Debates of Nov. 4th, 1996

The Lieutenant Governor Of Quebec

[Michel Gauthier, Bloc, Roberval, QC]

She does not even know the difference.

[Gilles Duceppe, Bloc, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

Had Jean-Louis Roux done the same thing, we would not be raising this matter in the House today. André Laurendeau's confession, his admission that he made a mistake does him credit. But Jean-Louis Roux is still a victim of the punch to his jaw that caused his temporary, 50-year amnesia. That makes all the difference.

I ask the Deputy Prime Minister if the government intends to initiate proceedings under section 59 of the Canadian Constitution to remove the Lieutenant Governor of Quebec for racist behaviour incompatible with his duties?

[Sheila Copps, Liberal, Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of Canadian Heritage]

Mr. Speaker, if the Lieutenant Governor took part in a public demonstration in 1942, it was surely no secret.

National Revenue

[Jim Silye, Reform, Calgary Centre, AB]

Mr. Speaker, it has come to my attention that a couple of weeks ago somebody in Mississauga, Ontario walked into a government surplus store and purchased a filing cabinet. Lo and behold when the individual opened the filing cabinet six or seven files of individual Canadian taxpayers that should never have been there were found. The filing cabinet should have been looked at before it got out. This is scary stuff. Who is responsible for this incompetence?

[Paul Martin, Liberal, Minister of Finance]

Mr. Speaker, the Department of National Revenue takes very seriously its responsibility to protect the confidentiality of taxpayer information. Departmental security officials are in the process of investigating how these documents were made available. The department has a very clear cut procedure to deal with these kinds of things. There may have been a defect but I can assure the House that the department is on the issue.

[Jim Silye, Reform, Calgary Centre, AB]

On the file, right Mr. Speaker?

The issue is accountability and competence as the finance minister has mentioned. We even have a hard time finding out the secret ethics guidelines from the government that would be helping cabinet ministers and would be telling the Canadian public how they have to deal with cabinet ministers. The Prime Minister will not even make them available. He keeps them a secret.

These files could have ended up in the hands of some unscrupulous individuals. In this case they did not. Those files were sent to me. They are in a sealed envelope and I will send them to Revenue Canada.

When the finance minister finds out what did happen, will he inform the House what steps were taken to remedy the situation and what kind of discipline was meted out? The Liberals brag about efficiency and effectiveness. Will they report back to us?

[Paul Martin, Liberal, Minister of Finance]

Mr. Speaker, as I mentioned, the departmental security officials will be conducting the investigation as soon as the documents are made available. We look forward to receiving them from the hon. member.

The department has in place very clear procedures relating to the security of information and to the disposal of assets. The departmental investigation will determine how the incident arose and whether or not changes to procedures and practices will be required. A report will be made to the House.

Zaire

[Madeleine Dalphond-Guiral, Bloc, Laval Centre, QC]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Foreign Affairs.

As eastern Zaire faces an unprecedented human disaster, there are rumours of Tutsi rebels having announced today a three-week unilateral ceasefire to allow those refugees who wish to flee to Rwanda to do so. However, emergency humanitarian relief still cannot get through. A dramatic plea has been made for the creation of humanitarian corridors to prevent thousands if not hundreds of thousands of persons from being killed.

Could the minister give us an update on the situation in eastern Zaire, where there are more than one million civilians affected by the fighting, and on the steps taken so far to establish corridors so that humanitarian relief can reach the refugees?

[Lloyd Axworthy, Liberal, Minister of Foreign Affairs]

Mr. Speaker, first of all, I would like to say that the Government of Canada strongly supports ambassador Chrétien's efforts to find a solution and make recommendations to bring about reconciliation in the African great lakes region.

Second, we have indicated that, through our colleague, the Minister of State responsible for Africa, we are considering ways of providing assistance to African groups proposing that a humanitarian corridor be established in Africa. Also, my colleague, the Minister of International Co-operation, is considering providing

humanitarian aid, in response to calls from groups and other organizations.

Generally speaking, we have responded by making an active effort on behalf of Canadians, and I hope that the diplomatic efforts will lead to a successful ceasefire.

