Debates of June 12th, 1995

Firearms Act

[Jim Abbott, Reform, Kootenay East, BC]

Zero.

[Don Boudria, Liberal, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

That is a good point. I am glad the hon. member across the way is wide awake and listening. It is about the same as asking how man lives licence plates on motor vehicles will save.

If we do nothing else of course it will not save any. Who says it is not in the interests of society to do anything else? It is the same with licence plates on motor vehicles. It permits one to determine when cars are being used in an inappropriate way, to chase them down, to give tickets and to take other measures to provide greater safety for Canadians.

It is the same thing with gun control. It is the same thing. The members in this party and most Canadians want laws in this country that differentiate us from our neighbours to the south, in the United States of America. I have a great fondness for the United States, a great land of prosperity. However, the Americans have laws that permit people to bear arms in the street in some states, like Texas, for example.

Now this is not the sort of society we want in Canada. I say this to the members opposite over the outcry and all the noise the Reform Party is making-we do not want this sort of society. This is not at all what we want.

We want a society in which we will-

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh.

[The Acting Speaker (Mrs. Maheu)]

I am sure hon. members would be interested in hearing the final moments of the speech of the government whip.

[Don Boudria, Liberal, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

Madam Speaker, notwithstanding the fact that I am trying not to be provocative, it is getting a few members across the way a bit more than excited. Nevertheless this is a serious piece of legislation proposed by a minister who has travelled the country to listen to the views of Canadians.

We have debated the bill longer than any other piece of legislation has been debated since we have been in office. We debated the bill, as I said at the beginning of my remarks, longer than we debated the throne speech, the budget debate and all the budget bills combined. We have nothing to apologize for. Canadians have been consulted.

Now that they have been consulted, the time for decision has come. This is a government that does not hesitate to make decisions. The government will make the necessary decisions. The government will enact the legislation necessary to make this a better, finer and safer society for all.

In a few years from now some of the members across the way in the Reform Party will be apologizing to the people of Canada for the wrongheaded decisions they are taking today. They will be apologizing for those blunders, as the hon. member for Kingston and the Islands put eloquently. That is what will happen. I say to members across the way that it is still time for them to change their minds. There is still time to vote for the legislation the people of Canada have asked us to enact. There is still time to do what the majority of Canadians want.

If members across the way think they are behaving in a way that is deserving of the support of the majority of the people they pretend to represent, now is the time to show it. Now is the time to vote on a measure the people of Canada want.

[Keith Martin, Reform, Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC]

Madam Speaker, the purpose of the bill as every bill is to make the country a safer place. I will indicate how the bill will do the exact opposite. It will make our streets less safe in the future.

As I only have two minutes I will be very brief. I will dispense with all the rhetoric and take the minister's argument a part piece by piece.

When passed the legislation will cost between $85 million and $500 million. That money has to come from somewhere and will be taken away from the functional arm of justice. There is something called opportunity cost. When it is pulled away from one arm of justice to another it should be put into an area with better efficiency. Unfortunately it has been proven that gun registration does not work and will not make our streets safer. Studies have been done in Australia, New Zealand and other countries.

The minister says that we will have less homicide. The reality is that of the 720 homicides in the country last year 220 were committed with firearms and 5 were committed with legally owned handguns. The minister says that we will have less suicide. Persons who are going to commit suicide do not go out to get a gun registration or an FAC. They do not go through all the loops necessary to get a gun. They kill themselves or attempt to kill themselves with whatever is available.

In short, that is why the registration aspect of Bill C-68 will not work. It will make our street less safe because it will take money away from the functional arm of justice.

[The Acting Speaker (Mrs. Maheu)]

It being 7.45 p.m., pursuant to order made Thursday, June 8, and in accordance with the provisions of Standing Order 78(2), it is my duty to interrupt the proceedings and put forthwith every question necessary to dispose of the report stage of the bill now before the House.

Pursuant to agreement made earlier, all motions in Group No. 4 are deemed put and recorded divisions are deemed requested and deemed deferred.

