Debates of June 12th, 1995

Firearms Act

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. Kilger)]

I very much appreciate the understanding shown by the hon. member for Berthier-Montcalm. True, he was not the first member to discuss the bill in a more general way, but I did react to a previous speech.

Certainly I will attempt to the best of my ability to conduct the debate in the fashion that will be most acceptable to at least the vast majority of colleagues in the House.

Is the House ready for the question?

[Peter Milliken, Liberal, Kingston and the Islands, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I think you might find unanimous consent to consider that all the questions have been put, a division demanded and deferred.

I think you would be able to follow this procedure throughout the day if we reach the end of a group, simply to save time in the House. In other words, we will have a vote on them at the end of the day. There is no need to call the yeas and nays at this point and then defer the vote.

[The Speaker]

The House has heard the terms of the motion of the hon. parliamentary secretary.

Does the House agree that the Chair should defer the questions instead of putting the motions in group No. 1 to a vote?

Is that agreed?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

We will move to group No. 2. I want to apprise the House the only motions standing in group No. 2 will be Motion No. 5 and Motion No. 145. All other motions in group No. 2 have been withdrawn.

[Jack Ramsay, Reform, Crowfoot, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order. Could we have a clarification on the withdrawal of those other motions? I am unaware of any withdrawal.

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. Kilger)]

The mover or movers of those other motions within group No. 2 have decided to withdraw their motions. That is the only explanation I can offer the House at this time.

[Jack Ramsay, Reform, Crowfoot, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I understand some of those are my motions and I have not withdrawn any. I am not aware of anyone withdrawing them on my behalf either.

I was looking at a past Order Paper, not today's. I am in error and I withdraw my intervention.

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. Kilger)]

I thank the hon. member from Crowfoot for his co-operation. Certainly we were looking for whether we had given less than accurate information. I would not want to do that on any debate, certainly not on this one.

Now we will go to group No. 2, with only Motion No. 5 and Motion No. 145 standing. As I understand, by previous agreement I do not have to read the motions.

[Allan Rock, Liberal, Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada]

moved:

Motion No. 5

That Bill C-68 be amended, in Clause 2, by adding after line 11 on page 4, the following:

"(3) For greater certainty, nothing in this Act shall be construed so as to abrogate or derogate from any existing aboriginal or treaty rights of the aboriginal peoples of Canada under section 35 of the Constitution Act, 1982."

Motion No. 145

That clause 107.1 of Bill C-68 be amended a ) by striking out, in the English version, line 23 on page 52 and substituting the following:

"may lawfully use it; b ) by striking out line 28 on page 52 and substituting the following:

"obtains a registration certificate for it; or c ) a person who possesses a firearm and who is not the holder of a registration certificate for the firearm if the person

(i) has borrowed the firearm,

(ii) is the holder of a licence under which the person may possess it, and

(iii) is in possession of the firearm to hunt or trap in order to sustain himself or herself or his or her family."

[Russell MacLellan, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada]

Mr. Speaker, I will speak on both of these motions proposed by the Minister of Justice. Motion No. 5 relates to clause 2 and adds a new subsection (3):

For greater certainty, nothing in this act shall be construed so as to abrogate or derogate from any existing aboriginal or treaty rights of the aboriginal peoples of Canada under section 35 of the Constitution Act, 1982.

We have heard from many aboriginal groups about the importance of firearms in exercising their traditional hunting rights. With this in mind the government is in the midst of consultation with aboriginal groups so the main tenets of the bill can be applied in a manner which is sensitive to the aboriginal communities. This motion would simply confirm the government's commitment to work in concert with aboriginal communities so that the firearms legislation can operate in their communities in a way which recognizes and is respectful of constitutional aboriginal treaty rights.

What we want to do is rationalise the constitutional and treaty rights which the aboriginal people already have with Bill C-68. That is not to create due rights, but then again it is not to derogate the rights aboriginal people already have. We want this legislation to work in conjunction with the treaty and constitutional rights of the aboriginal people. That is very important for the operation of this bill and for the respect of the rights of aboriginal people under the Constitution and the treaties.

Reform members are calling this a two tier justice system. We have stated and we state again there is to be the same rights applied to all Canadians and that the bill is to apply equally in all parts of Canada except where we have stated certain conditions would apply to those who hunt for sustenance. We are acknowledging that there are treaty and constitutional rights for aboriginal people. We want to mesh the application of this bill into that.

