Debates of May 9th, 1995

Pensions

[Preston Manning, Reform, Calgary Southwest, AB]

These are the numbers that the minister should admit are indefensible.

How can the President of the Treasury Board possibly justify those numbers to taxpayers or to seniors when the finance minister is planning to reduce pensions for ordinary Canadians?

[Art Eggleton, Liberal, President of the Treasury Board and Minister responsible for Infrastructure]

Mr. Speaker, the leader of the Reform Party and his entire party, as we have seen many times in the past when dealing with budgetary issues and pension issues, have a way of extremely exaggerating and taking out of context the figures relevant to compensation.

They sure know how to put forward the Cadillac when it comes to increasing the compensation for members. Over a 50 per cent increase in compensation is what they have suggested while the government is reducing it by some 33 per cent. Over a 130 per cent increase in salaries is what they recommend. That is unconscionable.

The government does not stand for that. The government stands for fiscal restraint.

[Preston Manning, Reform, Calgary Southwest, AB]

Mr. Speaker, the principal issue in MP compensation, and everyone in the House knows it, is the MP pension plan. What Canadians would accept as fair in the plan is one where the government matches MP contributions on a one to one basis.

What the minister is trying to justify under pressure from the Deputy Prime Minister and others is a scheme where taxpayers contribute over $3.50 to every $1 that the Liberal fat packers contribute.

Will the minister do the honourable thing? Will he do the prudent thing? Will he do the fiscally responsible thing and bring the MP pension plan into line with those available to other Canadians?

[The Speaker]

The President of the Treasury Board.

[Some hon. members]

Hear, hear.

[Art Eggleton, Liberal, President of the Treasury Board and Minister responsible for Infrastructure]

Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the standing ovation for me.

This exercise is about what is fiscally prudent. That is what the government is doing. That is not what the Reform Party is doing.

The bottom line is what it will cost taxpayers. What we are proposing will cost taxpayers less. What they propose will cost taxpayers more.

Unemployment Insurance

[Francine Lalonde, Bloc, Mercier, QC]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Human Resources Development.

At a seminar organized by the Public Policy Forum in March, the Deputy Minister of Human Resources Development, Jean-Jacques Noreau, opened up to the participants, saying that his department's first challenge was to rethink the UI program. He even went as far as to state that it might be necessary to create a new federal-provincial agency, composed of government, business and labour representatives, to administer the UI fund.

Can the Minister of Human Resources Development confirm his deputy minister's statement, and why does he stubbornly refuse to call a meeting of human resources and employment ministers right now so that they can discuss this issue?

[Lloyd Axworthy, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development and Minister of Western Economic Diversification]

Mr. Speaker, at the present time we are looking very carefully at a wide number of proposals that we received during the public consultations last fall, the report from the House of Commons committee, the special report on seasonal work, and the representations we have received from a number of businesses, communities and union organizations.

We are pulling together all that information to look at what we think would be the best form of arrangements for a new unemployment insurance program. A number of different models are being considered, but no decision has been made yet. There has been no policy established. It is now simply a matter of putting those different proposals together.

As was indicated in the budget speech, we will be presenting a new form of proposals some time in the fall. I hope the hon. member can restrain her impatience until that time. I think she most of all would want us to do the job carefully, with prudence, to make sure that everybody's representation is listened to and responded to.

[Francine Lalonde, Bloc, Mercier, QC]

Mr. Speaker, is the minister aware that there has been no federal-provincial conference since January 1993, that is to say, since the minister has been in charge of this important portfolio, while the provinces have been hard hit by the decisions made, especially with respect to unemployment insurance?

Far from trying to get out of job training, as demanded by all stakeholders in Quebec, does the minister not intend mainly to make the UI fund bear the costs of training not only the unemployed but also welfare recipients?

[Lloyd Axworthy, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development and Minister of Western Economic Diversification]

Mr. Speaker, I suppose various members could engage in all kinds of idle speculation and put up their pet proposals.

If the hon. member is making a representation today that she thinks we should be using unemployment insurance money for social assistance, we will certainly take that into account. If that is something the hon. member feels strongly about, I would hope she would have the good grace to write it down carefully and give me her arguments and her reasoning. I would be glad to receive any proposals the hon. member would like to make.

Gun Control

[Jack Ramsay, Reform, Crowfoot, AB]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Justice.

In light of the analysis done by the Library of Parliament, which indicates that part of the gun legislation might be challenged in the courts as unconstitutional, is the justice minister as confident as his parliamentary secretary was yesterday in the House that all aspects of Bill C-68 are in fact constitutional?

[Allan Rock, Liberal, Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada]

Yes, Mr. Speaker.

[Jack Ramsay, Reform, Crowfoot, AB]

Mr. Speaker, weekend newspaper reports indicate that the Minister of Justice is considering curbing the enormous powers given to police officers under Bill C-68 to search homes and places.

Are these reports accurate? If so, what prompted the change of heart? Popular opinion or the threat of a court challenge?