[Madeleine Dalphond-Guiral, Bloc, Laval Centre, QC]

Mr. Speaker, in the context of the regional summit scheduled for tomorrow in Nairobi, strong pressure is being brought to bear on South Africa to stop selling weapons to Rwanda.

On the basis of the special ties that Canada maintains with South Africa, will the minister undertake to join in asking South Africa to freeze all arms shipments to Rwanda?

[Lloyd Axworthy, Liberal, Minister of Foreign Affairs]

Mr. Speaker, we have expressed our deep concern about the sale of arms, not just by South Africa but by many western countries that are also engaged in the sale of arms in that region. It is something that I think has contributed substantially to the problem and we will follow through with our efforts.

We are also undertaking very strong efforts with the government of Rwanda to begin to more actively prosecute the war criminal trials. Until that particular problem is met, the return of the refugees from Zaire becomes increasingly difficult. A number of efforts have to take place.

I give the House full assurance that we are fully engaged in this file. The secretary of state has just returned from Africa. We will continue to use all our efforts to try to find some solution and particularly to help the approximately one million people who are now being faced with this enormous disruption to their lives.

As Canadians we want to do the best we possibly can for that region.

The Volunteer Sector

[Robert Bertrand, Liberal, Pontiac—Gatineau—Labelle, QC]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister for International Co-operation and Minister responsible for Francophonie.

Given the previous commitments made by the government, and in the context of budget cuts, what is the Canadian government doing to strengthen links with the volunteer sector?

[Don Boudria, Liberal, Minister for International Co-operation and Minister responsible for Francophonie]

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to inform the hon. member and the House that strengthening links with the volunteer sector is a major component of the implementation of our government's priorities.

Tomorrow and Wednesday, I intend to meet, right here in the national capital region, with some 300 officials representing non-governmental organizations, professional associations and other groups, at their annual meeting with the Canadian International Development Agency.

I take this opportunity to congratulate all NGOs working directly or indirectly with CIDA, in Africa and in other parts of the world. I should point out that current events in Zaire and elsewhere confirm the importance of co-operating with such organizations.

Justice

[Jay Hill, Reform, Prince George—Peace River, BC]

Mr. Speaker, on September 3, the conditional sentencing provisions of the government's legislation went into effect. The very next day an Ontario judge gave a conditional sentence to a man who had uttered death threats against his estranged spouse. She lives in fear and he walks.

In October an Alberta man convicted of pointing a gun at his wife, and firing, it also got a conditional sentence. His sentence: no drugs or firearms and he is supposed to attend treatment programs.

Bearing in mind that someone gets a minimum of four years for holding up a corner store with a toy gun, can the Minister of Justice explain to the victims of domestic violence why men who threaten their wives with real guns walk away with conditional sentences?

[Allan Rock, Liberal, Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada]

Mr. Speaker, first of all, the hon. member is not right about using a toy gun to hold up a store. That does not attract four years. That attracts one year under section 85.

More to the point, the conditional sentence is part of Bill C-41. It was made part of the Criminal Code by the House of Commons last year because it provides the courts, in appropriate cases, with an alternative to incarceration where sentences are two years less a day or less.

In those instances it is recognized that sometimes merely putting somebody in jail and locking the door is not necessarily the best approach. Maybe there are other steps which can be taken that are less costly and more effective in protecting the victim and in ensuring that the person does not commit another crime.

We have provided, through the conditional sentence, another tool for the courts to use in determining the appropriate sentence. It is then up to the courts to decide whether, on the facts of any

particular case, the conditional sentence is the appropriate disposition. We have done the right thing.

[Jay Hill, Reform, Prince George—Peace River, BC]

Mr. Speaker, at one time in Canada someone convicted of rape was subject to very severe penalties. Now with conditional sentencing their life does not seem to change much.

A man in B.C. was just convicted of sexual assault. What was his punishment? He is on conditional release, scot free.

These lenient decisions in three different provinces have set dangerous precedents. Section 742 states that a conditional sentence is not an option when there is a danger to the community. Are women not part of the community?

Will the minister responsible for the legislation clarify this for women and, more important, for judges? He talks about a tool for the courts. He talks about appropriate cases. Will he clarify whether a conditional sentence is appropriate for rape?

