Debates of Nov. 4th, 1996

Committees Of The House

[Marlene Catterall, Liberal, Ottawa West, ON]

Mr. Speaker, if the House gives its consent, I move that the 42nd report of the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs presented to the House earlier this day be concurred in.

(Motion agreed to.)

Petitions

[Peter Adams, Liberal, Peterborough, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I have a petition to present signed by a large number of senior citizens belonging to the United Senior Citizens of Ontario.

They point out that the safety of consumers and senior citizens in particular is at risk because brand name drug manufacturers are attempting to force generic drug manufacturers to market their equivalent products in a size, shape and colour different from the brand name medication.

Any action that affects the look of generic drugs could endanger the safety of patients through improper use of medicines. Therefore, the petitioners request that Parliament regulate the longstanding Canadian practice of marketing generic drugs in a size, shape and colour which is similar to that of brand name equivalents.

[Peter Adams, Liberal, Peterborough, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I have a petition from citizens who are concerned about the cost of reading materials.

They urge that all levels of government demonstrate support of education and literacy by eliminating sales tax on reading materials. They ask Parliament to zero rate books, magazines and newspapers under GST and that the provinces, including Ontario, consider harmonizing their sales taxes. Reading materials must be zero rated under provincial sales taxes as well as GST.

I am delighted that the government has moved on some of the areas which have been addressed by the petitioners.

[Jack Frazer, Reform, Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC]

Mr. Speaker, pursuant to Standing Order 36, it is my duty and honour to rise in the House to present a petition, duly certified by the clerk of petitions, on behalf of 107 individuals residing across Canada.

The petitioners call upon Parliament to honour and recognize their Canadian peacekeepers in the form of a Canadian peacekeeping medal.

[Gar Knutson, Liberal, Elgin—Norfolk, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I would like to present two petitions containing approximately 100 names.

The petitioners call upon Parliament to refrain from transferring the housing co-operative portfolio to the provincial governments and to preserve it for the citizens of Canada. They are further calling upon Parliament to review its reports regarding the cost effectiveness of our self-sufficient housing co-operatives managed by volunteers and to renew the commitment to support co-operative housing across the country.

[Gar Knutson, Liberal, Elgin—Norfolk, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I have a third petition which I wish to present to the House today.

The petitioners are asking Parliament to support Bill C-205 which would prohibit profits from crime.

[Alex Shepherd, Liberal, Durham, ON]

Mr. Speaker, it is my pleasure today to present two petitions.

In the first petition the petitioners request the House of Commons to enact legislation or amend existing legislation to define marriage as a voluntary union for life of one woman and one man to each other to the exclusion of all others.

[Alex Shepherd, Liberal, Durham, ON]

Mr. Speaker, the second petition is signed by 86 constituents and it involves literacy. I have a particular interest in this subject because my wife is very involved in this.

The petitioners state that applying the 7 per cent GST to reading materials is unfair and wrong. As supporters of literacy the petitioners believe that literacy and reading are critical to Canada's future and that removing the GST from reading materials will help to promote literacy in Canada.

The petitioners urge Parliament to remove the GST from books, magazines and newspapers. They urge the federal and provincial governments to ensure that reading materials are not taxed under the proposed harmonized sales tax. They ask the Prime Minister to carry out his party's repeated promise to remove federal sales tax from books, magazines and newspapers.

[Art Hanger, Reform, Calgary Northeast, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to present a petition bearing the names of 50 petitioners.

The petitioners call upon Parliament to enact two strikes legislation requiring anyone who has been convicted a second time of one or more sexual offences against a minor person as defined by the Criminal Code of Canada to be sentenced to imprisonment for life without eligibility for parole or early release. Also, for anyone awaiting trial on any such offences mentioned in the petition the petitioners pray that such a person be held in lawful custody without eligibility for bail or release of any form whatsoever until such time as the matter is fully concluded in a Canadian court of law.

