Debates of Oct. 8th, 1996

Canadian Armed Forces

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, General Boyle, who met with the defence minister, sent me his letter of resignation this morning. I accepted it with regret. I did not ask him to resign, but he felt it was in the interest of the Canadian armed forces and of the defence minister that he hand in his resignation.

It was his personal decision. He made it in the interest of the troops. We were of the opinion that he could have waited until the end of the inquiry to see whether he had committed an error or not. But he thought, because of the controversy in which he found himself, that it was in the interest of the new defence minister to be able to choose his staff. I think his consideration is very admirable and very courageous.

I thanked him for his service to the country. Now that he has gone, the defence minister will recommend, in the near future I hope, a successor. In the meantime, General Boyle's assistant will perform his duties on an acting basis.

[Michel Gauthier, Bloc, Leader of the Opposition]

Mr. Speaker, last week the Prime Minister tried to convince us that the former defence minister had resigned over an action that had absolutely nothing to do with the Somalia inquiry. The minister was saved by an unfortunate letter.

Now, he is trying to convince us that the chief of defence staff has resigned, but that nobody had anything to do with it, when we know that officials from his own department were talking with the general for several hours yesterday afternoon. The Prime Minister can always take another run at it.

I would simply like to say this: Will the Prime Minister not admit that the fact is that he was too protective of his friend, the former defence minister, who in turn protected his friend the chief of defence staff, all in order to avoid admitting that he made a mistake in choosing the former defence minister, who made a mistake in choosing General Boyle?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, the defence minister's letter of resignation Friday was very clear, and that was his only reason for resigning. He sent me a letter of resignation, which I accepted, because he had been informed that he had committed an error, in contravention of the guidelines issued to all ministers. He assumed his responsibilities with great honesty. I know that all members in this House will want to acknowledge that over the last three years the Minister of National Defence who resigned Friday did an exceptional job, efficiently carrying out the necessary cuts, closing bases, and reducing the number of employees and generals. I am very proud of him.

[Michel Gauthier, Bloc, Leader of the Opposition]

Mr. Speaker, perhaps we should take a leaf from the army's book and record the exploits of the former defence minister on video?

Can the Prime Minister assure us, first of all, that the lengthy discussions in his own department yesterday, between his officials and General Boyle, were not for the purpose of making General Boyle's exit an easy one, and second, will he promise that no offer will be made to General Boyle before we know the conclusions of an interim report that will shed light on the falsification of documents in the Canadian armed forces?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, General Boyle has handed in his resignation. He has not asked the government for any favours. He even clearly said that he did not wish to receive an appointment, even if we had wanted to offer him one. And he will leave under conditions suitable for a retiring chief of defence staff.

[Pierre Brien, Bloc, Témiscamingue, QC]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Defence.

Yesterday, the new Minister of National Defence stated that the problem would not be solved by assigning responsibility to a single individual, but by tackling the whole system.

Yesterday, the new Minister of National Defence said that the idea of an interim report to cast light on operation document tampering, as demanded by the official opposition, was an interesting one.

Does the minister realize now that this is not merely an interesting idea; the government has no choice but to require an

interim report, and promptly, if it wishes to get to the bottom of this scandal and find out all those involved.

[Douglas Young, Liberal, Minister of National Defence and Minister of Veterans Affairs]

Mr. Speaker, it is very important to keep tabs on what one says in this House and elsewhere. What I said to the hon. member and others is that I was going to look at the suggestions made by Mps and others.

What is important for me at this time is to acknowledge that the chief of staff has submitted his resignation and that it has been accepted. Now we will proceed to investigate the Somalia situation thoroughly.

Perhaps this is the time to indicate that those calling for an interim report on what has been found out to date in the Somalia inquiry ought to keep in mind as well that it is also important to find out exactly what went on in Somalia.

We ought not to lose sight of the fact that what is important here for Canadians is to know what happened there, who was responsible, how such a thing could happen, and how it can be prevented from happening again. That is what we will be trying to find out.

[Pierre Brien, Bloc, Témiscamingue, QC]

Mr. Speaker, having an interim report does nothing to prevent a complete investigation of what else went on in Somalia.

Does the explanation of the minister's reticence to call for an interim report not lie in the fact that his government does not want a report on document tampering to come out before the next elections. This could smear not only General Boyle but also, of course, the former Minister of Defence and the Prime Minister himself?

