contributed toward the plan bears no interest. Who has ever said that? Nobody. That is why they make these kinds of allegations but they need to be substantiated with some facts and some truth.

Yes, of course, Mr. Speaker, you could probably find someone's grandmother here and find an unfunded liability for their old age security cheque. If you revealed those numbers, someone who is 65 and expected to live until 85, 20 years times an OAS cheque, plus the supplement if they so qualify, that would make a huge amount too. Are the people across the way suggesting we cancel that?

If that were the only element of debate it would be awfully shallow. It is awfully shallow. I am not ashamed of the paycheque I get as an MP. I am not asking for more at all. I think I do an honest job of trying to serve the people who sent me here many years ago.

[Some hon. members]

Hear, hear.

[Don Boudria, Liberal, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

I said at the beginning of my remarks that I had been a federal civil servant. I know I have said this before but I will repeat it now. I started here as a busboy in the parliamentary restaurant. The other day I looked at my paycheque when I first started. It was $86 for two weeks. That was on October 25, 1966.

I work hard for my constituents and I think we should be working hard. There is nothing wrong with our doing that. I am not complaining about it. I am glad that I work hard. I am glad I have the health and so on to do that which is required of me to properly serve my constituents. At the same time we should stop pretending that MPs are overpaid and underworked, do not do anything and so on.

If the only thing wrong with that would be that we criticize each other, I suppose it would be secondary. However we are diminishing the whole institution by keeping this up. Of the G-7 nations, Canada is either sixth or seventh in terms of the compensation it offers to its legislators at the national level. It is not the highest. We are not pigs at the trough. What kind of nonsense is that?

[An hon. member]

Garbage.

[Don Boudria, Liberal, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

It is garbage and that is all it is. We are trying to do the appropriate job for those who sent us here.

I sit with a number of others on the Board of Internal Economy. We have made cuts everywhere we could and we are continuing to do that. We are going to continue to strive to do a good job, one that is economical for those we serve. At the same time, I say to members across the way that when they start doing things like saying members are worth nothing or very little, they do not win.

Some members across the floor were high ranking people in the military. How many people in the military are chauffeured around with limousines as part of their jobs? Do they have to account for that every day? Do members of the military have to put up with this kind of debate about their pensions? No, and I am not saying they should.

We were told by one member that the normal age of retirement and getting a pension is 65. That is what he said to us. We are going to be dealing with bills shortly to bring the retirement age in the public sector from 55 to as low as 50. So where is the truth in what we heard earlier? It is not there.

I end on the tone I started on. We made commitments through the red book. We are going to deliver to the people of Canada. At the same time, it does not mean we are doing a service to democracy by doing the damage that some people are trying to do.

I am now at an age where some of this is starting to make less and less difference. I am already here. I have been elected. My children are advancing in terms of university and everything else. None of this will probably affect me in the future, or if it does, very little. People who are 25 or 35 years old and want to run in the next election, I do not want for them to be unable to run because they cannot afford to, because they cannot afford the compensation package and because they cannot afford to leave the workplace.

As I said, I am already here as are all of us, but we have to remember that we are not here permanently. Others will come after us. To destroy the institution is serving no one.

[John Bryden, Liberal, Hamilton—Wentworth, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I wanted to follow up on my colleague's remarks and comment on the extensive damage this debate is doing.

I ran as an MP solely because I wanted to serve my country. Many people on the other side of the House, certainly the Reform Party, would have us believe they did the same thing and I believe them. Bloc members also have run as members of Parliament because they have an idealism, they believe in a cause. I might not agree with that cause, but they have run for the very best of principles.

I have received 20 letters on this issue, 20 special letters. They are from a school in my riding and the children are only 12 years old. Those letters condemn me as a member of Parliament as a result of this debate. They accuse me of being at the trough. They ask: Why am I taking these inflated salaries? Why am I cheating the public? Obviously this group of school children

have a teacher who has the same view as the members of the Reform Party.

What is happening is this debate has destroyed the face of those children.

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh.

[John Bryden, Liberal, Hamilton—Wentworth, ON]

Laugh if you will, members of the Reform Party.

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. Kilger)]

Order. As I said earlier, I know there are some strongly held views on this debate as is the case on every debate, but the interventions must be made through the Chair.

[John Bryden, Liberal, Hamilton—Wentworth, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I was getting a little heated there anyway. I do want to make the point that it is terrible to read those letters from those children and to see they have lost faith in their members of Parliament, not just me but all members of Parliament and the institution. That is the price of attempting a political advantage by this debate. That is exactly what it is. The members who have initiated this debate should really think twice. I agree with my colleague that they are destroying the institution and they are destroying the faith of the children in this land.

