Debates of Nov. 4th, 1996

Lieutenant-Governor Of Quebec

[Sheila Copps, Liberal, Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of Canadian Heritage]

Mr. Speaker, I think that when we see who the lieutenant-governor is, it behooves us to point out what he has done in his life.

This afternoon, during a statement he made in response to the misrepresentations made by a number of people, which now includes the Leader of the Opposition, and I quote him, he never denied taking part in the demonstration, but said that during that same period he did take part in an anti-conscription demonstration that ended "with a parade during which demonstrators, whom I was not among, broke windows" in Mr. Roux's words.

What was said about his participation in anti-conscription activities could in fact have been said about all Quebecers at the time. It is also true that the remarks reported in the article in L'Actualité are sufficiently troubling that the lieutenant-governor himself issued a release today stating the facts.

I think that what is important is to judge the lieutenant-governor on his political career, during the 50 years of which he has opposed

fascism and anti-democratic forces. He must be judged today on what he has accomplished over the last half century.

[Pierrette Venne, Bloc, Saint-Hubert, QC]

Mr. Speaker, do not the Deputy Prime Minister's responses, in her attempt to whitewash the behaviour of Jean-Louis Roux-highly reprehensible behaviour for a man in a public position-make her an accomplice of Liberal buddies Pierre Elliott Trudeau, Jacques Hébert and Gérard Pelletier, in trying to make the actions of their friend Jean-Louis Roux seem unimportant?

[Sheila Copps, Liberal, Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of Canadian Heritage]

Mr. Speaker, we are not here to whitewash any facts. Nor are we here to make false statements like the ones made by the Leader of the Opposition.

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh.

[Sheila Copps, Liberal, Hamilton East, ON]

It is certain that the Lieutenant Governor took part in demonstrations against conscription when he was young, and it is also certain that he was not involved in any vandalism.

What we need to do now is to reflect on Jean-Louis Roux' half century-long career in which he has always fought, and continues to fight, against fascism, regardless of its form.

[Pierrette Venne, Bloc, Saint-Hubert, QC]

Mr. Speaker, to take a different tack, was the Prime Minister aware of these facts when he appointed Jean-Louis Roux? Was his background included in the RCMP security check, which the Prime Minister surely ordered done, and which he surely read, before appointing Jean-Louis Roux lieutenant-governor?

[Sheila Copps, Liberal, Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of Canadian Heritage]

Mr. Speaker, I wish to consolidate the facts.

I would like to see the Leader of the Opposition, instead of playing politics, accept the fact that the claims he has just made in this House are false.

Mr. Jean-Louis Roux was never involved in vandalism. Yes, he did take part in demonstrations against conscription, but these were supported by the majority of Quebecers during the 1940s. He never took part in any vandalism, however, and when the Leader of the Opposition makes comments like this in the House, he ought to apologize.

Ethics

[Deborah Grey, Reform, Beaver River, AB]

Mr. Speaker, last week the youth minister said that her accounting was not a problem because she paid the money back within days and she actually had a cheque stapled to the form. According to the ethics counsellor,

the youth minister waited up to four months to pay these bills. There is a discrepancy here. It must be really nice. I will bet the Canadian taxpayers did not know they were bankrolling the Government of Canada's "don't pay a cent event".

Can the Deputy Prime Minister explain why the youth minister was allowed up to four months to pay back money owed to the taxpayers of Canada?

[Sheila Copps, Liberal, Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of Canadian Heritage]

Mr. Speaker, I think these questions were answered by the Prime Minister, by the minister herself and by the President of the Treasury Board. I believe only three days ago the acting leader of the third party accepted her explanation.

[Deborah Grey, Reform, Beaver River, AB]

Mr. Speaker, in fact what we said three or four days ago when those documents were tabled is that we would have a look at them and there seem to be some pretty serious discrepancies. It would be easy just to say nice try and to pass everything off as okay now, but if a public servant did this, they would be out on their ear just as simple as that.

Instead of going to a bank teller, the youth minister turned to the taxpayers for her government credit card bills. I am sure thousands of Canadians would love to have the option of an interest free loan from the Government of Canada just to make ends meet.

Why the double standard? Why is it that the youth minister and Bombardier get interest free loans while every other taxpayer has to pay the going rate?

[Sheila Copps, Liberal, Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of Canadian Heritage]

Mr. Speaker, I believe the Secretary of State for Youth answered the questions in the House and furnished all the documentation. She put forth the proof through the Speaker to the deputy leader of the third party. I believe last Thursday the member for Beaver River said that she would take the hon. member at her word.

[Deborah Grey, Reform, Beaver River, AB]

Mr. Speaker, in fact I think my exact words were that she admitted her mistake and I appreciated the fact that she had done that. Then she said further to that that she had not really made a mistake and everything was okay and the Prime Minister agreed. We have uncovered documents through access to information that are quite clearly contradictory to what she tabled. The bottom line is far deeper than that.

The ethics guidelines that are supposed to be in place for all the cabinet ministers should be made completely public and documented for the Canadian public to see. The government promised integrity in action but all we see is integrity in hiding. The Prime Minister is fond of saying that the buck stops with him. What he does not seem to understand is that the buck stays with the Canadian public. They are the taxpayers.

I ask the Deputy Prime Minister: Why does the Prime Minister stubbornly refuse to let the taxpayers see these phantom guidelines for the ministers when in fact they are their ministers and it is their money?

[Sheila Copps, Liberal, Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of Canadian Heritage]

Mr. Speaker, the Prime Minister has always said that the person who is accountable for the integrity of his ministers is the Prime Minister himself. The Prime Minister is the person who names the ministers. He is also capable of removing the ministers.