Motion No. 145 strikes out certain lines in the English version of the bill. We are proposing an amendment consequential to the new lending conditions to be provided in the legislation. Motion No. 145 would provide an exception to the summary offence provision of possessing a firearm without a registration certificate if the person were a sustenance hunter who had borrowed the firearm.

This is in relation to section 107(1) of the Firearms Act which will come into being with Bill C-68. It says someone who has borrowed a firearm for hunting for sustenance would not be charged because they were hunting with or using an unregistered firearm. We think that is applicable and is in keeping with those who must hunt for sustenance to feed their families in the more remote parts of the country.

I put forward on behalf of the government those two motions which we feel will add to the bill, particularly to those residents of the more rural parts of the country. We are mindful of the concerns of those in the rural and regional parts of the country and we want this bill to be respected, obeyed and applicable in a meaningful way to these regions.

[Bob Speller, Liberal, Haldimand—Norfolk, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order. I was a bit unclear as to what the parliamentary secretary was saying. Is he saying this would not apply to anywhere south of the Northwest Territories, to any aboriginals in Ontario, Quebec and the west?

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. Kilger)]

With respect, that is not a point of order.

[Jack Iyerak Anawak, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development]

Mr. Speaker, it is a pleasure to speak to the amendment put forward by the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Justice. This clause was recommended by most of the aboriginal groups that came to the justice committee during its hearings on Bill C-68. Some specific recommendations were made by the Inuit Tapirisat of Canada and the Grand Council of the Crees of Quebec to include a non-derogation clause in the bill.

While the government's position is that the bill does not abrogate or derogate from aboriginal and treaty rights, aboriginal people want greater assurance and comfort.

Aboriginal groups are happy the government and the minister have responded. I thank the aboriginal witnesses for this suggestion. I express my deep appreciation to the minister for listening and responding to these concerns.

I am sure we will have the support of the Reform Party. I will quote the hon. member for Crowfoot who quite clearly said during one of the hearings that the support is there from the Reform Party: "I find it unacceptable that the government will make agreements with our aboriginal people and then violate those agreements. This is unacceptable. What is the purpose of the agreement and where is the honour of the agreement if it is simply to be violated? No wonder the aboriginal people come forward. I admire your patience. I cannot get over your patience in the face of this kind of treatment".

It is quite clear that when the aboriginal people of Canada want a non-derogation clause in the gun control bill the Reform Party will be with us all the way on this issue. It would not want the Government of Canada to break its treaties with the aboriginal people who have negotiated land claims and treaties over the past number of years.

I am glad this amendment has been put forward. I am sure members of this House will find that this amendment is acceptable to all, that it will address the needs and that it recognizes and acknowledges the special place aboriginal people have in this country.

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. Kilger)]

Is the House ready for the question?

[Some hon. members]

Question.

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. Kilger)]

Is the same agreement applicable that the votes will be deferred?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. Kilger)]

Pursuant to Standing Order 76(8), a recorded division on Group No. 2 stands deferred. We will now proceed to Group No. 3.

[John Murphy, Liberal, Annapolis Valley—Hants, NS]

moved:

Motion No. 4

That Bill C-68 be amended by adding after line 11, on page 4, the following new Clause:

"2.1 This Act does not apply in respect of a ) any firearm that is not a prohibited firearm or a restricted firearm; or b ) any ammunition that is not prohibited ammunition.''

[Andy Mitchell, Liberal, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

moved:

Motion No. 6

That Bill C-68, in Clause 4, be amended a ) by replacing line 17, on page 4, with the following:

"4(1) The purpose of this Act is"; and b ) by adding after line 18, on page 5, the following:

"(2) Nothing is this Act is to be interpreted as prohibiting a person who is licensed to own a firearm from using a firearm, other than a restricted or prohibited weapon, that has been registered by the person pursuant to this Act, from a ) using the firearm for recreational or sustenance hunting, target shooting, trapping or other lawful activity, or b ) keeping the firearm in a collection of firearms.''

[Allan Rock, Liberal, Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada]

moved:

Motion No. 23

That the French version of Clause 10 of Bill C-68 be amended by striking out lines 36 to 41 on page 10 and line 1 on page 11 and substituting the following:

"10. Les articles 5, 6 et 9 s'appliquent aux transporteurs se livrant à des activités, notamment, de transport d'armes à feu, d'armes prohibées, d'armes à autorisation restreinte, de dispositifs prohibés ou de munitions prohibées reliant une province et une ou plusieurs autres provinces, ou débordant les limites d'une province, et, à cette fin, la mention du".

