Debates of June 14th, 1995

Member For Nepean

[Some hon. members]

Hear, hear.

Canada Social Transfer

[Lucien Bouchard, Bloc, Leader of the Opposition]

Mr. Speaker, in a report published today, the National Council of Welfare launched a stinging condemnation of the Canada social transfer. According to the report, this brainchild of the Minister of Finance was the worst initiative in 30 years because it threatened to destroy the very foundation of social services and programs in Canada. According to the Council, the reform of transfer payments would inevitably lead to a reduction in spending on social assistance.

My question is of course directed to the father of this brainchild, the Minister of Finance.

Does the minister agree, as the Council stated, that by reducing federal contributions to social programs funding, the Canada social transfer will cause the provinces to reduce their budgets for social assistance and make the most vulnerable in our society even poorer?

[Paul Martin, Liberal, Minister of Finance and Minister responsible for the Federal Office of Regional Development-Quebec]

Mr. Speaker, I liked the preamble much better than the question.

The fact is that the Canada social transfer as such will not involve any cuts in transfers to the provinces. What it does provide, whether there are cuts or not, is far more flexibility for the provinces in deciding how to meet the needs of their residents. I am surprised that the Leader of the Opposition should complain that we are giving the provinces the flexibility they want.

[Lucien Bouchard, Bloc, Leader of the Opposition]

Mr. Speaker, the Department of Finance and its minister seem to live on another planet, because if they were right about this explanation, it would mean that the demand for health care has dropped and that to adjust to a changing world, in other words, to a reduction in the need for health care and social services, the Department of Finance would, very sensibly, have reduced its contribution.

That, however, is not the case and I wonder how the minister, who is unable to justify the reduction in the Canada social transfer, would be able to justify the new cuts totalling $1.6 billion in the Unemployment Insurance Plan, cuts that will have a more severe impact on the regional economies of Quebec, which has more seasonal workers?

[Paul Martin, Liberal, Minister of Finance and Minister responsible for the Federal Office of Regional Development-Quebec]

Mr. Speaker, first of all, there will be no cuts in the Canada social transfer concept. The transfer is a concept that will give the federal government a chance to maintain its transfers and at the same time give the provinces more flexibility.

I think the Prime Minister was very clear about this last week when he said, in referring to medicare, that it would put the federal government in a position where it could protect and also maintain cash transfers which, according to a timeframe established some years ago, will disappear if no action is taken immediately.

[Lucien Bouchard, Bloc, Leader of the Opposition]

Mr. Speaker, I know that political speeches and responses in the House may be somewhat complex and sometimes unnecessarily so, but this is a real masterpiece.

How can the federal government tell us that Canada transfers will help the federal government protect medicare, for instance,

while in the same breath it says that it intends to make substantial cuts in the government's contribution to medicare? I would appreciate an answer.

[Paul Martin, Liberal, Minister of Finance and Minister responsible for the Federal Office of Regional Development-Quebec]

Mr. Speaker, the Prime Minister was very clear last week, as was the minister of HRD, as I was, that the cash contributions of the federal government are steadily declining, according to a schedule that was established a long time ago.

With this particular measure we have put the federal government in a position where it will be able to flat line those cash contributions over a period of time while maintaining the federal government's contribution to the very important social programs of the country.

[Translation]

[Michel Gauthier, Bloc, Roberval, QC]

Mr. Speaker, a year ago, rumours were flying that the Canada assistance plan was headed for the chopping block. In the last budget, it was announced that the cash payments to the provinces for social programs would be cut by $7 billion within two years, which was the amount previously allocated to social assistance.

Does the Minister of Finance confirm that the Canada social transfer's sole objective is to progressively reduce to zero the federal government's contribution to social assistance funding, while preserving its ability to continue setting national standards?

[Paul Martin, Liberal, Minister of Finance and Minister responsible for the Federal Office of Regional Development-Quebec]

Mr. Speaker, the hon. member's premise is totally wrong. First of all, the provinces, including Quebec, started to cut well before the federal government tabled its budget.

Second, for this year and next year, not only does the budget not prescribe any cuts but it actually increases federal transfers.

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh.

[Paul Martin, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard, QC]

I must tell you that the hon. member's figures are wrong. I cannot answer a question based on an invalid premise.

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh.

[Michel Gauthier, Bloc, Roberval, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I am speechless. In case he forgot, the Minister of Finance announced $7 billion in cuts in his last budget. Today, he tells us that there are no cuts.

[An hon. member]

No, he says there are increases.

[Michel Gauthier, Bloc, Roberval, QC]

Well, I am dumbfounded. Mr. Speaker, I will give the minister a second chance.

Since the funds allocated to the provinces for social assistance will dry up in two years because of the federal cuts announced in his budget, will the Minister of Finance frankly admit that it would have been impossible for him to impose federal standards on the provinces had he not invented the Canada social transfer ruse?

