House of Commons Hansard #81 of the 35th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was price.

Topics

Government ServicesOral Question Period

Noon

Winnipeg—St. James Manitoba

Liberal

John Harvard LiberalParliamentary Secretary to Minister of Public Works and Government Services

Mr. Speaker, I thank the hon. member for his question. I appreciate his keen interest in the matter.

I do have good news for him. There will be a new paper version of the phone directory available to the public in January, about three months from now. I mention the new paper version because this directory is already on the Internet. It can be accessed at the Government of Canada home page. All one has to do is click on that little red phone on one's computer screen and the Internet message number is http:canada.gc.ca.

Presence In GalleryOral Question Period

Noon

The Speaker

I draw the attention of hon. members to the presence in the gallery of the members of the German/Canadian Friendship Group from the German Bundestag led by Mr. Siegfried Hornung.

Presence In GalleryOral Question Period

Noon

Some hon. members

Hear, hear.

Point Of OrderOral Question Period

Noon

Bloc

Suzanne Tremblay Bloc Rimouski—Témiscouata, QC

Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order under Beauchesne, which is very clear. The President of the Treasury Board said earlier that my colleague made false statements, which is tantamount to accusing the member for Richmond-Wolfe of lying in the House.

The member came at this honestly, referring to remarks made by the minister, which can be found on page 5059 of Hansard:

In Quebec, the proportion of anglophones and allophones is nearly 20 per cent, and consequently we have a proportionate number of bilingual public servants which reflects the needs of the province.

We are quoting the minister. So my colleague made no false allegation. Mr. Speaker, I ask the President of the Treasury Board to withdraw his remarks.

Point Of OrderOral Question Period

Noon

The Speaker

Dear colleagues, the President of the Treasury Board is here. If he wishes to add anything to these comments, I invite him to speak.

Point Of OrderOral Question Period

Noon

Hull—Aylmer Québec

Liberal

Marcel Massé LiberalPresident of the Treasury Board and Minister responsible for Infrastructure

Mr. Speaker, the false allegations that have been made show clearly through the hon. member's question, since it includes personal allegations which, in my opinion, show disrespect for the dignity of the House and the other hon. members.

This is an unfortunate tendency, and one which ought not to exist in this House. The members of the opposition should stop making false personal allegations, should stop attributing motives which are false, should stop claiming that any Quebecer who does not follow their way of thinking, for one reason or another, is a traitor to his race and his roots.

The question from the opposition members needs careful rereading, and it will be seen to contain false allegations that are not based on fact, that are contrary to reality, that are evidence of a type of effrontery and arrogance that ought never to be tolerated in this House.

Point Of OrderOral Question Period

12:05 p.m.

The Speaker

I believe, dear colleagues, the words in question here are "false allegations". At times, we use language in our debates which comes very close to crossing the line into unparliamentary language.

I would like, if I may, to ask all of the hon. members to cease using inflammatory language during our debates. We have seen today that one side has interpreted the matter one way, and the other side, another way. I would simply ask you not to use terms like "false", because they stir up controversy here in the House.

I do find, however, concerning the point of order, that the minister has explained what he meant to say with use of the term "false". I believe that he ought to have withdrawn the words in his explanation, and I would ask him that directly. I would ask the minister, after his explanation, whether he will withdraw the word "false", which he used here in the House?

Point Of OrderOral Question Period

12:05 p.m.

Liberal

Marcel Massé Liberal Hull—Aylmer, QC

Mr. Speaker, now that you have given me the opportunity to explain clearly why I responded as I did, I consider the allegation withdrawn.

Point Of OrderOral Question Period

12:05 p.m.

The Speaker

Very well. If there is another point of order, I will listen to it, but I consider this one closed.

Point Of OrderOral Question Period

12:05 p.m.

Bloc

Suzanne Tremblay Bloc Rimouski—Témiscouata, QC

Mr. Speaker, I would ask you to take this point of order under advisement, for his first reply just added insult to injury. If stating that the minister is a francophone and an elected member for Quebec is false, than I wish he would reveal his true identity.