[Don Boudria, Liberal, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

In Britain in the 1830s the great reform act was passed. I think it was eventually passed in 1832, if my memory serves me. The debate lasted a very long time. The reform act had two purposes at that time. One was to widen the franchise because very few people had the right to vote in the United Kingdom, which included Ireland. Some of the people who fought the most to ensure both features were included in the legislation, widening the franchise and giving salaries to MPs, were the people of Ireland.

It was their feeling that if a person came from a disadvantaged group the chances of their kind being represented in Parliament were nil. Daniel O'Connell was elected to the Parliament of the United Kingdom. He was known as the liberator. The liberator was elected to Parliament but he came from a very wealthy family.

In spite of the fact that he was elected, I believe, in 1829 it took a number of years before others could get elected because there were no salaries for MPs. If they were fortunate enough to sit on the government side they had the government benefits at the time. They had what they called offices; they served in various functions. If they did not receive government benefits, as the minority Catholic members obviously would not have, they received no salary for being an MP. That was seen as being the biggest disadvantage for people seeking public office.

Widening the franchise enabled everyone to vote and made it possible for people to seek public office because they had a salary by which to transport themselves to Parliament. Those were seen as the two important things. That is the history of that Parliament. Our lot is not the same and I will not say it is.

I would like to close by saying what I said initially. I was able to run for election to be an MP notwithstanding that I started from the lowest rung of the ladder. If I had been rich I could have run notwithstanding anything else. I was not and I am still not rich but I was able to run notwithstanding. I am today a member of Parliament in the highest court of the land representing my constituents.

Because there is a salary and benefits it makes it possible for not only wealthy middle aged men to run, but for young people, people from disadvantaged groups, and all others to come here. Parliament, if it is a democracy, should be a microcosm of those we claim to represent. Rich people should have a right to run, poor people should have a right to run, men and women, all equally. In our efforts to make things better let us ensure we are making them better, not worse. That is the point I wish to make.

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. Kilger)]

Is the House ready for the question?

[Some hon. members]

Question.

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. Kilger)]

The question is on the amendment to the amendment. Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the amendment to the amendment?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[Some hon. members]

On division.

(Amendment to amendment agreed to.)

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. Kilger)]

Resuming debate on the amendment, as amended, with the hon. member for Kootenay East.

[Jim Abbott, Reform, Kootenay East, BC]

Mr. Speaker, it is interesting to me as an absolute novice in the House that we are at the mercy of people on the other side like the member who just spoke. They have parliamentary knowledge having gone to England and learned at the feet of the masters how to run different affairs within the House of Commons. It is particularly disappointing on an issue that is key to my relationship as a politician with the people I represent that the government would try through procedure to slip it through the House tonight so that it could get it under the cover of a committee.

The member from Hamilton talked about the fact that young people in his constituency have approached him and written him letters saying that they have a low regard for politicians. The problem is that he does not understand the actions of the government today in the House of Commons are a duplication of the actions of previous governments of the Liberal stripe and of the Conservative stripe, whereby politicians consistently looked

after themselves to the best of their ability. That is the reflection these young people have.

We can look at the fancy words in the red book about restoring integrity and about building bridges between the people in the constituencies and the politicians. However we see in the actions tonight, in the total waste of time of this assembly, the reality. The reality is that the government will do anything it needs to do to slide this kind of process through the House.

In looking at the issue it is interesting how we as members of Parliament arrived here. Totally contrary to the assertions made by the Liberals, the member for Calgary Centre and I as do all of us agree that the pay package or the actual salary package is deficient against the number of hours being put in and the level of responsibility of members of Parliament.

What did previous politicians do? They said that it was too visible, too transparent, that people would see they were doing something to change it around. Therefore they came up with the gold plated pension plan. Now we are faced with a situation where in taking a look at the pension plan and at the changes proposed in the legislation currently before the House we simply compound error upon error. We simply continue to generate a situation where we have a wall between ourselves and our constituents.

I find it absolutely astounding for the Liberal members to assert that somehow it is only in Reform constituencies, that it is only our constituents who are concerned about this issue.

It makes me think of when we were having a debate about the very meagre, weak-kneed measures that were brought forward by this government with respect to the Young Offenders Act. We were having a debate in this House of Commons, I believe on the Thursday immediately prior to the Liberal convention.

Reform members of Parliament were being told that everything was fine and the only place where there were any problems and any desire to make changes to the Young Offenders Act was in the Reform constituencies. What an amazing thing. There were only 52 constituencies out of 295 that had a problem with the Young Offenders Act, or so it was being represented by the Liberals.

It was particularly fascinating that what ensued out of the convention convened by the Liberals on the Friday, Saturday and Sunday is that members of their constituency organizations told them that Reform was right. They told them that there was a problem.

Could someone inform me what the annual membership fee is to be a Liberal party member? I assume one has to pay or do they give them away?

[Gar Knutson, Liberal, Elgin—Norfolk, ON]

Ten dollars.