[Paul Martin, Liberal, Minister of Finance and Minister responsible for the Federal Office of Regional Development-Quebec]

Mr. Speaker, the member says he has a little difficulty understanding French, a little difficulty understanding Latin. My Latin is not too good either.

Let me say it again in English. The Leader of the Opposition says his colleague has no difficulty understanding math. He now says I have got the wrong person.

Since the government took office, transfers to the provinces have increased. Transfers to the provinces have not been cut for this year and in fact are going up.

Ultimately there will be a cut but that is no excuse for provincial action. The fact is any province, including the province of Quebec, has as much money to work with today as it did when we took office. Let us be very clear about that.

As far as social programs are concerned, a mechanism has been put in place that stops their continuous erosion all the way down to zero. There have been reductions but we have set in place a mechanism and any province that wants to sit down with us or the minister of HRD and is prepared to look at national values, that mechanism is in place.

There is a pre-condition to all of that. That is the goodwill and the understanding that this is one country and that this country wants to build, not destroy.

Minister Of Canadian Heritage

[Preston Manning, Reform, Calgary Southwest, AB]

Mr. Speaker, another day and yet another troubling revelation about the heritage minister and his dollars for contracts dinner in Montreal.

André Bureau, the former head of the CRTC and the current president of The Astral Broadcasting Group, has now revealed that he received an invitation to the minister's private money gathering event, as did his business partner, Harold Greenberg. Astral has direct business dealings with both the CRTC and with the heritage department. Mr. Bureau and Mr. Greenberg, however, could see a potential conflict of interest in the dinner and to their credit declined the invitation.

If André Bureau, a former and respected public servant, aware of the federal code of ethics, could clearly see the potential for a conflict of interest in the minister's dinner, why is it that the minister, the Prime Minister and the government cannot see that conflict?

[Herb Gray, Liberal, Leader of the Government in the House of Commons and Solicitor General of Canada]

Mr. Speaker, I could ask the leader of the Reform Party in return why the hon. member cannot see that this is an open and transparent event because of the way the donations are reported according to the election law of Canada. Therefore what the hon. member is looking for is simply not there.

[Preston Manning, Reform, Calgary Southwest, AB]

Mr. Speaker, Canadians are wondering why the government pretends it cannot see the ethical issue which is involved here. Legitimate political fundraisers involving a minister do not target clients having business or regulatory dealings with the minister's department.

The heritage minister was clearly in the wrong and the government is making matters worse by pretending that it does not see the wrong.

By the ethical standards of the red book, is it right or is it wrong for ministers to participate in political fundraisers targeted to clients having business or regulatory dealings with their departments? Is it right or is it wrong?

[Herb Gray, Liberal, Leader of the Government in the House of Commons and Solicitor General of Canada]

Mr. Speaker, I do not accept the premise of the hon. member's question.

Ministers take part in fundraising activities just as the leader of that party takes part in fundraising activities. It is a normal part of the political process in this country to take part in fundraising activities.

[Preston Manning, Reform, Calgary Southwest, AB]

Mr. Speaker, no Prime Minister or Deputy Prime Minister or House leader can present themselves to this House as the guardians of ethics in government unless they can tell right from wrong and unless they are willing to act on discernments of that kind. That is what ethics are all about.

I ask the government House leader one more time, and I will say it slowly so it is clear. Is it right or wrong for ministers to participate in political fundraisers targeted to people having business or regulatory dealings with their departments? If it is wrong, will the heritage minister resign?

[Herb Gray, Liberal, Leader of the Government in the House of Commons and Solicitor General of Canada]

Mr. Speaker, again I do not accept the premise of the hon. member's question. It is clear when it comes to this topic that it is not the hon. member's strong suit.

Education And Social Assistance

[Antoine Dubé, Bloc, Lévis, QC]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Human Resources Development. In its recently tabled report on Bill C-76, the Liberal majority on the finance committee states, and I quote: "The Committee recognizes the obligation of the Minister of Human Resources Development to develop, through mutual consent with the provinces, principles and objectives for the social assistance and post-secondary education components of the CHST".

What does the minister intend to do with the finance committee's recommendation, which insists on his obligation to develop national standards for education and social assistance?

[Lloyd Axworthy, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development and Minister of Western Economic Diversification]

Mr. Speaker, we set out very clearly in the budget what the process would be.

We will be inviting the provinces to meet with us to discuss how we can arrive through mutual consent at a useful and effective set of principles that will help guide the country in a united, co-operative, integrated way to reach our social goals. It is really based upon good faith that there is a real willingness by all provinces and the federal government to come together and arrive at a way in which we can effectively combine our resources to target them to the groups of people who are in most serious need and at the same time make sure we can protect and maintain the fundamental principles underlying our system of health care and social assistance.

[Antoine Dubé, Bloc, Lévis, QC]

Mr. Speaker, since the minister has yet to get together with his provincial counterparts, will he now pledge not to impose new principles or national standards if a province objects to them?