Pursuant to agreement made earlier all the motions in Group Nos. 5 to 11 are deemed proposed and seconded, questions put, divisions requested and deemed deferred.

[Jack Ramsay, Reform, Crowfoot, AB]

moved:

Motion No. 13

That Bill C-68, in Clause 5, be amended by replacing line 21, on page 5, with the following:

"safety of any other person, that the".

Motion No. 14

That Bill C-68, in Clause 5, be amended a ) by replacing line 13, on page 6, with the following:

"against any other person; or"; and b ) by replacing line 17, on page 6, with the following:

"other person."

Motion No. 38

That Bill C-68, in Clause 21, be amended by replacing lines 35 and 36, on page 16, with the following:

"desirable, in the interests of the safety of any other person, that the".

Motion No. 209

That Bill C-68, in Clause 133, be amended by replacing lines 23 and 24, on page 90, with the following:

"ble in the interests of the safety of any other person, to make an order".

Motion No. 211

That Bill C-68, in Clause 133, be amended by replacing lines 17 and 18, on page 91, with the following:

"the interests of the safety of any other".

Motion No. 217

That Bill C-68, in Clause 133, be amended a ) by replacing lines 40 and 41, on page 99, with the following:

"desirable in the interests of the safety of any other person, for the person"; b ) by replacing lines 4 and 5, on page 100, with the following:

"in the interests of the safety of any other person, for the person to possess any"; and c ) by replacing line 11, on page 100, with the following:

"safety of any other person, it".

Motion No. 219

That Bill C-68, in Clause 133, be amended by replacing lines 25 and 27, on page 101, with the following:

"interests of the safety of any other".

Motion No. 258

That Bill C-68, in Clause 147, be amended by replacing lines 41 and 42, on page 114, with the following:

"n the interests of the safety of any other person."

Motion No. 260

That Bill C-68, in Clause 151, be amended by replacing lines 4 and 5, on page 116, with the following:

"the interests of the safety of any other person, to include as a condition".

Motion No. 262

That Bill C-68, in Clause 169, be amended by replacing lines 21 and 22, on page 123, with the following:

"interests of the safety of any other person, to make an order prohibiting the".

[Jack Ramsay, Reform, Crowfoot, AB]

moved:

Motion No. 15

That Bill C-68, in Clause 6, be amended a ) by replacing line 30, on page 6, with the following:

"6. A person is eligible to hold a licence"; and b ) by deleting lines 36 to 39, on page 6.

[Pierrette Venne, Bloc, Saint-Hubert, QC]

moved:

Motion No. 16

That Bill C-68, in Clause 7, be amended by replacing lines 22 to 34, on page 7, with the following:

"restricted firearms only if the individual successfully completes a restricted firearms safety course that is approved by the attorney general of the province in which the course is given."

[Jack Ramsay, Reform, Crowfoot, AB]

moved:

Motion No. 17

That Bill C-68, in Clause 7, be amended by replacing lines 39 to 42, on page 8, and lines 1 and 2, on page 9, with the following:

"dividual against whom a prohibition order was made merely because another person against whom a prohibition order was made cohabited with, or was an associate of, the individual."

[Allan Rock, Liberal, Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada]

moved:

Motion No. 18

That Clause 8 of Bill C-68 be amended by striking out lines 29 and 30 on page 9 and substituting the following:

"individual has consented, in writing or in any other manner that is satisfactory to the chief firearms officer, to the issuance of the licence."

[Charles Hubbard, Liberal, Miramichi, NB]

moved:

Motion No. 93

That Bill C-68, in Clause 62, be amended by replacing lines 4 to 10, on page 33, with the following:

"individual who is eighteen years old or older remains valid unless revoked pursuant this Act."

[Brent St. Denis, Liberal, Algoma, ON]

moved:

Motion No. 102

That Bill C-68 be amended by adding after line 19, on page 38, the following new Clause:

"70.1 (1) A chief firearms officer shall not revoke or refuse to renew the licence of an individual to possess a restricted firearm, or a handgun referred to in paragraph 12(6)( a ), where the individual a ) is not eligible to hold the licence or have it renewed by reason only of illness, travel or other valid reason; and b ) lends the firearm or handgun the Her Majesty, a police force or other borrower, in accordance with this Act, for the period of the ineligibility.