[Paul Szabo, Liberal, Mississauga South, ON]

Mr. Speaker, pursuant to Standing Order 36, I have three petitions to present today.

The first petition comes from Abbotsford, B.C. The petitioners draw to the attention of the House that our police and firefighters place their lives at risk on a daily basis as they serve the emergency needs of all Canadians. They also state that in many cases the families are left without sufficient financial means to meet their obligations.

The petitioners therefore pray and call upon Parliament to establish a public safety officers compensation fund to receive gifts and bequests for the benefit of families of police officers and firefighters who are killed in the line of duty.

[Paul Szabo, Liberal, Mississauga South, ON]

Mr. Speaker, the second petition comes from Newmarket, Ontario.

The petitioners would like to draw to the attention of the House that managing the family home and caring for preschool children is an honourable profession which has not been recognized for its value to our society. The petitioners therefore pray and call upon Parliament to pursue initiatives to eliminate tax discrimination against families who choose to provide care in the home for preschool children, the chronically ill, the aged or the disabled.

[Paul Szabo, Liberal, Mississauga South, ON]

Mr. Speaker, the last petition I wish to present comes from Williams Lake, B.C.

The petitioners would like to draw to the attention of the House that the consumption of alcoholic beverages may cause health problems or impair one's ability and specifically that fetal alcohol syndrome or other alcohol related birth defects are 100 per cent preventable by avoiding alcohol consumption during pregnancy.

The petitioners therefore pray and call upon Parliament to enact legislation to require health warning labels to be placed on the containers of all alcoholic beverages to caution expectant mothers and others of the risks associated with alcohol consumption.

[Deborah Grey, Reform, Beaver River, AB]

Mr. Speaker, pursuant to Standing Order 36, I would like to present a petition containing several signatures from northern Alberta.

The petitioners state that the existing 7 per cent GST is an unjust taxation of reading materials and that education and literacy are critical to the development of our country and a regressive tax on reading handicaps that development.

The petitioners urge all levels of government to demonstrate support of education and literacy by eliminating sales tax on reading materials. They ask Parliament to zero rate books, magazines and newspapers under the GST as the provinces and Ottawa consider harmonizing. Unfortunately, they already have harmonized. The petitioners ask that reading materials be zero rated under the provincial sales taxes as well as GST.

I know, Mr. Speaker, when you were in opposition you spoke so eloquently and harshly about some of the drawbacks of the GST. Therefore, I know you not only appreciate this petition, I am sure you would agree with it.

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. Milliken)]

The hon. member for Beaver River knows that it is out of order for a member to say whether the member agrees or disagrees with a petition. I am sure

that in the kind comments she made she was not suggesting that either she or I would take a particular position in respect of the petition which she so ably presented.

[Deborah Grey, Reform, Beaver River, AB]

Not at all.

Questions On The Order Paper

[Stan Keyes, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of Transport]

Mr. Speaker, I must say you look smashing in your new attire. I ask that all questions be allowed to stand.

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. Milliken)]

Shall all questions stand?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

The House resumed consideration of Bill C-41 an act to amend the Divorce Act, the Family Orders and Agreements Enforcement Assistance Act, the Garnishment, Attachment and Pension Diversion Act and the Canada Shipping Act, as reported with amendments from the committee; and of Motion No. 13.

The Divorce Act

[Christiane Gagnon, Bloc, Québec, QC]

Mr. Speaker, are we considering the motion put forward by the Reform Party, Motion No. 13, from Group No. 3?

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. Milliken)]

Yes, the hon. member is right.

[Christiane Gagnon, Bloc, Québec, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I am very pleased to speak today on the motion put forward by my Reform colleagues. We cannot support this motion from the Reform member. Why? Because it provides for the Minister of Justice to lay before the House of Commons each proposed guideline and to refer it to a standing committee of the House.

