House of Commons Hansard #224 of the 35th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was pensions.

Topics

Business Of The HouseGovernment Orders

June 22nd, 1995 / 4:25 p.m.

Kingston and the Islands Ontario

Liberal

Peter Milliken LiberalParliamentary Secretary to Leader of the Government in the House of Commons

Mr. Speaker, I think you would find consent that the House now proceed to deal with Bill C-91 at third reading, subject to an amendment which I am about to propose. I believe agreement has been reached between all parties in the House that there would be three five-minute speeches on third reading of this bill, followed by a bell not exceeding five minutes, following which there would be a vote on third reading.

I think if you could seek that consent I would then propose the amendment to the House, Mr. Speaker.

Business Of The HouseGovernment Orders

4:25 p.m.

The Speaker

I am going to proceed to that request and ask for unanimous consent. Before I do that I am going to read a message from the Senate and then we are going to go to orders of the day, and then I will take that under consideration. That is how I will deal with it.

Message From The SenateGovernment Orders

4:30 p.m.

The Speaker

I have the honour to inform the House that a message has been received from the Senate informing this House that the Senate has passed Bill C-70, an act to amend the Income Tax Act, the Income Tax Application Rules and related acts, without amendment; and Bill S-7, an act to accelerate the use of alternative fuels for motor vehicles, without amendment.

Business Of The HouseGovernment Orders

4:30 p.m.

The Speaker

The House has heard the terms proposed by the parliamentary secretary.

Is it the pleasure of the House to proceed?

Business Of The HouseGovernment Orders

4:30 p.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

Business Of The HouseGovernment Orders

4:30 p.m.

Kingston and the Islands Ontario

Liberal

Peter Milliken LiberalParliamentary Secretary to Leader of the Government in the House of Commons

Mr. Speaker, on the third reading of the bill, I move:

That Bill C-91 be amended:

By deleting line 25 in section 31 and renumbering (b), (c) and (d) as (a), (b) and (c) and by adding as section 32 the following:

The Bank shall not grant a loan, investment or guarantee to a director or officer of the corporation.

By renumbering existing section 32 as section 32.1 and by deleting line 14 in section 32(3) and renumbering (b),(c) and (d) as (a), (b) and (c).

I seek the unanimous consent of the House for that amendment to be made to the bill.

Business Of The HouseGovernment Orders

4:30 p.m.

The Speaker

Is there unanimous consent?

Business Of The HouseGovernment Orders

4:30 p.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

Motion agreed to.

Business Of The HouseGovernment Orders

4:30 p.m.

The Speaker

Colleagues, before I leave the Chair this may be the last sitting day. I do not say that it is. As usual, your Speaker is hosting a small reception for all parliamentarians and our pages in Room 216. I cordially invite all of you to join me there when the time permits.

Business Development Bank Of Canada ActGovernment Orders

4:30 p.m.

Windsor West Ontario

Liberal

Herb Gray Liberalfor Minister of Industry

moved that Bill C-91, an act to continue the Federal Business Development Bank under the name Business Development Bank of Canada, as amended, be read the third time and passed.

Business Development Bank Of Canada ActGovernment Orders

4:35 p.m.

Broadview—Greenwood Ontario

Liberal

Dennis Mills LiberalParliamentary Secretary to Minister of Industry

Mr. Speaker, I would like to say to the leader of Her Majesty's loyal opposition, the industry critic for the Bloc Quebecois, and the hon. member for Edmonton Southwest who is the industry critic for the Reform Party that the government appreciates the co-operation on this bill. If we were not able to get this bill through today, it would have had an adverse impact not just on the bank as we know it but also on meeting the objectives of helping small and medium sized business over the next three or four months as we adjourn this House of Commons.

As we have debated over the last couple of days, the new Business Development Bank of Canada has been given a new mandate. This new mandate allows the capital of the bank to increase substantially to close to $18 billion. It also means that the bank can be a real force in this country in a complementary way in supporting other financial institutions.

We also have to acknowledge that the bank is not just there to help in making loans to small business. It is also there as a counselling assistance bank. Very few Canadians realize that one of the unique features of the Business Development Bank of Canada is that it has one of the most sophisticated counselling assistance programs in any financial institution right across Canada.

We have given an undertaking that by allowing this bill to proceed quickly today with swift passage, that we on this side of the House will not accelerate the activity of the bank in the province of Quebec before the referendum unless the Bloc changes its mind and wants the bank to be much more aggressive in its lending activities and its presence. That option is there for the Bloc to decide whether or not it wants more activity by the bank before the referendum or if it would like us to wait until after. That decision is with the Bloc and we will honour that commitment.

On behalf of all government members and of course all of our members on the industry committee we have worked as a team in designing this bill and putting it through the House of Commons. Without the opposition's co-operation we could not have had such swift passage. This is an example where all of us are working together to get this economy going.

Business Development Bank Of Canada ActGovernment Orders

4:35 p.m.

Bloc

Yves Rocheleau Bloc Trois-Rivières, QC

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to rise and speak about this bill at third reading, in slightly peculiar circumstances. I would like to state right now that it is only in the interest of Quebecers that we are going along with the government today.

What we would have preferred was for the Federal Business Development Bank to continue as it was before, with a mandate to simply stimulate economic development. We do not want to fundamentally change the rules of the game and create a new small business bank in Canada, as this bill proposes.

There is a fallacy in its very title, because the title does not match its contents, the scope of the bill. The first thing, of course, is the name change: from the Federal Business Development Bank to the Business Development Bank of Canada. That is a little pretentious, a little too pretentious, presumptuous. This was not reflected anywhere in the committee's discussions and debates. In addition, changing the name will be a frivolous waste of time and money.