Point Of OrderOral Question Period

12:05 p.m.

The Speaker

Yes, if the hon. member wishes me to look at Hansard, I shall do so. If it is necessary, if I deem it necessary, I will get back to the House.

Employment Equity ActRoutine Proceedings

12:05 p.m.

Reform

Ted White Reform North Vancouver, BC

moved for leave to introduce Bill C-332, an act to amend the Employment Equity Act (elimination of designated group and numerical goals) and the Canadian Human Rights Act.

Mr Speaker, I am very pleased to rise today to present a private member's bill which would deliver on the wishes expressed by my constituents.

The bill amends the Employment Equity Act to remove the concept of designated groups and numerical goals and to repeal the employer's reporting requirements. It will come into force when the Employment Equity Act comes into force.

(Motions deemed adopted, bill read the first time and printed.)

Immigration ActRoutine Proceedings

12:10 p.m.

Reform

Ted White Reform North Vancouver, BC

moved for leave to introduce Bill C-333, an act to amend the Immigration Act and the Criminal Code (refugee or immigrant applicants convicted of an offence on indictment).

Mr. Speaker, this is a very important bill which was developed with the assistance of a Liberal supporting lawyer in my riding. If passed and accepted by this government, it would give the power to provincial judges to deport criminal refugees in lieu of sentence.

It is supported by some crown prosecutors in the Vancouver area. I think it is a great bill and I look forward to debating it in the House.

(Motions deemed adopted, bill read the first time and printed.)

PetitionsRoutine Proceedings

October 4th, 1996 / 12:10 p.m.

Liberal

John Bryden Liberal Hamilton—Wentworth, ON

Mr. Speaker, it is with great pleasure that I present an entirely spontaneous petition from all across the country that would call on Parliament to take measures to withdraw charitable status from special interest groups.

By special interest groups I believe the petitioners mean those groups that lobby on behalf of particular interests and yet receive government funding because of their charitable status.

Canadians from one end of the country to the other would support the initiative in this petition 100 per cent.

PetitionsRoutine Proceedings

12:10 p.m.

Liberal

Janko Peric Liberal Cambridge, ON

Mr. Speaker, today I have the privilege of presenting to the House two petitions from concerned citizens in my riding of Cambridge.

The first petition contains approximately 400 signatures and requests that the Parliament of Canada amend the Criminal Code to ensure that anyone convicted of impaired driving causing death receive a sentence from seven years to a maximum of fourteen years.

PetitionsRoutine Proceedings

12:10 p.m.

Liberal

Janko Peric Liberal Cambridge, ON

Mr. Speaker, the second petition urges the government to enact legislation to prohibit convicted criminals from profiting financially by selling the details of their crimes to others for publication through books, movies and videos.

PetitionsRoutine Proceedings

12:10 p.m.

Bloc

Philippe Paré Bloc Louis-Hébert, QC

Mr. Speaker, of all Canadian institutions, surely the most controversial is the other house.

Pursuant to Standing Order 36, the petitioners, 2379 in number, are calling upon Parliament to take steps to abolish the Senate.

PetitionsRoutine Proceedings

12:10 p.m.

Reform

Dave Chatters Reform Athabasca, AB

Mr. Speaker, this is a bit like asking someone to close the barn door after the horses have escaped, but in spite of that I rise today to present a petition signed by 97 of my constituents who wish to draw the attention of the House to their belief that the privileges which society accords to heterosexual couples should not be extended to same sex relationships, and their fear that the inclusion of the term sexual orientation in the Canadian Human Rights Act will be seen as societal approval for same sex marriages.

PetitionsRoutine Proceedings

12:10 p.m.

Liberal

Maria Minna Liberal Beaches—Woodbine, ON

Mr. Speaker, I would like to table a petition from Canadians who encourage the government to ensure that Canada remains united and indivisible in the future.

PetitionsRoutine Proceedings

12:15 p.m.