If the amendment were only to apply to the federal guidelines, it might be interesting, since hon. members would then have an opportunity to take part in this review. However, we find the amendment unacceptable because it says "each proposed guideline", and that would include all provincial guidelines.

If we are to be consistent with the amendments we brought forward this morning, then we cannot support this motion. Pursuant to clause 1(3) of the bill, once the federal government has recognized the guidelines set by a province, these provincial guidelines are what is referred to as the applicable guidelines in the bill. The provincial guidelines replace the federal ones. We cannot let the guidelines set by Quebec, for instance, be reviewed and/or amended by a standing committee of the House of Commons, it is absolutely out of the question. This is why we are against this amendment.

Earlier this morning, we explained some of our demands concerning the changes to be made to Bill C-41. Why? Because the province of Quebec is currently developing guidelines that will take into account Quebec's particular characteristics. These guidelines will take into consideration the interests of the child and all the transfers to both parents and children.

The provinces should have an opportunity to explain the guidelines they developed based on the model most appropriate to their particular case, the province's social realities and the expectations of their residents, just like the guidelines soon to be approved in the province of Quebec.

We know how important it is that Quebec put its own guidelines forward and that they be adopted. With the discretionary power provided in Bill C-41, it is important that these guidelines be accepted by the federal government. We in the Bloc Quebec are not in favour of the discretionary power accorded the governor in council.

Moreover, a set of criteria is introduced in the bill to define the guidelines. Right before the criteria, we can see the little word "including".

We propose that this word "including" be deleted so that, when the guidelines are accepted by the federal government, we will not have to reopen the bill or to introduce another one. I think that Quebec wants more freedom to act. We know how complex the situation is in matters of divorce and separation.

Divorce falls within federal jurisdiction and separation within Quebec jurisdiction. As we all know, the guidelines have to be the same across the board. This is provided in the bill at the federal level but not at the provincial level. Thus, this motion by the Reform Party is not acceptable.

However, I want to tell you about some privileges Quebec wants to gain from the guidelines. When I say privileges, I mean respect. Not so much a privilege as a respect of Quebec's will.

It is clear in this bill that the federal government goes one way and Quebec another. This bill is very revealing. Quebec wants the guidelines to apply where children reside and not where the non-custodial parent resides. If the criteria for developing the

guidelines in one province favour the non-custodial parent, we know very well that the non-custodial parent will compare the benefits in various provinces.

That is why the child's well-being is paramount and the bill as introduced by the minister does not take into account first and foremost the needs of the child. We know that the guidelines put forward by the federal government take into account only the income tax to be paid. This is not the case for Quebec. Quebec takes a number of considerations into account, including family and social issues and the needs of the child.

I wish the government would rethink certain aspects of the bill. The government is asking the provinces to propose guidelines, but I think this bill does not show any respect for the work that the provinces will do when it says that the governor in council may, by order, designate a province for the purposes of the definition of "applicable guidelines". I do not see how the wishes of a province can be respected.

We know that there are many inconsistencies between the federal and the provincial guidelines. I wonder how it will be possible to satisfy both Quebec's and Ottawa's wishes.

I would also like to talk about another aspect of the bill.

There is no question of an agreement between spouses to change the amount or some other aspect of the guidelines. The needs and the welfare of the child must come first.

Therefore, we are against this motion brought forward by the Reform Party and we hope the government will follow up on the various motions we proposed to improve this bill in order to respect the provinces' wishes, because the provinces are closer to the people and their concerns and our motions take into account various legislative provisions that are already in force in Quebec.

If the Minister of Justice wanted this bill to serve the child's interest first and foremost, the Liberals would have to accept a few modifications proposed by the Bloc Quebecois, with every respect for the provinces and the federal legislation. We might have liked to have seen a single orientation concerning divorces and separations, with the same guidelines, but we know that the federal level has full jurisdiction over divorces.