More serious still, it would change the Federal Business Development Bank's mandate which, up to now, was well appreciated by Quebecers. It would go from being the economic development bank that it was, the last resort bank for a specific clientele, for a very specific market, to a bank which offers complementary financing. We are fundamentally changing what defined it, what gave it its character as a last resort bank.

The bank's role will be changed. There will be changes in the culture of a bank whose primary mandate was to promote the creation and expansion of small business, the culture of economic development. The changes will be subtle, as the new Business Development Bank of Canada seeks financing from the private sector and-this is of major concern to the Bloc Quebecois-will have to be profit-oriented, considering the rates of interest it will have to pay private investors, who will now be invited to invest in the bank. This will bring about a thorough change in the philosophy of the Business Development Bank of Canada, a bank that in our opinion is set to become a commercial bank with a culture that will be more concerned about making profits than just breaking even, as was formerly the case.

Furthermore, and this is probably the most negative development from our point of view, this bill ushers in an unprecedented offensive by the federal government in the sector of regional development, a sector where Quebec has excellent resources and a reputation for its expertise. The federal government, without consulting with Quebec or the other provinces, has the gall to indicate in the bill that it will deal directly with provincial agencies, which are creatures of the provinces, including in Quebec, although Quebec has legislation that regulates relations between provincial agencies-creatures of the Government of Quebec-and the federal government. This is supposed to be done through the Government of Quebec, and now the federal

government comes barging in, tracking mud all over the floor as it were. We deplore this attitude and we condemn it.

Well, let us go on to something else. The bill is full of terms that can be interpreted in a number of ways because they are so vague that bank directors, and especially political leaders, can use them any way they like.

When they are referring to programs, when the qualifier entrepreneurship is used, no definition is given of an entrepreneurship program or indeed of entrepreneurship itself, which opens the door to every possible intrusion by the federal government in the area of regional development, which in Quebec, at least, is considered to be the prerogative and responsibility of the Government of Quebec.

Finally, we seem to be looking at one of the centrepieces of post-referendum Canada which is being put together here in Ottawa, in a very low-key way, and which will make Canada a centralized country, a unitary country, something Pierre Elliott Trudeau never quite managed to do, but now it is being done very subtly, without debate, without any speeches and without anyone being brave enough to come out and say so. It is being done little by little, and the concept that prevails throughout is that Quebec is a province like the others and that for these people, Quebec as a nation does not exist.

Business Development Bank Of Canada ActGovernment Orders

4:40 p.m.

Reform

Ian McClelland Reform Edmonton Southwest, AB

Mr. Speaker, I want to make it very clear at the outset that our party opposes the bill in principle. We feel that it does not make a whole lot of sense for the government to be establishing another crown corporation to compete with the private financial sector at the very time we are desperately trying to get CN, another crown corporation, into the private sector.

To those Canadians watching, I would like to put the magnitude of the new Federal Business Development Bank into context. The lending authority of the bank will go to $18 billion. The combined total of all of the outstanding loans of all of the chartered banks in Canada is less than double that. It is something like $26 billion. We have created one huge entity in the financial marketplace.

This is a government bill and we knew it was going to pass. I want to tell the House that the industry committee worked very hard to make the bill better. That was the purpose of our amendments.

I think we should also recognize the fact that members of the Department of Industry were most co-operative, very helpful, and worked very hard to put this legislation through. As well, Mr. François Beaudoin and members of the bank have worked very hard.

I do not wish to cast any aspersions whatsoever on the role of the Federal Business Development Bank as a complementary lender and as a mentor to incubating entrepreneurship in Canada. That is where the bank should restrict its activities. In our view, there is a necessity of having that kind of mentoring in our country. They do great work through the CASE program.

We feel that we should not be getting ourselves involved in the private sector. We did great work in the Small Businesses Loans Act working with the banks. This summer the industry committee will be working once again with the banks to keep their feet to the fire, to make sure they are lending money to small business. If the banks do their job, the crown does not have to do it. In my view, and in the view of many people on this side of the House, the correct approach would be to keep the bank's feet to the fire, not exposing more taxpayers' money to small business or any business. The business of business is business. We should not as taxpayers be throwing money at businesses.

Having said that, Mr. Speaker, I want to say through you to the House and to people of the Federal Business Development Bank that they do have the support of the House. It is a democratic institution. It is going to be continued, and we expect them to be a complementary lender, not a competitive lender.

Business Development Bank Of Canada ActGovernment Orders

4:45 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Kilger)

Is the House ready for the question?

Business Development Bank Of Canada ActGovernment Orders

4:45 p.m.

Some hon. members

Question.

Business Development Bank Of Canada ActGovernment Orders

4:45 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Kilger)

Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion?

Business Development Bank Of Canada ActGovernment Orders

4:45 p.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

Business Development Bank Of Canada ActGovernment Orders

4:45 p.m.

Some hon. members

No.

Business Development Bank Of Canada ActGovernment Orders

4:45 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Kilger)

All those in favour of the motion will please say yea.

Business Development Bank Of Canada ActGovernment Orders

4:45 p.m.

Some hon. members

Yea.

Business Development Bank Of Canada ActGovernment Orders

4:45 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Kilger)

All those opposed will please say nay.

Business Development Bank Of Canada ActGovernment Orders

4:45 p.m.

Some hon. members

Nay.

Business Development Bank Of Canada ActGovernment Orders

4:45 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Kilger)

In my opinion the yeas have it.

And more than five members having risen:

Business Development Bank Of Canada ActGovernment Orders

4:45 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Kilger)

Call in the members.

(The House divided on the motion, which was agreed to on the following division:)

Business Development Bank Of Canada ActGovernment Orders

5 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Kilger)

I declare the motion carried.

(Bill read the third time and passed.)