Debates of Feb. 27th, 1996

Committee Of The Whole

[The Speaker]

Does the member have unanimous consent to put the motion?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[Some hon. members]

No.

[The Speaker]

The question is on the motion.

(The House divided on the motion, which was agreed to on the following division:)

[The Speaker]

I declare the motion carried.

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, I move:

That Mrs. Pierrette Ringuette-Maltais, member for the electoral district of Madawaska-Victoria, be appointed Assistant Deputy Chairman of Committees of the Whole House.

[Ray Speaker, Reform, Lethbridge]

Mr. Speaker, I say again to the Prime Minister that we in this House would like to give him a second chance to meet the commitment he made to Canadians through the red book. The hon. member pointed out very clearly that the policy of the Liberal government is there in appendix B, endorsed, enunciated, clarified and committed to by this government. However, the government is not prepared to live up to those commitments. When will the government do that? It is very clear that it should at this point in time.

We are going to vote against the motion. Again it will be on principle, but it will be a little different from the other one. We do not agree with the Prime Minister's appointment in this case. Therefore, it is for two reasons that we will vote against the motion if it is to proceed.

I want to say this clearly and I want it on the record. On the last motion we voted on principle to reject the motion. We did not reject the appointee. The person named by the Prime Minister in that motion is acceptable to the Reform Party. However, in this instance, the hon. member for Madawaska-Victoria is not acceptable as far as we are concerned.

I believe that we must set the ground rules in this House so they are fair to all members of the House, whether they are on the government side or the opposition side. The ground rules for the second session of the 35th Parliament are being set in a manner that is going to be unfair with respect to the openness and the opportunity for us to debate in a fair manner. That is the way it is.

Mr. Speaker, I want to say clearly to you it is our intent to vote against this motion and to have a standing vote not only to record the Prime Minister's rejection of his own policy but also to indicate our lack of support for the appointee.

[Gilles Duceppe, Bloc, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

Mr. Speaker, we will also vote against this motion, and not because of the choice of the individual, particularly because she is a woman, and I think women should be given prominence in this House.

What we do oppose, however, is the method being used. The party in government should give some thought to the fact that it could still keep one of its promises without too much difficulty. We will therefore await its decision. It could perhaps make this motion with respect to other committees or other positions, but in this particular case, I think it should recall the red book. We are not opposed to the individual, but rather to the approach and the many forgotten promises, need I say.

[Bill Blaikie, NDP, Winnipeg—Transcona, MB]

Mr. Speaker, it seems to me this whole unfortunate mess could have been avoided if the government had shown a little imagination and innovation by living up to its own commitments. They are not radical commitments but things that have been done in other Parliaments and other legislatures that were quite doable.

Having said that, I regret that the Reform Party has made this a personal matter with respect to the appointment. I say on behalf of the NDP that we will continue to vote against these motions as a way of registering our objection to the fact the government did not

take the opportunity to bring in these reforms. It is not because we are making any statement about the person who has been suggested by the government.

[Cliff Breitkreuz, Reform, Yellowhead, AB]

Mr. Speaker, it gives me great pleasure to rise and speak to the motion before us concerning the appointment of the assistant deputy chair.

In the much vaunted Liberal red book the government indicated it would enact certain reforms to ensure the House functioned in a more democratic and open process. As part of that promise the Liberals said that two of the junior chairs or deputy chair positions would go to the opposition parties.

While in opposition the Liberals submitted a paper entitled "Reviving Parliamentary Democracy". This paper was signed onto by the chief government whip. One of the recommendations was that in order to enhance the independence of the Chair and in an effort to reduce the level of partisanship, two of the junior chair officers should be from the opposition side of the House.

Like so many other Liberal initiatives, it would appear to be a case of saying one thing while in opposition then doing nothing or another thing once in power. Like so many other Liberal promises, the commitment to enhancing democratic practice in the House of Commons will not be served by this motion to appoint both deputy chairs from the government side.

In particular the motion appointing the member for Madawaska-Victoria is as much an affront to the principles of fairness in this House as it is counterproductive to the goal of enhancing the independence of the Chair. It is on this point that I would like to elaborate for members in this Chamber.

There has been much comment lately about the chief government whip's intention to bring the Reform House leader before the Bar of the House on a charge of contempt of Parliament.

Given the hon. member's shortcomings as joint chair of the Standing Joint Committee on Official Languages, the motion to appoint the member for Madawaska-Victoria as assistant deputy chair can rightly be viewed by Reform MPs as contemptuous. As chair of the standing joint committee the member for Madawaska-Victoria-

[The Speaker]

Colleagues, on the matter of debate, your Speaker gives every latitude in the debate itself but I would appeal to the hon. member to be very judicious in his choice of words. I would ask him to keep that in mind for the remainder of his address to the House.