I will close my speech here, with the hope that my colleagues will also be able to make this government listen to making some changes for the better to this bill, and that these changes will be more respectful of the will of the provinces, as Quebec is working on this too at the moment. Why then duplicate the analyses done in Quebec? It is clear to me, however, that the analyses done in Quebec are not the same as those done by the federal level. This is why we were elected. We were elected to speak for the specific nature of Quebec, to ensure that it is respected far more than it is today. Unfortunately, we must bring this to your attention, and we trust that this government will make an effort to understand the Quebec reality, because it is not all that obvious that it is.

We speak up about numerous bills, inviting the government to respect the wishes of Quebec, but the message falls on deaf ears every time.

[Gordon Kirkby, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada]

Mr. Speaker, I will respond very briefly to the motion put forward by the Reform Party.

It is interesting to note the consistent theme that runs through the amendments put forward by the Reform Party. First, the motions seek to render ineffective the guidelines that have been put forward for a very distinct and proper purpose, that is, to provide consistency to maintenance awards for children, to provide that the custodial spouse and the children will receive adequate support and the support awards will be consistent within provinces and across the country.

In addition to that theme, hearkening back to a process that is 50 years old, we also see what seems to be another consistent thread. The motions put forward would have the effect of delaying the implementation of the bill. Quite frankly if the suggestion put forward in Motion No. 13 was accepted by the federal government, the process of implementation would be delayed.

Justice delayed is justice denied. The government will do everything in its power to ensure that the guidelines and legislation will be able to go ahead on March 1, 1997.

Members of the Bloc are suggesting that somehow this deals with provincial authority in an inappropriate fashion. Once again I remind the House of my answer to similar statements made by the Bloc Quebecois.

First, this is an area of sole federal jurisdiction. Second, the guidelines which have been put in place are different from province to province, respecting and reflecting the various differences that exist within the provinces. Third, provisions within the bill state that where provincial guidelines are found to be acceptable, they would be allowed to function as the guidelines for the purposes of this bill.

The government is opposed to this motion because it would delay the implementation of the bill. It would like to see the system move ahead so that greater consistency, predictability and the enforceability of awards can all be improved as we work on a system that has been functioning for 50 years and is desperately in need of modernization and update.

[Michel Bellehumeur, Bloc, Berthier—Montcalm, QC]

Mr. Speaker, since this morning we have been discussing Bill C-41, and the Bloc Quebecois, as a party from Quebec, naturally reflects the demands of Quebec, but as the official opposition, it also reflects the concerns of certain provinces and groups in English Canada,

and the government seems to be turning a deaf ear or does not seem to understand the demands we are making.

It is all very clear, however. We made a series of proposals, a series of motions this morning to amend the government's position on the very important concept of residence, in other words, that this should mean the child's place of residence to prevent any ambiguity in interpreting the guidelines.

We tabled motions on the federal government's discretionary powers to adopt or not to adopt the guidelines of a province. Here again, the government turned a deaf ear.

We presented a motion on vested rights, to tell the government that if Quebec, for instance, establishes guidelines according to the present rules of the game, we would not want a subsequent Conservative, Reform Party or even Liberal government, under another prime minister, to be able to change these guidelines at will. We presented a motion for vested rights, and here again, the government seems to turn a deaf ear.

We also presented a motion to prevent the application of certain national standards. We definitely want the guidelines presented by Quebec to apply in cases of divorce and separation.

I heard the parliamentary secretary say in reply to the Bloc Quebecois that the Divorce Act was a federal statute. We do not challenge that fact. We know that the Divorce Act is a federal statute. We know that according to the Constitution, the federal government has jurisdiction over the Divorce Act. What we are saying is that this is unacceptable.

In Quebec, people get married under the laws of Quebec. They have children under the laws of Quebec. The children are registered with the registrar for births, deaths and marriages under the laws of Quebec. In a family, people make purchases, buy a house and cars. The family property comes under Quebec's jurisdiction. If things do not work out, people separate under the laws of Quebec. But divorce is a federal matter.