[Allan Rock, Liberal, Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada]

Mr. Speaker, 10 years ago Professor Anthony Doob of the University of Toronto did a study. He showed newspaper reports of sentences, in particular of criminal cases, to members of the public and asked them if they felt the sentences were strong enough. The vast majority felt they were not.

He took the same people, the same cases, and provided all the information about the cases, all the facts involving the offender and the offences. After they had read all the facts a clear majority thought the sentences were too harsh.

The reality is that when the court looks at the offender and the offence and takes all the circumstances into account, the court does a pretty fair job of determining appropriate punishment.

Obviously, the business of this member is not to worry about the facts or the reality but to use fearmongering to make his squalid point. That is very regrettable and it is bad public policy.

The Tobacco Industry

[Antoine Dubé, Bloc, Lévis, QC]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Canadian Heritage.

This morning, some 20 organizers of major cultural and sporting events sent a cry for help. The survival of their events will be in jeopardy if the government passes a bill prohibiting sponsoring by tobacco companies.

Will the minister guarantee that her government will not take any measures that would jeopardize major cultural and sporting events such as the Montreal jazz festival, the Just for Laughs festival, or the international film festival in Toronto or in Vancouver?

[Sheila Copps, Liberal, Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of Canadian Heritage]

Mr. Speaker, the member should wait a few days and he will be apprised then of the package the minister is putting forward.

[Antoine Dubé, Bloc, Lévis, QC]

Mr. Speaker, since the Prime Minister himself recognized, in a letter to the Du Maurier concert listeners, the importance of the funding provided by tobacco companies to artistic activities, will the heritage minister agree, like the Prime Minister, that the investment of $60 million made by these companies is indispensable to the staging of several major cultural and sporting events?

[Joe Volpe, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of Health]

Mr. Speaker, the member opposite ignores the singular intent of the legislation that is being prepared by the department. The concern always has to be the health and the protection of Canadians. It is not going to be dictated by considerations of sponsorship, nor is it going to be dictated by advertising considerations.

The member will know there is a blueprint document out and that blueprint document solicited consultations everywhere. Over 2,300 submissions were presented to us as a result. Legislation will follow on the basis of what has already been outlined for the public's consideration.

Justice

[Jack Ramsay, Reform, Crowfoot, AB]

Mr. Speaker, the example provided by my colleague from Prince George-Peace River of alternative measures being used in cases of domestic assault demonstrates the absolute hypocrisy of our justice system.

Did the justice minister intend that alternative measures be used in cases of serious personal injury as in the cases cited by my colleague? Did he intend for men who rape and threaten their spouses to walk free by allowing them access to alternative measures?

[Allan Rock, Liberal, Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada]

Mr. Speaker, part of the problem is illustrated by the hon. member's question. We are not discussing alternative measures. We are discussing, according to the former question, conditional sentences. They are very different.

Alternative measures occur when a province decides to avail itself of those provisions in the code that allow it to take people out of the criminal law stream before they are dealt with by the courts.

That is only for non-violent crimes where the crown attorney agrees it is in the public interest to do so and where the person in question has acknowledged responsibility. That is, on the one hand, dealing with non-violent matters.

Conditional sentences, on the other hand, occur after the charge and after the trial and where the court decides that a sentence of two years less a day or less is appropriate. Then people are permitted to serve their jail term in the community so to speak, subject to strict conditions. If they do not comply with them, they are reincarcerated.

If the hon. member would take that definition of the terms and put his question, perhaps I could understand and respond to it.

[Jack Ramsay, Reform, Crowfoot, AB]

Mr. Speaker, it was displayed very clearly in debates on Bill C-41 that alternative measures are offered to violent offenders.

Would the Minister of Justice plug that loophole in Bill C-41 by amending it and denying violent offenders access to alternative measures? Will he, or will he not?

[Allan Rock, Liberal, Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada]

Mr. Speaker, Bill C-41 presented alternative measures as an option for provinces and is provided clearly on the basis that it is only to be used where it is consistent with public safety or it has the agreement of the crown attorney and where the offender acknowledges responsibility for the offence.

I have written to the provincial attorneys general and asked them for their assurances that these would not be used specifically for domestic violence and other acts of violence, but only for appropriate cases where violence is not involved.

That is exactly what these measures were intended to achieve.