House of Commons Hansard #230 of the 35th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was magazines.

Topics

Cultural Property Export And Import ActGovernment Orders

5:40 p.m.

Reform

Ed Harper Reform Simcoe Centre, ON

Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the question of the hon. member. I was certainly pleased to hear that there are volunteers running the artefacts museum in her riding. That is wonderful. We need more volunteers working in our communities.

I do not buy the premise that we have to offer tax credits in order to get these works of art these different paintings and sculptures to remain in Canada. I believe there are many Canadians who have done well in businesses in Canada who are prepared to make those

donations tax free without any tax credits. The government is making the assumption that we have to do this to encourage it and I do not believe that.

We certainly cannot and should not be doing it at this time in our history when we are in the financial mess we are in. We just do not have the dollars to throw away in the form of tax credits to the very wealthy in this country.

Cultural Property Export And Import ActGovernment Orders

5:45 p.m.

Liberal

Alex Shepherd Liberal Durham, ON

Mr. Speaker, I am still mystified by the economics. Why is it that a $1,000 painting that we can acquire for $500 is not a good one?

The member made the analysis between this kind of consumption of art work as part of our cultural history and identity with donations to charitable organizations. I am not clear at all on the member's point of view. Should we be raising the tax credit for charitable donations or should we be lowering the tax credit for works of art to 20 per cent? It is not at all clear what his analogy is and where that is taking us. Maybe the member could address that.

Cultural Property Export And Import ActGovernment Orders

5:45 p.m.

Reform

Ed Harper Reform Simcoe Centre, ON

Mr. Speaker, I will be pleased to address that. I am not surprised that it is not clear when somebody thinks that spending $1,000 or $500 of money we do not have makes sense. That kind of logic escapes me.

I am attempting to get across that the tax credit for these works of art is overly generous. We should be more generous in tax credits for the charities in our communities that are helping those who are in need. I thought I made that very clear. As I mentioned earlier, the mathematics on the other side escape me and their inability to grasp the seriousness of the debt position this government is in at the moment.

Cultural Property Export And Import ActGovernment Orders

5:45 p.m.

Reform

Monte Solberg Reform Medicine Hat, AB

Mr. Speaker, we were talking a little while ago about the acquisitions government has made and just how credible it is when it comes to making these acquisitions.

I wonder if the hon. member is aware of the current display at the National Gallery by the artist Paul Wong entitled: "On Becoming a Man". It depicts a man and a woman laying buck naked in a bed with a couple of blow up dolls. I am certain there are all kinds of wonderful reasons to acquire this kind of art and probably no price is too high to pay for this wonderful art, but I am wondering if the hon. member from Simcoe has seen this. If so, can he tell us whether or not this is a worthy acquisition and an appropriate role for our federal government to be playing?

Cultural Property Export And Import ActGovernment Orders

5:45 p.m.

Reform

Ed Harper Reform Simcoe Centre, ON

Mr. Speaker, I must admit I have not seen this wonderful piece of art. Having it now described I do not think I will take the time to go and look at it. It is another example of the terrible waste of our tax dollars. Thousands and thousands of Canadians will never get to see it and many more of them would never want to see that kind of art. It is a tragedy that money is being spent in that area.

Cultural Property Export And Import ActGovernment Orders

5:45 p.m.

Reform

Myron Thompson Reform Wild Rose, AB

Mr. Speaker, a moment ago my colleague from North Vancouver mentioned a phone call from an 86-year old.

In Wild Rose a lot of people watch the parliamentary channel and the things that go on. In my colleague's view, just exactly where would this type of bill fit in the list of priorities of today's problems we have in government? People in Wild Rose are saying there is a $600 billion debt. Parents of 10-year old children like Melissa are worried sick about what may happen to them. Bombs are blowing up all across the country because gangs are claiming turf or making sure they get their turf if they do not have any. We sit around and talk about all kinds of things that crop up because the magicians over there and their highly paid lawyers come up with all kinds of documents and legislation that we have to look after.

People in Wild Rose want to know when we are going to get down to business. In two years we have not accomplished anything in their view. They would say that right this minute the Prime Minister and a lot of other people over there should be in their seats.

Cultural Property Export And Import ActGovernment Orders

5:50 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Kilger)

Colleagues, I fully respect that this is the place to have the debate of the day on this particular matter. Clearly, we have all been here long enough now that under no circumstances can the Chair accept any reference to any other member of any party not being present in the Chamber. I would ask all of us to please keep that in mind.