That is what is wrong and why everything is so complicated. On the weekend we saw that Quebec wanted to adopt a family policy. There is a consensus on this in Quebec. That was clear, and I think that my friends opposite-not my friends, because they are not really my friends-I am sure that hon. members opposite saw there was a consensus in Quebec on family policy this past weekend.

But they are turning a deaf ear to it. To translate this consensus into concrete action, they could give a helping hand and start changing some things. But no. We have seen, through justice parliamentary secretary for justice, that the government seems adamant in its refusal to consider any amendment, any proposal from the official opposition, the Bloc Quebecois, in keeping with the general consensus and the will at large to see things change; but the government in Ottawa has decided in its ivory tower, in a characteristically paternalistic fashion, as one of my colleagues said, not to budge.

I am happy, however, that the Reform Party is not in power because the motion it presented says a lot on the way English Canada sees things and on its intentions. Somehow, the Reform Party has a lot in common with the way the Liberals think and act.

With regard to Motion No. 13 presented by the Reform Party, which appears innocuous, ordinary enough, one might think that, after all, Reform has good intentions, it wants the federal government to support it, to look at it, it wants the elected representatives to have a look at the guidelines.

The Reform Party's motion asks that Bill C-41, in clause 11, be amended by adding the following:

"26.2(1) The Minister of Justice shall have each proposed guideline laid before the House of Commons.

(2) Each proposed guideline that is laid before the House of Commons shall, on the day it is laid, be referred by that House to an appropriate committee of that House, as determined by the rules of that House, and that committee shall report its findings to that House.

(3) A proposed guideline that has been laid pursuant to subsection (1) may be established on the expiration of thirty sitting days after it was laid.

(4) For the purpose of this section, "sitting day" means a day on which the House of Commons sits."

If one looks at this amendment, it does not seem that bad. But what is really hiding behind it? What is hiding is English Canada's desire to centralize even further an issue Quebec believes should be decentralized, to the extent that it should be an area of exclusive jurisdiction for Quebec.

Sometimes the Liberals and the Reform Party question the necessity of having Bloc Quebecois members in this House. I think we have another opportunity to show how important it is for Quebec to have Bloc Quebecois members in this House, to prevent the Reform Party from proposing very centralizing measures and the government from proposing centralizing bills.

This motion shows the true philosophy of English Canada, which wants to centralize everything in Ottawa.

What does that mean in practice? It means that, if the motion is carries without amendment, all guidelines adopted by Quebec will have to be submitted to the justice minister who will, in turn, submit them to the Standing Committee on Justice and Legal Affairs for further study.

We all know that Quebec intends to implement such guidelines. We even have some information concerning those guidelines. The justice minister would simply submit those guidelines to the committee for its consideration. For example, if Quebec considers that it is important for the guidelines to be based on the real cost of

a child's needs, we, in Quebec, will find it crucial that the guidelines be determined accordingly. However, if we submit them to the committee, it could decide that, at the federal level, this is not important and that Quebec will have to change its guidelines so that they are based in part on a legal obligation to maintain the standard of living. Quebec would not have a say in this.

This is what the Reform Party motion could mean for Quebec. There are a series of guidelines which Quebec examined and, if the motion is carried, these could be reviewed by the Standing Committee on Justice and Legal Affairs. You will surely understand that it would be unacceptable for the federal government to dictate the rules and determine the procedures in an area like family policy which is so important for the future of Quebec.

I must say that, when I speak about family and family policy, unfortunately, this also includes separation and divorce. After a divorce, the children are still there and they must be supervised and protected, because they are the ones who are the most vulnerable in a separation. Our role, as members of Parliament here, is to pass legislation that would best protect these children.

Bill C-41 that the government proposes to us is, as a whole, a step forward, but there are several little points that are disturbing, that are not in line with Quebec's claims, among others, of course, the points that I mentioned at the very beginning of my speech concerning residence, at the government's discretion.