Reform

Ted White Reform North Vancouver, BC

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to rise today to present a petition on behalf of Mr. Bob Hackett and 32 other residents of North Vancouver who point out that currently Canadian law does not prohibit convicted criminals from profiting financially by writing books, setting up 1-900 numbers, producing videos and so on.

The petitioners ask that Parliament enact Bill C-205, introduced by the hon. member for Scarborough West, at the earliest opportunity, to provide in Canadian law that no criminal profits from committing a crime.

Questions On The Order PaperRoutine Proceedings

12:15 p.m.

Winnipeg North Manitoba

Liberal

Rey D. Pagtakhan LiberalParliamentary Secretary to Prime Minister

Mr. Speaker, I ask that all questions be allowed to stand.

Questions On The Order PaperRoutine Proceedings

12:15 p.m.

The Speaker

Is it agreed?

Questions On The Order PaperRoutine Proceedings

12:15 p.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

The House resumed consideration of the motion that Bill C-55, an act to amend the Criminal Code (high risk offenders), the Corrections and Conditional Release Act, the Criminal Records Act, the Prisons and Reformatories Act and the Department of the Solicitor General Act, be read the second time and referred to a committee.

Criminal CodeGovernment Orders

12:15 p.m.

Reform

Jack Ramsay Reform Crowfoot, AB

Mr. Speaker, I have listened with interest to the comments of my colleagues from all parties represented in the House on Bill C-55. I would like to indicate that there are good portions in this bill. However, we do not think it goes far enough and I will be dealing with some of those aspects during my speech today.

On September 14 of last year an article appeared in the Financial Post containing figures from Correctional Services Canada. These figures, the author said, and I concur, are worrisome and clearly indicate the system does not protect the public from convicted murderers and other dangerous predators. These figures demonstrate a need for additional Criminal Code changes which go far beyond Bill C-55.

According to a chart furnished by the solicitor general to Diane Francis, editor of the Financial Post , between 1989 and 1994 no fewer than 78 people committed murder while they were on conditional release. This means 15 innocent people were killed each year in this country during that period of time by people who were on conditional release.

The same figures reveal that some 4,960 persons convicted of a lesser violent offence such as child molestation, manslaughter, rape or attempted murder repeated their crimes while on conditional release. Miss Francis concluded: "Those figures are awful". I concur.

Statistics do not provide an adequate picture of how repeat offenders become progressively more violent. Therefore, I would like to provide the House with evidence that supports a need not only for Bill C-55, but a need for additional Criminal Code amendments as well.

Since 1975, Allan Wayne Walsh of Mission, B.C. had more than 60 convictions for kidnapping, confining women, sex crimes, robbery and weapons offences. In 1983, he was convicted of 26 offences, including two counts of rape, and sentenced to 25 years in prison. Ten years later he was out on parole. Within months he used a knife to try to rape one woman and then raped and robbed another. On September 21, 1995 he was convicted of seven new offences, including sexual assault, which led the crown to have him declared a dangerous offender.

These seven additional offences never would have occurred if Walsh had served his full 25-year sentence. Seven innocent people would have remained unharmed if this dangerous offender had served out his full sentence of 25 years. I ask the question: Why do we continue to release high risk offenders into society to go on to reoffend?

Reform believes in truth in sentencing for violent criminals in the absence of a dangerous offender designation. Truth in sentencing means that if a 25-year sentence is imposed a 25-year sentence is served. In essence we support no parole for violent offenders; no reduction in the term decided by the court on consideration of the facts.

Why would government members want a court, a judge, perhaps a jury to consider all of the facts and the circumstances and impose a penalty based on those facts and circumstances and then have a parole board second guess them and reduce the time that a violent offender spends in jail? They will not answer that question.

Ronald Richard McCauley, another B.C. rapist, was sentenced to 17 years after two vicious rapes in which the victims were left for dead. At the time of sentencing McCauley had a criminal record dating back to 1969. When McCauley came up for parole in 1992 he admitted to the parole board that if he had not been caught he would have become a serial killer like Clifford Olson. The board, noting that McCauley appeared to benefit only superficially from treatment, turned down his request for early parole.