(2) The Registrar shall not revoke the registration certificate for a firearm or handgun in the circumstances referred to in subsection (1)."

[Allan Rock, Liberal, Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada]

moved:

Motion No. 21

That Clause 9 of Bill C-68 be amended by striking out lines 14 to 21 on page 10 and substituting the following:

"holder to acquire restricted firearms.

(3.1) In subsection (3), "firearm" does not include a partially manufactured barrelled weapon that, in its unfinished state, is not a barrelled weapon a ) from which any shot, bullet or other projectile can be discharged; and b ) that is capable of causing serious bodily injury or death to a person.''

Motion No. 22

That Clause 9 of Bill C-68 be amended by striking out lines 31 to 35 on page 10 and substituting the following:

"(a) who, in the course of duties of employment, handles or would handle only firearms that are designed or intended to exactly resemble, or to resemble with near precision, antique firearms, and who has been trained to handle or use such a firearm; or"

Motion No. 33

That the French version of Clause 17.1 of Bill C-68 be amended by striking out lines 27 and 28 on page 15 and substituting the following:

"(iii) désire la transporter aux fins de réparation, d'entreposage, de vente, d'exportation ou d'évaluation,".

Motion No. 34

That the French version of Clause 17.1 of Bill C-68 be amended by striking out lines 30 to 32 on page 15 and substituting the following:

"d'armes à feu."

Motion No. 36

That the French version of clause 18 of Bill C-68 be amended by striking out lines 7 and 8 on page 16 and substituting the following:

"(iii) désire la transporter aux fins de réparation, d'entreposage, de vente, d'exportation ou d'évaluation,".

Motion No. 47

That the French version of Clause 29 of Bill C-68 be amended by striking out line 5 on page 21 and substituting the following:

"ques, techniques ou scientifiques relatives".

Motion No. 57

That the French version of Clause 33 of Bill C-68 be amended by striking out line 13 on page 22 and substituting the following:

"bées, de dispositifs prohibés, d'armes à autorisation restreinte, de"

Motion No. 72

That clause 43 of Bill C-68 be amended by striking out lines 23 to 28 on page 27 and substituting the following: c ) holds a licence authorizing it to possess those goods, except where those goods are to be shipped in transit through Canada by a business that does not carry on business in Canada;''

Motion No. 74

That the French version of clause 44 of Bill C-68 be amended by striking out line 36 on page 27 and substituting the following:

"l'autorisation d'exportation à l'agent des"

Motion No. 80

That the French version of clause 48 of Bill C-68 be amended by striking out line 6 on page 29 and substituting the following:

"tion de marchandises visées à l'article 42 doivent faire l'objet d'une autorisation"

Motion No. 89

That the English version of clause 54 of Bill C-68 be amended by striking out lines 13 and 14 on page 31 and substituting the following:

"54. (1) a chief firearms officer is responsible for issuing licences."

Motion No. 90

That the English version of clause 55 of Bill C-68 be amended by striking out lines 20 to 22 on page 31 and substituting the following:

"55. a chief firearms officer is responsible for issuing authorizations to carry and authorizations to transport."

Motion No. 171

That the French version of clause 133 of Bill C-68 be amended by striking out lines 30 to 33 on page 70 and substituting the following:

«exporter» Exporter hors du Canada, notamment exporter des marchandises importées au Canada et expédiées en transit à travers celui-ci."

Motion No. 172

That the French version of clause 133 of Bill C-68 be amended by striking out lines 37 to 40 on page 70 and substituting the following:

«importer» Importer au Canada, notamment importer des marchandises expédiées en transit à travers le Canada et exportées hors de celui-ci.»

