Debates of Sept. 27th, 1995

Canada-Quebec Economic Union

[Yvan Loubier, Bloc, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC]

Mr. Speaker, in his speech yesterday in Montreal, the Minister of Finance asserted that a sovereign Quebec would have difficulty joining the World Trade Organization or WTO, which recently replaced GATT. The Minister of Finance stated that Quebec would have to stand in line behind the 32 countries that have applied to become members of the WTO.

Does the Minister of Finance admit that, under the WTO accession clause, Quebec's admission will be all the faster and easier because Quebec already meets membership requirements?

[Paul Martin, Liberal, Minister of Finance and Minister responsible for the Federal Office of Regional Development-Quebec]

That is the problem, Mr. Speaker. I have just read a list of Quebec practices that will not be accepted by other WTO members. That is exactly my point.

These practices will be challenged by the U.S., the European Community and other countries. That is why the cost of joining the WTO and NAFTA will be so high.

[Yvan Loubier, Bloc, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC]

It is obvious, Mr. Speaker, that the Minister of Finance does not know what he is talking about.

My question to him is this: How can the Minister of Finance claim that Quebec will have to take a number to join the WTO, when he knows-and I hope he knows it-that the reason these 32 countries are waiting for admission is because they do not have a market economy; that Quebec already meets WTO requirements; that Quebec is not too small, and that we are not incompetents either since Quebec is the Americans' eighth largest trading partner? Does he at least know this, Mr. Speaker?

[Paul Martin, Liberal, Minister of Finance and Minister responsible for the Federal Office of Regional Development-Quebec]

Mr. Speaker, Saudi Arabia and Taiwan have market economies and they are on the waiting list. Yesterday, Mr. Landry said that only countries from Eastern Europe were on the waiting list.

Let me tell you something: Taiwan is in Asia, and Saudi Arabia is in Arabia. I know full well that separatists need lessons in economics, but we now see that they also need geography lessons.

Justice

[Preston Manning, Reform, Calgary Southwest, AB]

Mr. Speaker, hundreds of Canadians have gathered on the lawns of Parliament Hill today and it is not over a concern with respect to the Quebec referendum or trade treaties that has brought them together.

It is a more fundamental concern about the safety of their children and their loved ones. These are ordinary folks and their demand is very simple. They want the government to do more to protect the lives and property of Canadians from criminals. They want the rights of victims to be placed above the rights of criminals.

What does the justice minister propose not to say but to do for Melanie Carpenter's father and all of the victims of violence who feel that in Canada the state, the law, the government, the parole board and the justice system have failed them in a tragic and fundamental way?

[Allan Rock, Liberal, Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada]

Mr. Speaker, it was my high privilege to address that rally on the lawn of Parliament Hill an hour or two ago. It was my honour to meet yesterday morning with Steve Carpenter, the father of Melanie, and with Maurice Rose whose son was murdered in Montreal.

As I told those gathered on Parliament Hill today, since I have been Minister of Justice I have made it a point to meet with victims and the families of victims of crime, not because it is easy-it is often terribly difficult-but because I believe that through the tragedy they have suffered they have something to offer. They have a perspective to offer on criminal justice reform which has helped me in my work.

When I spoke to that group today I recounted some of the things the government has done over the last 15 months. We have introduced more meaningful reform to the criminal justice system than any federal government in memory.

The leader of the third party and his colleagues want to know what has been done. Let me remind the leader of the third party what has been done often over the objection and with the opposition of the third party: meaningful amendments to the Young Offenders Act, introducing DNA provisions under the Criminal

Code, meaningful gun control, improvements to the parole system, strengthening the criminal justice sentencing process, and ruling out self-induced intoxication.

[Preston Manning, Reform, Calgary Southwest, AB]

Mr. Speaker, if the minister had done all these wonderful things for the victims of violence there would not be hundreds of people on the lawns of Parliament today.

Victims of violence listen politely to these recitations from the minister of all the things he is supposedly doing, but their greater concern is with the things the government is not doing: the failure to repeal section 745 of the code; the failure to create a registry of sexual offenders by September, as the solicitor general promised; the refusal to include real victim compensation in Bill C-45; and the absence of a victims rights package in anything the minister has presented to the House.

Besides the cosmetic changes the minister has referred to, what more does he plan to do to change the justice system so that Canada's streets are safer from violent criminals, sex offenders and murderers?

[Allan Rock, Liberal, Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada]

Mr. Speaker, my list was not of things we are talking about. My list was of measures that have already been achieved.

Instead of just speaking about a list of victims rights, which is something the third party is fond of doing, instead of just proclaiming a bill of rights for victims which is politically attractive, we prefer to enact those rights as we have done.

If the leader of the third party does not know, let me tell him that what has been done has been to amend the Criminal Code to provide for victim impact statements wherever they are prepared; to allow for the return of stolen property; to protect the identity of victims and witnesses of sexual offences and extortion; to levy victims fine surcharges; to amend the code to permit the courts to order restitution to victims; and to amend the Corrections and Conditional Release Act to recognize the role of victims in relation to federal corrections. This is the list of action taken in the name of victims.

[Preston Manning, Reform, Calgary Southwest, AB]

Mr. Speaker, the minister refers to enacting rights. There is a growing conflict in the country between the rights of victims of crime and potential victims of crime and the rights of persons accused or convicted of crimes. In more and more cases the scales of justice are tipped on the side of violent criminals, sex offenders and murderers. This cannot be allowed to continue. When rights clash it is the rights of the victims that ought to prevail over the rights of the criminals.