[Jack Ramsay, Reform, Crowfoot, AB]

moved:

Motion No. 24

That Bill C-68, in Clause 10, be amended by replacing lines 1 to 3, on page 11, with the following:

"province."

Motion No. 28

That Bill C-68, in Clause 13, be amended by replacing line 24, on page 14, with the following:

"registration certificate for a prohibited firearm or a restricted firearm unless the".

Motion No. 29

That Bill C-68, in Clause 14, be amended by replacing lines 27 to 32, on page 14, with the following:

"14. A registration certi-ficate may be issued only for a prohibited firearm or a restricted firearm a ) that bears a serial number sufficient to distinguish it from other prohibited firearms or restricted firearms; or b ) that is described by one or more of the fol-lowing characteristics:

(i) its make,

(ii) its model,

(iii) the name of its manufacturer,

(iv) the length of its barrel,

(v) its calibre, or

(vi) its assembly number."

Motion No. 41

That Bill C-68 be amended by deleting Clause 25.

Motion No. 42

That Bill C-68, in Clause 25, be amended by replacing lines 20 and 21, on page 18, with the following:

"or to a police force if the person informs a chief firearms officer of the transfer and complies with the".

Motion No. 43

That Bill C-68, in Clause 26, be amended by replacing lines 32 and 33, on page 18, with the following:

"proposed transfer of a prohibited fire-arm, restricted firearm, prohibited weapon, prohibited device, ammunition or".

Motion No. 45

That Bill C-68, in Clause 26, be amended by replacing lines 19 to 21, on page 19 with the following: c ) decide whether to approve the transfer or importation; and''.

Motion No. 49

That Bill C-68, in Clause 30, be amended by replacing line 17, on page 21, with the following:

"transfer of a prohibited firearm or a restricted firearm, the Registrar may".

Motion No. 50

That Bill C-68, in Clause 30, be amended by replacing line 17, on page 21, with the following:

"transfer of a firearm, a chief firearms officer may".

Motion No. 51

That Bill C-68, in Clause 30, be amended by replacing line 23, on page 21, with the following:

"prohibited firearm or a restricted firearm to Her Majesty in right of Canada or".

Motion No. 52

That Bill C-68, in Clause 30, be amended by replacing line 24, on page 21, with the following:

"province or to a police force, a chief firearms officer".

[Allan Rock, Liberal, Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada]

moved:

Motion No. 54

That Clause 32 of Bill C-68 be amended by striking out lines 4 to 8 on page 22 and substituting the following:

"(i) has reasonable grounds to believe that the borrower holds a licence authorizing the borrower to possess that kind of firearm, and

(ii) lends the borrower the registration certificate for the firearm, except in the case of a borrower who uses the firearm to hunt or trap in order to sustain himself or herself or his or her family; or"

[Jack Ramsay, Reform, Crowfoot, AB]

moved:

Motion No. 56

That Bill C-68, in Clause 32, be amended by replacing line 7, on page 22 with the following:

"(ii) in the case of a prohibited firearm or a restricted firearm, lends the borrower the registration".

Motion No. 60

That Bill C-68, in Clause 33, be amended by replacing line 18, on page 22, with the following: a ) in the case of a prohibited firearm or a restricted firearm, the transferor''.

Motion No. 69

That Bill C-68, in Clause 40, be amended in the English version, by replacing lines 38 and 39, on page 26, with the following:

"same effect as a registration for a prohibited firearm or a restricted firearm for the period for which the confirma-".

Motion No. 70

That Bill C-68, in Clause 41, be amended by replacing lines 41 and 42, on page 26, with the following:

"41. A customs officer shall inform a chief firearms officer without delay of the exportation or".

Motion No. 71

That Bill C-68, in Clause 43, be amended by replacing lines 13 and 14, on page 27, with the following: a ) in the case of a prohibited firearm or a restricted firearm, holds the registration certificate for the prohibited firearm or the restricted firearm;''.

Motion No. 73

That Bill C-68, in Clause 43, be amended by replacing lines 31to 33, on page 27, with the following: e ) provides a chief firearms officer with the prescribed information and any other information required by that officer.''

[John Murphy, Liberal, Annapolis Valley—Hants, NS]

moved:

Motion No. 76

That Bill C-68, in Clause 45, be amended by replacing lines 16 and 17, on page 28, with the following: c ) in the case of a restricted firearm or a restricted weapon,''.