I ask the member for Wild Rose to please complete his question or comment because I must continue with the debate.

Cultural Property Export And Import ActGovernment Orders

5:50 p.m.

Reform

Myron Thompson Reform Wild Rose, AB

Mr. Speaker, people in Wild Rose would wonder why we have not filled this place with all members of Parliament, getting down to business, working hour after hour in here trying to solve the problems of the nation. I would like to know what priority my hon. colleague puts on legislation of this type.

Cultural Property Export And Import ActGovernment Orders

5:50 p.m.

Reform

Ed Harper Reform Simcoe Centre, ON

Mr. Speaker, I thank the hon. member for Wild Rose for his question. Very simply, I would give it an extremely low priority. It would actually be below gun control, which is another waste of a minimum of $90 million of our hard earned tax dollars.

I find it appalling that we are dealing with issues such as this while the country is heading into bankruptcy. We are going deeper and deeper into debt and we are talking about tax credits to the rich. We are not dealing with the real serious problems we are facing as a nation. We are dealing with issues that should not even be in front of us at this time in the history of the country.

If we would do something about balancing our budget so that we can start offering some tax relief to the citizens of Canada we would see the economy grow and jobs being created. The overly

high unemployment level would then be reduced to something which is far more acceptable.

Cultural Property Export And Import ActGovernment Orders

5:50 p.m.

Liberal

Shaughnessy Cohen Liberal Windsor—St. Clair, ON

Mr. Speaker, from the level of the debate particularly from the opposition benches this afternoon, I can see that the dinosaurs from the west are not only in Drumheller. Some of them appear to be alive and kicking and present in the Chamber today.

It is important to understand that cultural property is not just paintings and fine art. It extends also to natural history, paleontology and mineralogy, all aspects of human history, archaeology, military history, antique furniture, antique firearms, which I am sure my friends like very much, scientific and technological objects and a full range of archival and library materials. There have been some significant examples recently of donations which help to illustrate the diversity of cultural property that is included in the legislation.

Last summer several pieces of a meteorite fell near St-Robert, Quebec. These have been donated to institutions in Quebec and to the Geological Survey of Canada to enable scientists to enhance their knowledge of space and the history of the universe.

The Hudson's Bay Company donated its extensive archival collection of business records dating from the 17th century to the present to the archives of the province of Manitoba. This collection includes information rich documentation that is being consulted and analyzed for such diverse information as arctic exploration, Canada's economic development and even climatic changes and weather patterns.

Native run museums in British Columbia have been able to retain important and in some cases sacred objects in their communities through donations facilitated by the act.

Some people like to characterize these tax credits for donations of cultural property as loopholes for the wealthy.

I am thinking today of some constituents of mine. They are not people who drive $70,000 Cadillacs to Parliament Hill. For instance there is a research scientist for the federal government who has a group of seven painting which he inherited from his grandmother. He has loaned it to the art gallery of Windsor. A grade school teacher who is a friend of mine has collected primitive Inuit pieces over many years which I am sure she will ultimately donate. There is an anthropologist retired from the University of Windsor who has a collection of native relics. On Pelee Island in southwestern Ontario there are retired farmers who have exquisite collections of fossils and native relics. These are not wealthy people. These are not people for whom these so-called loopholes are gaining extraordinary advantage. These are people who would like to be able to make a donation of their precious collections.

Even if somebody is wealthy, and some donations are made by wealthy Canadians, this is consistent with their support of performing arts, of the arts community and of collecting institutions. Without their support Canada's museums, archives and libraries would not have the quality collections they now possess. Nor would we be able to actively participate in the international exchange of exhibitions and scholarships. Without strong collections in our custodial institutions we would have a reduced sense of our own identity and a diminished role internationally in the cultural domain.

Many individuals who have donated important objects of Canadiana have donated those objects from collections which have been with their families for generations. They have contributed to the preservation of Canada's history. These individuals have chosen to enrich the collection of a local or national institution rather than exporting the object for sale with the result that it would be lost to Canada forever. While they may receive a tax credit for their donation, it is nevertheless a philanthropic act on their part because the money they receive is equivalent to about 50 per cent of the fair market value of the object.

Donations ensure that we are able to maintain a record of artistic development in Canada and that artists receive the recognition and exposure in Canada they so richly deserve.