More specifically, Quebec's position, the position defended by the Bloc Quebecois, goes against Motion No. 13 proposed by the Reform Party. You will understand that we will vote against this motion.

In concluding, I would also like to say that, while we seem to challenge or argue several of the points in Bill C-41, as a whole, this bill seems favourable to us. That must be kept in mind. As a whole, Bill C-41 was asked for repeatedly by the official opposition. We wanted a legislative measure, but not one with these points that are not favourable to Quebec. I will have the opportunity to come back to Bill C-41, since there are other motions, because I have so many things to say about this bill.

[Gilbert Fillion, Bloc, Chicoutimi, QC]

First of all, I would like to congratulate you, Mr. Speaker, on your appointment, since this is the first opportunity I have had to speak since then. I had the pleasure of sitting with you on the joint committee on regulation, where I appreciated your contribution to each of the debates we had in the other place.

Today, we are once again inundated, literally inundated with motions put forward by the Reform Party that do little if anything to improve the bill before us.

The latest proposal would require the Minister of Justice to table every proposed guideline before this House for referral to a standing committee of the House of Commons.

We in the Bloc Quebecois have a problem living with the proposed amendment, and particularly with the word "each". This would have the effect of including provincial guidelines. Basically, what this amendment tells us is that provincial guidelines recognized by the federal government will be those referred to by the term guideline in the legislation.

All this is is a switch between provincial and federal guidelines. And that is unacceptable to us in the Bloc Quebecois.

In fact, there is consensus around this issue in Quebec. Our system, the one currently used in Quebec, works just fine. The measures approved and adopted last year for the collection of out of province support have pleased almost everyone.

These guidelines met the needs of Quebecers. They also met the needs of children. To the extent possible, these guidelines have done the most to ensure the well-being of children, although this is an area where there is always room for improvement. Not every case is the same. Almost all decisions have to be made on a case-by-case basis.

The amendment put forward by the Reform Party does not improve the bill in any way. It still gives the federal government the right to replace the whole Quebec system with its own. In fact, clause 1(4) provides that the governor in council may, by order, designate a province for the purposes of the definition "applicable guidelines". That is interference.

The verb "may" is used. Let us consider its meaning. Any guidelines issued by a province must be approved by the federal government to become applicable. This is another example of centralization, of paternalism. They are not withdrawing but centralizing even further. The federal government imposes its vision on the provinces, although this vision is not always in line with reality.

Which government is better able to meet these needs? Federal rejection of the guidelines established by a province could give rise to some absurd situations. The most striking example is that of a separation handled according to provincial guidelines, while the divorce would have to follow federal guidelines. This could make a huge difference in the ruling, in the amount of support for each child.

The Quebec legislation on separation is more generous than the federal law on divorce. This clause must disappear. Such iniquities are unacceptable. The discretionary power given by the verb "may" must be taken away from the federal government.

This is what gives the amendment proposed by my colleague from Québec its whole meaning. This amendment is aimed at limiting the list of criteria the provinces must comply with to have their guidelines recognized by the federal government as superseding its own.

I ask government members to reflect on the amendment proposed by the Bloc Quebecois, so that the provinces' guidelines are approved by this government. In fact, the amendment provides that, once a province has complied with federal criteria, its own guidelines will automatically replace those of the federal government. This would prevent strange situations where children, whom the act is supposed to protect, would suffer from a measure that would have become unfair.

I will conclude by pointing out that selecting the payer's address as the place of residence, instead of the child's domicile, for support purposes, creates an enormous problem. Those who avoid their responsibilities in this regard often do so simply by virtue of the fact that the payer's place of residence was chosen, instead of the child's domicile.

We have a lot before us. The Bloc Quebecois tabled its amendments. I ask members opposite to carefully review each of the proposed amendments, not in our interests, but in the interests of our children.