Motion No. 227

That clause 133 of Bill C-68 be amended by striking out lines 36 and 37 on page 108 and substituting the following:

"prohibited device or prohibited ammunition if, in the opinion of the Governor in Council, the thing to be prescribed is reasonable for use"

Motion No. 261

That clause 161.1 of Bill C-68 be amended by striking out lines 30 to 32 on page 118 and substituting the following: d ) have been taken as a sample or seized under the Firearms Act or any other Act of Parliament; or''

[Jack Ramsay, Reform, Crowfoot, AB]

moved:

Motion No. 25

That Bill C-68, in Clause 12, be amended by replacing lines 19 to 20, on page 13, with the following:

"and for which on".

[Brent St. Denis, Liberal, Algoma, ON]

moved:

Motion No. 27

That Bill C-68, in Clause 12, be amended a ) by replacing lines 44 to 45, on page 13, with the following:

"1977 if the particular individual is the spouse or a brother, sister, child or descendent of an"; and b ) by adding after line 2, on page 14, the following:

"(7.1) Where the particular handgun referred to in subsection (6) was manufactured between 1945 and 1977, the particular individual referred to in subsection (7) is only eligible for the licence if the individual submits, with the application for the licence, a statutory declaration declaring the handgun to be a family heirloom and stating the reasons for that belief."

[Allan Rock, Liberal, Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada]

moved:

Motion No. 159

That clause 113 of Bill C-68 be amended by striking out lines 19 to 25 on page 59 and substituting the following:

"tion certificate; b ) in the case of an individual referred to in subsection 12(2), (3), (4), (5), (6) or (8), to acquire and possess any prohibited firearms referred to in that subsection that are acquired by the holder on or after the commencement day; and c ) in the case of a particular individual who is eligible under subsection 12(7) to hold a licence authorizing the particular individual to possess a handgun referred to in subsection 12(6) (pre-February 14, 1995 handguns) in the circumstances described in subsection 12(7), to acquire and possess such a handgun in those circumstances, if the particular handgun is acquired by the particular individual on or after the commencement day.''

[Jack Ramsay, Reform, Crowfoot, AB]

moved:

Motion No. 160

That Bill C-68 be amended by adding after line 40, on page 59, the following new Clause:

"113.1 (1) Every person who, immediately before the coming into force of any of subsections 106(1), 106.2(1) and 106.4(1), possessed a firearm without a firearm acquisition certificate because a ) the person possessed the firearm before January 1, 1979, or b ) the firearm acquisition certificate under which the person had acquired the firearm had expired, shall be deemed for the purposes of that subsection to be, until January 1, 2001 or such other date as is prescribed, the holder of a licence under which the person may possess the firearm.

(2) Every person who, immediately before the coming into force of any of subsections 106(1), 106.2(1) and 106.4(1), possessed a firearm and was the holder of a firearm acquisition certificate shall be deemed for the purposes of that subsection to be, until January 1, 2001 or such other date as is prescribed, the holder of a licence under which the person may possess the firearm.

(3) Every person who, at any time between the coming into force of subsection 106(1), 106.2(1) or 106.4(1) and the later of January 1, 1998 and such other date as is prescribed, possesses a firearm that, as of that date, is not a prohibited firearm or a restricted firearm, shall be deemed for the purposes of that subsection to be, until January 1, 2003 or such other date as is prescribed, the holder of a registration certificate for that firearm."

Motion No. 168

That Bill C-68, in Clause 133, be amended by replacing lines 30 to 34, on page 69, with the following: a ) a handgun that has a barrel equal to or less than 105 mm in length''.

[Allan Rock, Liberal, Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada]

moved:

Motion No. 169

That clause 133 of Bill C-68 be amended by striking out line 34 on page 69 and substituting the following:

"a 25 or 32 calibre cartridge,"

[Jack Ramsay, Reform, Crowfoot, AB]

moved:

Motion No. 226

That Bill C-68, in Clause 133, be amended a ) by replacing line 32, on page 108, with the following:

"(2) Subject to subsection (3), in making regulations, the Governor in"; and b ) by adding after line 38, on page 108, the following:

"(3) The Governor in Council may not prescribe any handgun that is designed or adapted to discharge a .25 or .32 calibre cartridge to be a prohibited firearm."