My question to the minister is on rights since he raised the subject. When the rights of victims conflict with the rights of persons accused or convicted of crimes, what is he doing to ensure that it is the rights of the victims that prevail in Canadian law?

[Allan Rock, Liberal, Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada]

Mr. Speaker, the first and most fundamental right of any victim is the same as the first and most fundamental right of any Canadian, to a fair, responsive and strong system of criminal justice. Since our first day in office that has been our focus.

Before concluding, I am constrained to observe that for a party so consumed with the rights of victims it is passing strange that it turns a deaf ear when the victims rights groups, including CAVEAT and its principal, Priscilla de Villiers, speak passionately and call for the Reform Party to support our proposals on gun control.

Division Of The Federal Debt

[Michel Gauthier, Bloc, Roberval, QC]

Mr. Speaker, the federal debt is close to $600 billion. The Quebec government has made it clear that a sovereign Quebec would take its share of the responsibility for the federal debt. Yesterday in his speech, the finance minister, who excluded any negotiations with a sovereign Quebec, remained strangely silent on the division of the federal debt.

Would the finance minister agree that the federal government's enormous debt will make it incumbent on the government, in its own interest and in view of its responsibilities, to start negotiations with Quebec the day after the referendum, starting with the division of the debt?

[Paul Martin, Liberal, Minister of Finance and Minister responsible for the Federal Office of Regional Development-Quebec]

Mr. Speaker, the day after the referendum we will all continue to build Canada together, because it is quite clear the No side will win.

Am I to understand that the hon. member is repeating the unfortunate statement made by Mr. Campeau three or four months ago and this morning by Mrs. Dionne-Marsolais, that an independent Quebec will not accept its fair share of the federal debt? Is that what the hon. member is saying?

[Michel Gauthier, Bloc, Roberval, QC]

Mr. Speaker, that is exactly what I am not saying. I just explained to the minister, and I will repeat my explanation, to make sure he understands, unless he has no answer and that is why. I will explain.

The Quebec government has very clearly announced its intention to assume its responsibility in connection with the tremendous federal debt. Yesterday the minister avoided any questions on the

subject by saying he would not negotiate with Quebec in any area whatsoever. He did not broach the subject of the debt.

Will the Minister of Finance admit that, faced with pressures from the financial community, he has no choice but to negotiate with Quebec after a win for the Yes side, because Canada is incapable-

[The Speaker]

My dear colleagues, during Question Period I allow as much time as I can for the questions that are put, but we go somewhat beyond the limit, even ask questions that are hypothetical-

[An hon. member]

The minister's speech is hypothetical.

[The Speaker]

We get either hypothetical speeches or hypothetical questions.

[An hon. member]

Ha, ha.

[The Speaker]

I would ask hon. members when they start rise to please ask questions that are relevant to the government's administration. Now if the finance minister wishes to answer this question, he may.

[Paul Martin, Liberal, Minister of Finance and Minister responsible for the Federal Office of Regional Development-Quebec]

Mr. Speaker, I will answer, since they have so much trouble asking questions.

If the hon. member wishes to ask hypothetical questions, we can do that too. If the debt of a separate Quebec were to triple or worse, how high would the resulting interest rates be for us Quebecers? How much would our income tax go up? What kind of cuts would we see in social services? They would be draconian.

[The Speaker]

I invite you to return to concrete questions and concrete answers.

Camp Ipperwash

[Art Hanger, Reform, Calgary Northeast, AB]

Mr. Speaker, the Canadian agenda has more to it than the referendum. Law and order are still on the decline in the country.

Not only do we have violent offenders roaming our neighbourhoods and streets, there are areas where policing has almost ceased to exist. Ipperwash is one example. Sexual assaults, firearms discharged at persons, arson, break and enter go uninvestigated. In fact Ipperwash-

[The Speaker]

I know the hon. member is having a tough time with his voice. Perhaps I can help him by asking him to put the question.

[Art Hanger, Reform, Calgary Northeast, AB]

Mr. Speaker, the list of victims is growing in Ipperwash. When will the solicitor general take action to ensure that the law is applied equally to everyone, which includes militant natives?

[Herb Gray, Liberal, Leader of the Government in the House of Commons and Solicitor General of Canada]

Mr. Speaker, the approach of the federal government is that the law applies equally to everyone.

We should praise the professionalism and expertise of the RCMP when, working as the provincial police on behalf of the attorney general of British Columbia, it diffused without violence and loss of life the Gustafsen Lake situation, with the people involved being brought before the courts and facing criminal charges.

When it comes to the Ipperwash situation, that involves the application of the Criminal Code by police of local jurisdiction who, I am sure the hon. member should know, are the Ontario Provincial Police.

[Art Hanger, Reform, Calgary Northeast, AB]

Mr. Speaker, the minister should tell that to the people who live there. They have lost faith in the police, especially with the do-nothing Liberal government that refuses to act.

People are now arming themselves for protection because they have been abandoned by the federal government and fear for their lives. The minister is neglecting his responsibility to Canadians because he is catering to special interest groups.

Why is the solicitor general allowing a group of organized armed thugs to bully the federal government, the police and the people of Ipperwash?