Debates of Nov. 5th, 1996

Jean-Louis Roux

[Michel Gauthier, Bloc, Leader of the Opposition]

Mr. Speaker, the Prime Minister has only himself to be annoyed with. He is the one responsible for the present mess.

He is responsible for the mess and, like it or not, he will still have to find answers to a number of questions to which the public wants answers.

If the Prime Minister is so informed about the career of Jean-Louis Roux, how can it be that his knowledge does not go back further than 1949? It is what happened prior to that which has shocked all the people of Quebec.

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, Mr. Roux has always spoken of that time in lectures and radio or television discussions. He has taken part in public discussions on radio and television explaining how Quebec society has evolved from the thirties to the present.

He himself stated on one such program that he had made the mistake of putting a swastika on his lab coat during his student days, at the age of 19, and that he regretted this. He has stated publicly that he regretted this enormously. He has also said it to me personally. This was public, and not a question of a criminal act.

When we investigate people to whom we are offering positions, we do not go looking into the darkest recesses of their personal lives, we look at their record of honour as a citizen, and whether they have a criminal record. In my opinion, Jean-Louis Roux had an impeccable record, except that he had committed one error at the age of 19 years while at the Université de Montréal.

[Michel Gauthier, Bloc, Leader of the Opposition]

Mr. Speaker, the Prime Minister ought to have been more careful, since his responsibilities require it, knowing what Jean-Louis Roux is capable of saying. The Prime Minister will recall the odious comparison he made during the last referendum. The Prime Minister ought to have been more careful, more mistrustful.

How can the Prime Minister justify the fact that his sole concern before appointing Jean-Louis Roux as lieutenant-governor of Quebec was the services he had rendered to the Liberal Party of Canada, rather than the irreproachable profile he ought to have provided?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, when I invited Jean-Louis Roux to become a Senator, I did not even know he was a Liberal. Even when I invited him to the Senate, I said to him: "I do not know if you are a member of my party. If you want to sit-"

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh!

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Saint-Maurice, QC]

I offered him a seat as an independent. And, if we need to go poking into everyone's lives, could the Leader of the Opposition tell me why people like Camille Laurin and Denis Lazure were in Mr. Lévesque's cabinet, when they had defended Count Jacques de Bernonville, the right hand man to Klaus Barbie in Europe?

[Gilles Duceppe, Bloc, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

Mr. Speaker, to hear the Prime Minister, one would believe that Mr. Roux should not have handed in his resignation earlier today. I am somewhat surprised. Normally, before important appointments are made, there is always an investigation conducted by the RCMP; that is the routine investigation commonly called a security check.

Could the Prime Minister tell us today if he looked at the RCMP's investigation report on Senator Roux before appointing him as lieutenant governor?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, I am always apprised of the findings of security investigations and, like the others, this one turned up nothing. I based my decision to appoint Senator Roux on what I knew at the time and, as

everyone knows, I just listed a few of the many things he has accomplished in Quebec society over the past 50 years.

[Gilles Duceppe, Bloc, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

Mr. Speaker, the Prime Minister has changed his tune a few times since yesterday. According to his Deputy Prime Minister, he was 100 per cent behind Jean-Louis Roux. According to what his press attache said yesterday, the Prime Minister was not aware of Jean-Louis Roux's remarks and actions. And today, the Prime Minister himself tells us Jean-Louis Roux raised the matter with him.

It is difficult to follow what the Prime Minister is saying. Let me put my question in clear and simple terms: Will the Prime Minister rise in his place and tell us today whether or not the routine RCMP investigation on Senator Roux contained any reference to events that took place in 1942?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, what I am saying is that this was a routine investigation, and no one ever brought anything to my attention that might have prevented Jean-Louis Roux's appointment as a member of the Senate of Canada.

We spoke, yesterday evening. I did not raise this matter since I knew nothing about it. He informed me of the facts now in the public domain, that I shared with the House a moment ago. This morning, he voluntarily tendered his resignation.

Yesterday, the Minister of Canadian Heritage defended Mr. Roux, whom I believe she described as an honourable man. Other ministers did the same during media scrums and I stand by that position. He made a deliberate choice to put an end to the controversy and to resign; we did not ask for his resignation.

[Deborah Grey, Reform, Beaver River, AB]

Mr. Speaker, Jean-Louis Roux has resigned but Canadians are worried about the government's mishandling of this issue.

They are having a hard time accepting why the government, and yesterday the Deputy Prime Minister, tried to dismiss the wearing of a swastika, which is the most vile symbol in history, as simply a youthful prank.