[Brent St. Denis, Liberal, Algoma, ON]

moved:

Motion No. 26

That Bill C-68, in Clause 12, be amended a ) by replacing line 21, on page 13, with the following:

"February 28, 1995 a registration certificate"; and b ) by replacing line 25, on page 13, with the following: a ) on February 28, 1995''.

Motion No. 37

That Bill C-68, in Clause 19, be amended by replacing line 19, on page 16, with the following:

"12(6) (pre-February 28, 1995 handguns) may".

Motion No. 44

That Bill C-68, in Clause 26, be amended by replacing line 10, on page 19, with the following:

"subsection 12(6) (pre-February 28), 1995".

Motion No. 46

That Bill C-68, in Clause 27, be amended by replacing line 26, on page 19, with the following:

"12(6) (pre-February 28, 1995 handguns) or".

Motion No. 86

That Bill C-68, in Clause 52, be amended by replacing line 17, on page 30, with the following:

"in subsection 12(6) (pre-February 28, 1995".

Motion No. 94

That Bill C-68, in Clause 63, be amended by replacing line 3, on page 34, with the following:

"12(6) (pre-February 28, 1995 handguns) for".

Motion No. 96

That Bill C-68, in Clause 65, be amended a ) by replacing line 10, on page 35, with the following:

"(pre-February 28, 1995 handguns) a chief"; and b ) by replacing line 26, on page 35, with the following:

"(28, 1995 handguns) that are possessed by an".

[Jack Ramsay, Reform, Crowfoot, AB]

moved:

Motion No. 30

That Bill C-68 be amended by deleting Clause 15.

Motion No. 31

That Bill C-68, in Clause 16 be amended by replacing lines 1 to 4, on page 13, with the following:

"16. (1) A registration certificate for a prohib-ited firearm or a restricted firearm may be issued to only one person.

(2) Subsection (1) does not apply in the case of a prohibited firearm or a restricted firearm for which a registration certificate".

[Brent St. Denis, Liberal, Algoma, ON]

moved:

Motion No. 32

That Bill C-68, in Clause 16, be amended by replacing lines 40 to 42, on page 14, with the following:

"of a firearm where a ) two spouses, who each hold a licence to possess the firearm, apply to have the registration certificate issued to them jointly; or b ) a registration certificate referred to in section 121 was issued for the firearm to more than one person.''

[Jack Ramsay, Reform, Crowfoot, AB]

moved:

Motion No. 114

That Bill C-68 be amended by deleting Clause 80.

Motion No. 115

That Bill C-68 be amended by deleting Clause 81.

Motion No. 116

That Bill C-68 be amended by deleting Clause 82.

Motion No. 117

That Bill C-68 be amended by deleting Clause 83.

Motion No. 118

That Bill C-68 be amended by deleting Clause 84.

Motion No. 119

That Bill C-68 be amended by deleting Clause 85.

Motion No. 120

That Bill C-68 be amended by deleting Clause 86.

Motion No. 121

That Bill C-68 be amended by deleting Clause 87.

Motion No. 122

That Bill C-68 be amended by deleting Clause 88.

Motion No. 123

That Bill C-68 be amended by deleting Clause 89.

Motion No. 124

That Bill C-68 be amended by deleting Clause 90.

Motion No. 125

That Bill C-68 be amended by deleting Clause 91.

Motion No. 126

That Bill C-68 be amended by deleting Clause 92.

Motion No. 127

That Bill C-68, in Clause 93, be amended by replacing lines 22 to 24, on page 46, with the following:

"registration certificates and authorizations; and".

Motion No. 128

That Bill C-68 be amended by deleting Clause 97.

Motion No. 129

That Bill C-68 be amended by deleting Clause 98.

Motion No. 130

That Bill C-68 be amended by deleting Clause 99.

Motion No. 131

That Bill C-68 be amended by deleting Clause 100.

Motion No. 132

That Bill C-68 be amended by deleting Clause 101.