In today's economic climate few collecting institutions have funds to purchase objects and we must therefore rely on donations. By offering incentives for donations to custodial institutions that have demonstrated they meet professional standards, the Government of Canada is able to provide assistance to ensure that their collections continue to reflect our country's heritage. This is something that is certainly valued by the government if not by the Reform Party.

Responsibility for determining fair market value of cultural property has been transferred from Revenue Canada to the Canadian Cultural Property Export Review Board. This happened in 1991. However this arm's length board was making decisions which could not at that time be appealed. The establishment of an appeal process of the determinations of the Canadian Cultural Property Export Review Board proposed in this bill will permit any donor of cultural property who disagrees with its decision the opportunity to pursue this ultimately with the Tax Court of Canada. What could be fairer?

The amendments in this bill should be reviewed as a guarantee of the donor's right to natural justice through an appeal to the judicial system if that is warranted. These amendments should also be viewed as the reinstatement of the right of appeal that was lost in

1991 when the responsibility for determining fair market value was transferred to the review board.

The announcement of these proposed amendments was applauded by members of the public who enjoy and who value our cultural history, by collectors, by custodial institutions and by members of the review board itself. We believe that the establishment of this appeal process will strengthen the incentive for individuals to collect and ultimately to donate cultural property to designated institutions or public authorities rather than to sell it on the international market.

In recent months articles have appeared and comments have been made even in this House suggesting that tax avoidance schemes have extended to donations of cultural property.

Cultural Property Export And Import ActGovernment Orders

5:55 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Kilger)

I regret having to interrupt the member. Certainly she will have the opportunity to conclude her remarks when this bill comes back to the House for further debate.

The House resumed from September 21 consideration of Bill C-45, an act to amend the Corrections and Conditional Release Act, the Criminal Code, the Criminal Records Act, the Prisons and Reformatories Act and the Transfer of Offenders Act, as reported (with amendments) from the committee.

Corrections And Conditional Release ActGovernment Orders

5:55 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Kilger)

It being 6 p.m., pursuant to Standing Order 45, the House will now proceed to the taking of the deferred divisions at report stage of Bill C-45, an act to amend the Corrections and Conditional Release Act, the Criminal Code, the Criminal Records Act, the Prisons and Reformatories Act and the Transfer of Offenders Act.

Call in the members.

And the bells having rung:

Corrections And Conditional Release ActGovernment Orders

5:55 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Kilger)

The first question is on Motion No. 1.

(The House divided on Motion No. 1, which was negatived on the following division:)

Corrections And Conditional Release ActGovernment Orders

6:25 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Kilger)

I declare Motion No. 1 lost.

Corrections And Conditional Release ActGovernment Orders

6:25 p.m.

Liberal

Don Boudria Liberal Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON

Mr. Speaker, would you seek unanimous consent to apply the result of the vote just taken to report stage Motions Nos. 4, 5, 17 and 19 of the same bill?

Corrections And Conditional Release ActGovernment Orders

6:25 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Kilger)

Is there unanimous consent?

Corrections And Conditional Release ActGovernment Orders

6:25 p.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

Corrections And Conditional Release ActGovernment Orders

6:25 p.m.

Bloc

Gilles Duceppe Bloc Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC

Agreed.

Corrections And Conditional Release ActGovernment Orders

6:30 p.m.

Reform

Bob Ringma Reform Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC

Mr. Speaker, I understand that most of my colleagues will go along with this. That is their intention. If there are any exceptions I will expect them to rise.

Corrections And Conditional Release ActGovernment Orders

6:30 p.m.

NDP

Len Taylor NDP The Battlefords—Meadow Lake, SK

Agreed.

Corrections And Conditional Release ActGovernment Orders

6:30 p.m.

Liberal

Jag Bhaduria Liberal Markham—Whitchurch-Stouffville, ON

Mr. Speaker, I agree with the motion of the government House leader.

Corrections And Conditional Release ActGovernment Orders

6:30 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Kilger)

I declare Motions Nos. 4, 5, 17 and 19 negatived.

Corrections And Conditional Release ActGovernment Orders

6:30 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Kilger)

The next question is on Motion No. 7.

Corrections And Conditional Release ActGovernment Orders

6:30 p.m.

Liberal

Don Boudria Liberal Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON

Mr. Speaker, if you were to seek it, I believe there would be unanimous consent to apply the vote just taken on the previous motion, Motion No. 1, in reverse to the motion now before the House.