In 1994, two years later, McCauley got statutory release. According to a September 25, 1995 newspaper article, Mr. McCauley is now a suspect in the murder of two Vancouver prostitutes.

The Reform Party proposes that Bill C-55 be amended by eliminating statutory release. Melanie Carpenter would not have been murdered if Mr. Auger had not been free on statutory release.

In 1983 James Ronald Robinson of Ottawa was convicted of manslaughter in the stabbing death of Roxanne Nairn, a 17-year-old grade 12 student. He was sentenced to three years on a manslaughter conviction, but was released early, despite being caught trying to smuggle hashish into jail while returning from an unescorted temporary release.

In 1990 Robinson spent two years in jail for raping and threatening to kill a woman he had lived with after his release from prison. On March 6, 1995 he was charged with another count of sexual assault.

Despite having consecutive sentences adding up to 27 years and despite having committed crimes while on parole, Claude Forget was given an escorted pass to visit his sister in 1993. He escaped. Two months later he shot two police officers.

In September of 1995 he was up for parole after serving only a fraction of his sentence because the parole loophole required any new sentence to be merged with an existing sentence. In Forget's case this meant he was eligible to apply for parole almost as soon as he was convicted of the attempted murders. Forget was granted a full parole hearing in December of 1995.

In 1986 Martin Dubuc, a Montreal hockey coach, was convicted of molesting team members. After his release from prison he did not let a lifetime ban on coaching in Quebec stop him. He changed locales, becoming a coach and eventually president of the minor hockey association of southwest Montreal. As well, three different school boards in the Montreal area hired him as a substitute teacher. In September of 1995 he pleaded guilty to using the telephone to threaten boys aged 10 to 13.

More and more of these types of cases will occur unless additional amendments are made to the Criminal Code that go beyond the scope of Bill C-55. There will be no discernible impact on repeat offender rates unless the government is willing to go the extra mile.

The Liberal's soft on crime approach to justice is not working. What we need to do is implement zero tolerance for violent and sex offenders, which means we come down hard on those criminals who prey on the weak and vulnerable members of our society.

Under Bill C-55 high risk offenders will still be released back into society and Canadians will still remain at risk, even though there are some minimal forms of supervision in place. The only way to truly protect Canadians from high risk offenders is to keep them locked up where there is absolutely no risk of them reoffending. In the case of any serious personal injury, all of those convicted should serve out their full sentences.

Reform proposes that Bill C-55 be amended for greater certainty to require courts to automatically place a dangerous offender finding on any person who commits on two or more separate occasions an offence constituting a serious personal injury offence and subject them to an indeterminate period of incarceration.

Reform also recommends, in support of our colleague from Surrey White Rock-South Langley private member's Bill C-254, that Bill C-55 be amended to allow for dangerous offender findings to be made at any time after sentencing. The crown must be given the right to seek dangerous offender status for persons convicted of serious crimes causing serious personal injury at any time during that offender's penitentiary sentence.

Why would we release an offender if it is clear that offender has not been rehabilitated and will go on to target innocent children or adults on release? That is what Bill C-55 will do.

Reform also supports amending Bill C-55 to expand the list of criminal offences on which a dangerous offender application may be brought to include pedophiles and other sexual predators. There is probably no crime short of murder that offends the sensibilities and the values of a community more than the sexual assault of children. In many ways it is the most unconscionable of criminal acts because it victimizes the weakest, most vulnerable and most innocent among us.

It is not surprising that the public recoils in horror with the news that a pedophile is being released into the community after completing his jail sentence, particularly when the convicted pedophile is considered a high risk to reoffend.

In December 1995 Manitobans were warned about the danger of a released sexual offender who police claimed was a high risk to reoffend. The Winnipeg police were concerned Osborne could either attack someone he knew or simply attack a stranger. Douglas James Osborne was released from Stony Mountain Institution on November 23, 1995 after serving a three-year sentence for sexual assault. He was not to be under any supervision on his release.