If we were to ask the Canadian people whose integrity they have confidence in right now, the Prime Minister or the third party, I think the exodus of members from the third party speaks for itself.

Lieutenant-Governor Of Quebec

[Michel Gauthier, Bloc, Roberval, QC]

Mr. Speaker, the Deputy Prime Minister, answering on behalf of the Prime Minister and the government, said earlier that the Leader of the Opposition should apologize to the House because he referred to statements made by the lieutenant-governor of Quebec and these statements led us to question the government.

This is my question for the Deputy Prime Minister. She is trying to downplay the participation of the lieutenant-governor in an anti-Semitic march which took place in the streets of Montreal at a time when the Jews were experiencing the worse genocide in history, but does she think the lieutenant-governor was well advised to walk around with a swastika on his lab coat at the university's medical school?

[Sheila Copps, Liberal, Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of Canadian Heritage]

Mr. Speaker, this gesture by the lieutenant-governor as a young man was a reflection of what other people were doing. His participation in an anti-conscription demonstration was a democratic act that was supported by most Quebecers.

That being said, if we want to judge the actions of Jean-Louis Roux, a man who for almost half a century of his life has fought for truth and democracy, and against fascism, we should judge the person he has become 50 years later.

[Michel Gauthier, Bloc, Roberval, QC]

Mr. Speaker, are we to conclude from what the Deputy Prime Minister said that she condones the fact that for 50 years, although others apologized for such actions, Jean-Louis Roux kept the fact that he wore a swastika and was anti-Semitic in his behaviour a secret?

Are we to conclude that the Deputy Prime Minister feels it is perfectly all right to have kept quiet about all this for 50 years and then let it filter out after his appointment as lieutenant-governor, to ward off any negative fallout, according to the journalist for L'Actualité and to what all Quebecers are thinking?

[Sheila Copps, Liberal, Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of Canadian Heritage]

Mr. Speaker, if the lieutenant-governor took part in a public demonstration when he was a student, it was certainly not a secret.

Ethics

[Ken Epp, Reform, Elk Island, AB]

Mr. Speaker, the Prime Minister has promised Canadians more honest and open government and better accountability.

In seeking the forgiveness of the House and Canadians, the Secretary of State for Training and Youth tabled documents last Thursday that she said would support her words but the numbers do not add up. I have gone over 10 credit card statements that we were able to obtain and have found over $9,700 in the six months covered that has been whited out ostensibly because these were personal.

Will the Prime Minister direct her to table the full documents, all expense forms, credit card statements and cheques showing clearly all the dates, all the amounts charged and repaid?

[Sheila Copps, Liberal, Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of Canadian Heritage]

Mr. Speaker, the deposition of the Secretary of State for Youth and Training last week answered all these questions.

[Ken Epp, Reform, Elk Island, AB]

Mr. Speaker, if the questions had been answered would I be standing here again?

The object here is that the truth be demonstrated. If everything has been done as the Prime Minister and the President of the Treasury Board claim, full disclosure will answer the unanswered questions.

Will the Prime Minister direct her to table the full and unaltered expense forms, credit card statements, processed cheques and any other documentation that will support her words with no missing documents and no whiteout?

[Sheila Copps, Liberal, Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of Canadian Heritage]

Mr. Speaker, the Secretary of State for Youth and Training has voluntarily furnished everything that has been asked for here in the House.

I would refer to a statement made by the member for Beaver River last Thursday when she came into the House upon the presentation of the statement by the hon. member. She said: "She admitted today in the House of Commons that it was a mistake and we appreciate that".

The member involved has admitted that she made a mistake. She has tabled all the documents. It has not cost the taxpayers of Canada a penny. If the member is truly serious about pursuing this issue, maybe she should ask her leader to be as forthcoming about his expenses in Hawaii and the other trips that he has taken at the taxpayers' expense.

The Lieutenant Governor Of Quebec

[Gilles Duceppe, Bloc, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

Mr. Speaker, to get back to the article in which Jean-Louis Roux recalls taking part in a demonstration against conscription on his way to ransack the Gazette 's offices on St. Catherine Street, the windows of all the stores with foreign-sounding names-especially Hebrew names-were shattered. During the confrontation, he was hit so hard in the mouth that his jaw was fractured and he suffered from temporary amnesia, which, I should add, lasted 50 years.

I ask the Deputy Prime Minister if Jean-Louis Roux informed the Prime Minister of his involvement in these events, of his wearing a disguise and sporting a swastika at the University of Montreal laboratories, before accepting his appointment as Lieutenant Governor?

[Sheila Copps, Liberal, Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of Canadian Heritage]

Mr. Speaker, many people do things in their youth they regret later. For example, the new member for Laurier-Sainte-Marie used to belong to the Marxist-Leninist Workers' Communist Party.

When asked, he said that it had lain heavy on his conscience for several years, that he wore it like a wound. Certainly, when people are young, they do things they may regret later. What is important today is to think about Jean-Louis Roux's 50 years of public work against fascism.

Since no one is holding what the hon. member for Laurier-Sainte-Marie did in his youth against him, I hope he will have the same consideration for the lieutenant governor.

[Gilles Duceppe, Bloc, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

Mr. Speaker, there is a big difference. I admitted it both before and after I was elected; I admitted making a mistake but the people elected me anyway. I did not hide things to take advantage of an appointment. That makes all the difference.

[One hon. member]

There is also a difference between being a Communist and being a Nazi.