[Allan Rock, Liberal, Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada]

Mr. Speaker, those clippings were drawn to my attention yesterday. My position has not changed from what I expressed to the committee when I testified before the hon. member and his colleagues on that committee on April 24 last.

As for the police powers to search the member should bear in mind that the powers, as he well knows, proposed in Bill C-68 are to inspect, not to search.

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh.

[Allan Rock, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Mr. Speaker, if we are not to make distinctions in law then what is our function here? These distinctions are very important.

The power is to inspect, which is completely consistent with the approach taken in dozens of other statutes federally and provincially to ensure public safety. Those powers of inspection have been organized and presented in Bill C-68 in a fashion that

has been held on more than one occasion by the Supreme Court of Canada to be both constitutional and appropriate.

Old Age Pensions

[Maurice Dumas, Bloc, Argenteuil—Papineau, QC]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Human Resources Development.

According to an information sheet addressed to the staff of the Department of Human Resources Development the government has made decisions regarding reforms to the old age pension system, and I quote: "The amount of old age security benefits will be based on combined family income".

Since it seems that the government has already made this decision, will the Minister of Human Resources Development tell us how much he hopes this measure will save the government?

[Lloyd Axworthy, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development and Minister of Western Economic Diversification]

Mr. Speaker, no decisions have been made; no policy has been set. Again I would refer the hon. member to the budget in which we indicated we would be putting together a white paper to be tabled in the fall that would set out a series of propositions dealing with the larger issue of aging in society.

The hon. member, who is a student of that problem and is very much engaged in the concerns of senior citizens, would recognize that the situation is changing quite dramatically and that we must take a look at a number of options to ensure that we can continue a base of income security for people in their retirement. Our number one priority is to ensure security for people in their retirement. We will be presenting a number of proposals that I think will meet that objective.

[Maurice Dumas, Bloc, Argenteuil—Papineau, QC]

Mr. Speaker, before the minister rhymes off his automatic reply that the opposition is trying to scare seniors, will he admit that this proposal will erode the financial autonomy for which women fought so hard, and that it will discriminate against them?

[Lloyd Axworthy, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development and Minister of Western Economic Diversification]

Mr. Speaker, I would be very glad to answer that if I knew what proposal he was talking about. There is no proposal presented.

I just told the hon. member we will be presenting a white paper with a number of propositions this fall. At that time, if the hon. member wants to raise questions about it, certainly we would welcome any representation. However, to try to state that there is already a proposition in place upon which he would like an answer, yes or no, it is impossible until I know what proposition the hon. member is talking about.

Canadian Security Intelligence Service

[Val Meredith, Reform, Surrey—White Rock—South Langley, BC]

Mr. Speaker, a few years ago CSIS recruited a young man by the name of Luke Desilets to spy on the Aryan Nations. Unfortunately, since last spring he has accepted the Aryan Nations' philosophy and renounced his former ties to CSIS. Apparently Luke now spends his time travelling between Aryan Nation compounds throughout the United States while his parents wonder if their son will ever be normal again.

I ask the Solicitor General: Are he and CSIS prepared to take any responsibility for the state of this young man's life?

[Herb Gray, Liberal, Leader of the Government in the House of Commons and Solicitor General of Canada]

Mr. Speaker, I am not in a position to confirm the hon. member's assertions. In any event, as the hon. member well knows, it is not the practice to confirm or deny whether somebody may or may not have been a source for CSIS.

[Val Meredith, Reform, Surrey—White Rock—South Langley, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I think Canadians would feel a whole lot better and have more confidence in the government if they would spend less time using national security to defend their mistakes and rather guarded secrets.

Charles Scott is a self-styled colonel in the Aryan Nations in B.C. Like many of those in the white supremacist movement, he found himself often lacking the financial resources to spread his message of hate. But once the CSIS source showed up, Scott's financial problems appeared to end. It seems that Luke even provided Scott with $1,000 so he could attend the Aryan Nations congress in Idaho last year.

Is this another example of CSIS funding the groups it is supposed to be monitoring?

[Herb Gray, Liberal, Leader of the Government in the House of Commons and Solicitor General of Canada]

Mr. Speaker, the hon. member is stating certain assertions that appeared in the press as fact. I am not in a position to confirm whether or not that is the case. It is not a matter of hiding behind national security; it is respecting the law passed by this Parliament. I would suggest the hon. member show a willingness to do the same.

Criminal Code

[Pierrette Venne, Bloc, Saint-Hubert, QC]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Justice.

There is a serious flaw in the Criminal Code. A justice may order a suspect or an accused person to undergo a DNA test. However, once the test is completed, the results are inadmissible in the trial, even in matters of sexual assault or murder.

In the light of the murder of Tara Manning, would the Minister of Justice tell us whether he intends to act diligently and quickly introduce amendments to the Criminal Code in order to fill the legal void concerning the admissibility of the results of DNA tests as evidence?