Also in December 1995 the York Regional Police in Ontario issued a public alert warning to York and Durham residents of the release of Donald John Jones. The police considered there was a high risk that this sexual sadist, as termed by the police, would attempt to attack other women. Jones refused to take treatment for his sexual deviance while incarcerated in Kingston Penitentiary. He had a criminal record dating back to 1970 when he was sentenced to five years for sexually assaulting a 59-year-old Whitby woman in 1981. Jones attacked an 18-year-old convenience store clerk in 1986 while on a pass from the Kingston pen. He also sexually assaulted a 78-year-old woman in 1987 while out on another temporary pass. Is it not wonderful that these people are allowed passes before there is any assurance they have been rehabilitated? They go on and on to commit offence after offence against innocent people.

Reform proposes Bill C-55 be amended to eliminate any type of temporary release for sexual offenders. As stated earlier, we propose Bill C-55 be amended to include sex offenders in the dangerous offenders designation. We also propose that the review of indeterminate sentence of sex offenders include the examination and recommendation of at least two psychiatrists.

Sex offenders, especially child molesters, have a high repeat rate. The only way to keep our children safe, the only way to prevent sexual predators from taking victims and destroying the life of another innocent child is to keep them locked up, keep them incarcerated, keep them away from those they wish to target, keep

them incarcerated indefinitely as dangerous offenders until there is absolutely no risk of them reoffending.

I do not think there is anyone in Canada, certainly not in this House, who would want to see someone after they have served their term of imprisonment, on being completely rehabilitated, kept in prison. That is not the point. The point is that we must protect society by ensuring that those who have a high risk to reoffend are not released back into society.

No one should be released from prison if they exhibit signs or evidence they will reoffend. We have the power to protect the Melanie Carpenters of this country. We have the power to protect all the citizens of this country. Bill C-55 moves in that direction but it does not go far enough.

In closing, I would like to read for members of this House an Edmonton Sun editorial written by Linda Slobodian:

On July 16, a 36-year-old Edmonton man was sentenced to 71

2 years in jail for repeatedly sexually assaulting two relatives when they were little girls. He was found guilty on numerous sexual offences.

Yet less than three months later he's back out on the street. Little wonder one of his victims, now 26, says she feels "betrayed" by the court system.

"I felt justice had been served", says the victim who testified the assaults started when she was three or four, soon progressed to intercourse, and lasted a number of years.

"Now that he's walking free, I feel it was a waste of time getting up there and mutilating ourselves in front of everyone at the trial. It was so difficult, embarrassing giving all those details", she says.

Court heard the convicted man's abuse of the other victim, her sister who is now 24, started when she was about four and also progressed to intercourse.

The convicted man faces more charges, involving other young relatives, for which he's scheduled to go on trial in the middle of this month.

How can it be that someone who gets such a heavy sentence for deplorable crimes against children gets out so soon?

He put in an application for an appeal. He's not get been granted one but on Sept. 27 he was released on bail.

That isn't all that unusual in our justice system.

The victims received a call Tuesday from his parole officer advising them he'd been released a few days earlier.

"I flipped out" says the victims' mother. "He was found guilty of rape, among other things. We phoned (Justice Minister) Brian Evans. His staff said, `That's the justice system"'.

This is the justice system we are presently burdened with in this country and that we speak out against and implore the justice minister to do something about. It is due to the bleeding heart

mentality which continues to exist in this place to place the rights of the criminal ahead of the rights of those two innocent rape victims. It is due to the fact that we have a federal justice minister who, in the words of one grieving father whose daughter was murdered, is a friend of the criminal. The justice minister has now been labelled by citizens of this country as a friend of the criminal.

Reform proposes we drastically overhaul the justice system. Our first priority will be to make the protection of society and the rights of the victim the guiding principles of justice in this country.