[Cliff Breitkreuz, Reform, Yellowhead, AB]

Mr. Speaker, as joint chair of the standing joint committee the member for Madawaska-Victoria has shown nothing but condescension for her opposition colleagues when addressing their concerns. On several occasions the member in question has gone so far as to not even allow the committee clerk to answer the questions of opposition MPs. Sadly, this member in her duties as joint chair has even impeded the ability of Reform members to bring forward motions.

In terms of being able to apply the standing orders of the House in a fair and even-handed manner, the member for Madawaska-Victoria has been unfair in the application of those very standing orders in committee on everything from the election of co-chair to not permitting votes on whether the chair should be sustained in her rulings. The hon. member has run roughshod over the legitimate responsibilities of fellow committee members, yet the government has the audacity to put this member's name forward for consideration as assistant deputy chair. What is even more ludicrous is that the government expects it to go uncontested by fair minded members who deserve and expect that the Chair be objective in its dealings with all members.

While in this House and during a debate on the MP pension plan, the member for Madawaska-Victoria showed a penchant for the type of close physical contact that appears to be the trademark of members across the way. Given the hon. Prime Minister's recent actions at a flag day ceremony in Hull, this would perhaps serve to explain the rationale behind the motion to appoint the member for Madawaska-Victoria as assistant deputy chair.

In closing, if this motion is to stand as a reflection of the government's commitment to enhance democratic procedure in the House, then Canadians might well ask whether they are well served by this government at all. Furthermore I call on members from both sides of the House to reject the appointment of the member for Madawaska-Victoria as assistant deputy chair.

[Jean Charest, Progressive Conservative, Sherbrooke, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I do not intend to be as long in my remarks but I will intervene to go on the record today that we are opposed to the motion. It is not for personal reasons, not for the reasons that my colleague just evoked and certainly not for personal reasons in regard to the motion that was just voted on in the House of Commons. It is that the government made a commitment and clearly has not lived up to that commitment. It is also my understanding that in these matters the government would usually consult with the opposition parties with regard to the nominations if only out of courtesy and in respect to the functioning of the House of Commons.

As I comment on why we are equally opposed to this motion, I cannot miss the opportunity to point out the incredible hypocrisy of Reform Party members. They have the gall to talk of fairness to all members as they speak and the same hypocrisy of a political party whose members ran saying that they would not apply personal politics to the House of Commons, that they would not behave the way other parties have behaved.

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh.

[Jean Charest, Progressive Conservative, Sherbrooke, QC]

Can you hear them now, Mr. Speaker, trying to shout me down? This is the same group of people who said that they could do politics differently. I hope Canadians will judge as they can judge all members of the Reform Party, including their colleague, Sugar Ray Grey.

[Jim Abbott, Reform, Kootenay East, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I would like to speak specifically to the principle involved here. I am looking at the red book put forward by the Liberals.

Quoting page 91, in the last election the Liberals said:

Canadians have always prided themselves on the quality of their democratic institutions. Yet after nine years of Conservative rule, cynicism about public institutions, governments, politicians, and the political process is at an all-time high.

I parenthesize here to state that they had not taken into account their own hypocrisy with respect to the commitments they were making to the people in the red book because in 1996 it is even higher than it was in 1993.

I continue from the red book:

If government is to play a positive role in society, as it must, honest and integrity in our political institutions must be restored.

The most important asset of government is the confidence it enjoys of the citizens to whom it is accountable. There is evidence today of considerable dissatisfaction with government and a steady erosion of confidence in the people and institutions of the public sector.

This erosion of confidence seems to have many causes: some have to do with the behaviour of certain elected politicians, others with an arrogant style of political leadership.

A few minutes ago the House leader for the Liberals talked about the statement that there were to be people elected from the opposition parties to fill the role of deputy chair. His direct inference-he is welcome to correct me if I misunderstood him-was basically that because it was not in the body of the red book it was not a promise.

On the back page of the red book, appendix B, platform papers, it states:

These policy statements were released by the Liberal Party on the dates shown. Copies may be obtained by writing to the Liberal Party of Canada.

One of the listings is Reviving Parliamentary Democracy: The Liberal Plan for House of Commons and Electoral Reform .

I draw to the member's attention, and if there are any fair minded Liberals in the House I draw this to their attention, that my House leader was reading from Reviving Parliamentary Democracy: The Liberal Plan for House of Commons and Electoral Reform , the document referred to in the appendix of the red book.

Although it appears within the binding of the red book as appendix B, if the House leader and the rest of the Liberals are saying that because this document was not quoted and not included in the body of the red book we cannot take the Liberals seriously, I suggest what we have been subjected to as Canadians with the red book is a trick, a ruse and a deception. There is no other way around it.