[Douglas Young, Liberal, Minister of National Defence and Minister of Veterans Affairs]

Mr. Speaker, in recent days, two people have taken some very difficult steps. First my colleague, the former Minister of National Defence, resigned, and now today, General Boyle has done so as well.

I will take advantage of this opportunity to ask my honourable colleague whether he is serious about wanting to find out just what happened in this entire incident, as he was calling for yesterday in terms of an interim report on the entire Somalia situation. I am prepared to commit the government, provided we have the support of the opposition and the other members of this House, to making a request to the Parliament of Canada from the House of Commons, asking those who are investigating the Somalia events not only to provide us with an interim report, but also to give us a report on what went on in Somalia so that action may be taken as soon as we have it in hand, by the end of March, as set out in the instructions given to the inquiry.

National Defence

[Preston Manning, Reform, Calgary Southwest, AB]

Mr. Speaker, as all members know, on Friday the Minister of National Defence resigned and today the chief of defence staff has resigned. These resignations have been accepted by the government. We want to congratulate the Prime Minister on belatedly and finally acknowledging that there has been a leadership problem at the top.

As recently as last week the Prime Minister was telling this House that General Boyle and the former Minister of National Defence enjoyed the government's complete confidence. Will the Prime Minister explain to the House what happened between last Thursday and today to destroy that confidence?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, on Friday the Minister of National Defence gave me a letter of resignation. I accepted it. The letter of resignation was very clear. The letter of acceptance of the resignation was very clear. They are public documentation.

The former Minister of National Defence showed a high degree of public service when he said: "Unfortunately, I broke the guidelines that you have established, Prime Minister. I resign". I said that I hope some day I will have the opportunity to welcome him back in the cabinet. He is a very honourable man, a good parliamentarian and a dedicated Canadian.

[Preston Manning, Reform, Calgary Southwest, AB]

Mr. Speaker, the Prime Minister's explanation is incomplete and contradictory.

The former defence minister was allegedly forced to resign for interfering with a quasi-judicial tribunal. This apparently violated an ethical guideline of cabinet. Yet over the last two years, seven other ministers of the government have interfered with the CRTC, a quasi-judicial tribunal, and have gotten off scot free.

Will the Prime Minister release to this House these ethical guidelines which permit seven cabinet ministers to interfere with the tribunal without penalty, but which required the minister of defence to resign for doing so?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, when I formed the government three years ago, there were no guidelines of conduct for ministers in relation to their communications with quasi-judicial bodies.

When we had a controversy in the House, I said that they were to be clarified. I have clarified them. The ministers received new instructions after that. Unfortunately, in the case of the former Minister of National Defence, he broke the guidelines.

These guidelines existed in writing in previous governments. They were never made public. They are instructions from the Prime Minister to his ministers. It is for the ministers to deal with the Prime Minister.

In the case on Friday, I received a letter of resignation and I accepted the letter.

[Preston Manning, Reform, Calgary Southwest, AB]

Mr. Speaker, my question was simply, would the Prime Minister release to this House these guidelines that permit this contradictory behaviour.

Some of us come from jurisdictions, for example a jurisdiction in Alberta, where the most rookie minister of the government knows there are only three ways to communicate to a quasi-judicial tribunal: through the statutes, through an order in council, or through public testimony before the tribunal.

Why is it so difficult for that rule to get established in practice here? I ask the Prime Minister, will he submit to the House these ethical guidelines which permit such contradictory behaviour from his ministers?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, there is a reality that we debated in this House. A minister of the crown at the same time is a member of Parliament. He has some obligation to the people who vote for him to try to help them solve their problems. The minister as a member of Parliament indicated in his letter what he had done. He broke the guidelines but he will always have the responsibility of being a member of Parliament.

It is very difficult to combine the two responsibilities. I advise the ministers to be very prudent. In this case the minister felt that he had been imprudent. I checked and the guidelines were broken and I have accepted his resignation. It is a very honourable thing.

If the hon. member thinks that this is not severe enough, tell me, should there not be any members of Parliament made cabinet ministers? It is that way in other jurisdictions. In France a member of Parliament has to resign his seat as a member of Parliament to become a member of the cabinet, but I am a defender of the British tradition and I am following the British rules.

Access To Information

[Suzanne Tremblay, Bloc, Rimouski—Témiscouata, QC]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Prime Minister.

According to today's issue of the Globe and Mail , the government has devised a parallel system enabling the Prime Minister's Office to organize as it pleases the management of information requested under the Access to Information Act.