What Mr. Roux did in 1942 is reprehensible but so is the government's sidestepping of this issue. Instead of trying to deal with it head on, incredibly the Prime Minister still defends him. I ask the Prime Minister now: Will he admit that it was wrong for his government to try to defend the wearing of a swastika? And will he apologize to Canadians for his error in judgment?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, nobody at all defended that. In fact, I said that it was an error, and Mr. Roux himself said that it was an error which he regretted.

Nobody said that it was a defensible thing. What the leader of the-temporary leader, I guess, we do not see the leader very often-

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh.

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Saint-Maurice, QC]

We said that it was an error made by a young person 19 years old. We always said that it was an error. The deputy Prime Minister never said that it was not an error.

[Deborah Grey, Reform, Beaver River, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I might remind the Prime Minister that we had a few questions for him yesterday about several things, although he was not here to appreciate them.

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh.

[Some hon. members]

Hear, hear.

[The Speaker]

We are all even now so we will get on with question period.

[Deborah Grey, Reform, Beaver River, AB]

Mr. Speaker, we are even but I was the only one who got cut off, you will recall.

The Prime Minister is here today and I am really glad to be able to ask him a question. He is fond of saying that the buck stops with him.

The Prime Minister personally appointed Quebec's lieutenant-governor and if he did not know about Mr. Roux's past he certainly should have. Since the truth has now come out, it seems that he would much rather hide and hope things go away.

The sign of a good, strong leader is that if someone needs to be fired, he gets fired. We never see that here in the House of Commons. The Prime Minister always hopes things will go away. Will the Prime Minister accept full responsibility for the appointment of Jean-Louis Roux and will he admit finally, just once, that he has made a mistake?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, I have explained to the House of Commons all the circumstances of the incident. Mr. Roux resigned today and I have accepted his resignation.

I have to repeat that this man has served the population of Canada extremely well. He is a great artist. He made a mistake 54 years ago when he was 19 years old. It is all in the past. I do not believe anybody can take anything away from his great career and his great service to the Canadian population and the people of Quebec in particular.

[Deborah Grey, Reform, Beaver River, AB]

Mr. Speaker, we see it spotted on the front rows here that this Prime Minister simply is incapable of admitting that he has made a mistake. Why is it so difficult to say I am sorry?

We have to move on from here, of course, because there is a vacancy in the lieutenant-governorship of Quebec. Canadians would like to think that the Prime Minister will take more care in

appointing the next lieutenant-governor. The public and the province should be consulted, and merit alone, not loyalty to the Liberal Party, should the Prime Minister's guiding principle.

Now that the Prime Minister is ready to make another appointment, will he consult with the public and the province before appointing Quebec's lieutenant-governor, yes or no?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, I will follow the rule that was established in 1867. It is the prerogative of the Prime Minister to inform the premier of the province but he has to take full responsibility for the appointment.

I have taken full responsibility for all lieutenant-governor appointments I have made so far. In this case, I will repeat that this man made an error when he was 19 years old but his record shows very clearly to me and any objective person that he resigned because he did not want to be the object of a controversy.

However, no one should take anything away from his great contribution to the advancement of arts and culture in the province of Quebec. He also participated many times at the Stratford Festival in Ontario in a very eloquent way. It was fantastic to see a francophone perform so well in a Shakespearian play.

Mr. Jean-Louis Roux

[Michel Gauthier, Bloc, Leader of the Opposition]

Mr. Speaker, the Prime Minister's comments are rather ambiguous.

On the one hand, he tries to justify the former lieutenant- governor's actions. He admires his great career and is sorry he resigned. On the other hand, the Prime Minister tells us: "I did not know. It was not in the security report. I was not aware of these facts". He then tells us: "The lieutenant-governor was courageous enough to decide to resign on his own shedding a tear of regret".

What we want to know is this: If the Prime Minister had known the facts, would he still have appointed him? That is what the people want to know.

[The Speaker]

The hon. member has asked a hypothetical question, so I would ask him to please rephrase it.

[Michel Gauthier, Bloc, Roberval, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I understand you are giving me another chance to rephrase my first question so I can still ask a supplementary. I appreciate your diligence.

Mr. Speaker, what I would like to ask the Prime Minister, what we would like to know, is this: Does he think Jean-Louis Roux's resignation in these circumstances is a good thing? Does he approve of his resignation, his decision, does he think this is proper? That is what we want to know.