Will the Prime Minister confirm the existence of such a system?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, the government is the government. The Privy Council must ensure that what goes on in all the departments is co-ordinated and that, if there is any problem in the public administration, the Prime Minister is informed.

Putting in place the necessary mechanisms to know what goes on in the public service is the first rule of good management for a Prime Minister. This is precisely the way I run the government.

[Suzanne Tremblay, Bloc, Rimouski—Témiscouata, QC]

Mr. Speaker, the access to information request concerning the former defence minister goes back to August.

How does the Prime Minister explain that he stood up for his former minister throughout this period, when he was fully aware that his minister might have violated the code of ethics for cabinet members?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, every day, hundreds and even thousands of information requests are made by journalists, academics and members of Parliament. It costs millions of dollars for the public service to find the related documents.

My office was informed on Tuesday evening. I was personally informed on Wednesday morning, and the minister handed me his resignation on Friday morning. I think the government did what it had to do. Once we were informed, we took action within hours.

Canadian Armed Forces

[Jim Hart, Reform, Okanagan—Similkameen—Merritt, BC]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Prime Minister.

For months now the Prime Minister has said that the former defence minister and General Boyle were operating the armed forces to the satisfaction of the government, no major crisis. Since then the minister and the chief of defence staff have resigned under a cloud and on the heels of many scandals. Yesterday the new defence minister admitted that the armed forces face a major crisis.

How can the Prime Minister explain the flip flop? Does the Prime Minister believe there is a major crisis in the armed forces or not?

[Douglas Young, Liberal, Minister of National Defence and Minister of Veterans Affairs]

Mr. Speaker, in the first place the hon. member alleges something the Prime Minister had said, that there is no crisis in the armed forces.

I know that the hon. member and every member of the House is aware of the Somalia inquiry, not just the situation with respect to the inquiry surrounding the activities of General Boyle. General Boyle was not in Somalia. General Boyle was not in the videos that the hon. member and others have seen. General Boyle was not a commanding officer in Somalia.

The hon. member I think does the House a service in raising the question as to whether or not there is a crisis in the armed forces. I said yesterday and I repeat today, the replacement of a defence minister and the resignation of the chief of defence staff will not correct serious problems in the Canadian Armed Forces that were reflected in the activities in Somalia.

I am sure the hon. member will join with me in ensuring that we encourage the commission to report as quickly as possible on what happened, why it happened and who was responsible for what happened in Somalia.

[Jim Hart, Reform, Okanagan—Similkameen—Merritt, BC]

Mr. Speaker, again Canadians are getting used to no answers in the House of Commons.

We have to remember that nothing honourable happened today. The person who resigned admitted to lying to the military police. They have admitted to lying and to breaking the spirit of the Access to Information Act. The government is responsible for those actions.

The Canadian public have listened month after month, day in and day out to this Prime Minister saying there was no problem at the Department of National Defence. Does the Prime Minister accept full responsibility for the mishandling of the appointment of the former chief of defence staff, General Jean Boyle?

[Douglas Young, Liberal, Minister of National Defence and Minister of Veterans Affairs]

Mr. Speaker, members of the House and Canadians have listened to questions being put with respect to the situation which surrounded General Boyle.

The hon. member refers to honour and that there was no honour in what was done today. I believe that anyone who has as much respect as the hon. member does for the armed forces would recognize what kind of a heart wrenching situation it had to be for an officer of the calibre and the age of General Boyle to have to come to the conclusion that it was in the best interests of the men and women of the Canadian Armed Forces and in the best interests of Canada for him to offer his resignation to the government.

The hon. member and I may agree on some things, but I have to disagree, and I believe that most fair thinking Canadians would disagree, when he suggests in any way that what General Boyle did today was not the honourable thing to do.

The Solicitor General

[François Langlois, Bloc, Bellechasse, QC]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Solicitor General. While on probation, inmate Marcel Blanchette was involved in the horrendous murder of Isabelle Bolduc, committed near Sherbrooke, last July. However, the probation officers in charge of his case had refused to punish him, even if they very well knew that he had broken the conditions of his parole.

Can the Solicitor General tell this House why this offender, who was not abiding by any of his parole conditions, could remain free instead of being sent back to prison?

[Nick Discepola, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to Solicitor General of Canada]

Mr. Speaker, the hon. member knows full well that the National Parole Board is a quasi-judicial body. We should get its recommendations any time now.

I cannot comment on the decision made by the National Parole Board, because it is a quasi-judicial body. However, I can tell the hon. member that the board is investigating and that we should receive its report in a few weeks.