I call on all fair minded people in the House to take into account that the Minister of Health, the Minister of Labour, the member for Kingston and the Islands, and the Liberal government whip applied their names to this document which states:

In order to enhance the independence of the Chair and in an effort to reduce the level of partisanship, when the Speaker is from the government party, two of the junior chair officers should be from the opposition, so that the four presiding officer positions are shared equally by government and opposition.

If this was said by those four members, and indeed their names are applied to it, and if this document is referred to within the covers of the Liberal red book, I ask any fair minded member of the Liberal Party to at least abstain and if they have any backbone to vote against this appointment. Otherwise they will be failing on a matter of personal principle.

[John Nunziata, Liberal, York South—Weston, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I completely and unequivocally support the member for Madawaska-Victoria

It is unfortunate and regrettable that the Reform Party has personalized this rather important procedure we are going through. It now has gone beyond whether there was a commitment in the red book to have two of the junior officers from the opposition parties. This is the first time in the 11 or 12 years I have been in Parliament that the appointment or the election of the Speaker, the Deputy Speaker or junior officers of the chair has been politicized and personalized to the extent it has been today.

In order for you, Mr. Speaker, to be effective and in order for the Chair to be effective, you must together with your junior officers have the support and respect of all members and all parties in the House.

The moment the election of a Speaker or Deputy Speaker is decided on a partisan or party basis and once the matter becomes personalized, it is a very sad reflection on Parliament as a whole.

Earlier I tried to have the matter referred to a committee for further consideration. Some members of the House in their wisdom decided they would rather have a vote and personalize and politicize the election of the junior officers.

I abstained in the first vote because I believe that if we made a commitment in the election we should keep that commitment. I intend to abstain from this vote as well, not because I disagree in

any way with the appointment of the member for Madawaska-Victoria but because I disagree with the manner in which this matter is being dealt with today.

[Elwin Hermanson, Reform, Kindersley—Lloydminster, SK]

Mr. Speaker, I will speak briefly to this matter because it is something I was involved with earlier in my role as House leader for the Reform Party in the previous session of this Parliament.

It is not that the government was not aware of this promise. We talked about it in the procedure and House affairs committee and in the House. A commitment was made, a promise to change the way Deputy Speakers are selected. The government recognized and acknowledged in committee and in the House that it was a policy it had endorsed and that its party stood behind.

We are two years into the 35th Parliament and nothing has happened. Now there is a motion before us today to debate. This is a free country and we are allowed to speak. We should be consulted about who is being proposed. However, we were told who was being appointed. That is not consultation. We were not asked to work with the government in choosing Deputy Speakers. We were just told this was the way it was to be.

It is quite appropriate for those who have to deal with the Chair to be able to make comments before a person is appointed.

We have worked in committee and in the House with the person proposed to fill this position. At various times we have been slurred by this person. This person has been unparliamentary toward us. This person has denied us our parliamentary privileges. Certainly we cannot speak after a person is appointed. That is not the time to speak. The time to speak is before the damage is done while we can still fix it and help the Liberal government to fulfil a promise it made.

Today is an important day. It is the first day of the second session of this Parliament. The governor general has just read the speech from the throne and expects Canadians to believe the government will keep its promises and keep its commitments to Canadians.

Here is one of the simplest promises the government could have kept. It ignored it. It has flaunted us with its failure to keep its promises. Then it expects us and Canadians to believe it will keep its word, its commitment to Canadians about jobs, its commitment to Canadians about good reform to social programs. I doubt it. The government is playing games. It is playing with words. It does not prove its actions by its deeds.

The government could withdraw this motion. It could consult with us properly. It could commit to its promises. Then we would have a better Parliament. We would have a better situation in the House and we would be able to get on with the nation's business in an appropriate way.

[Don Boudria, Liberal, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

Mr. Speaker, it is a sad day for parliamentary democracy, in my opinion, when certain members choose to launch a personal attack on someone whom I believe to be worthy of the confidence of everyone in this House. The member for Madawaska-Victoria has a most distinguished career to her credit, both politically and personally.

She has studied at l'Université de Moncton and l'Université Laval and holds both a bachelor's and a master's degree. She has rendered distinguished service as deputy speaker of the legislature in her home province of New Brunswick, bringing the wealth of that experience with her to this House when she was elected to it. Furthermore, she has been a member of the New Brunswick chapter of the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association and has acquitted herself in a distinguished manner during several missions as an election observer. I believe that her outstanding contributions should make all of us parliamentarians proud to have someone of the calibre of the hon. member for Madawaska-Victoria as a colleague.

It is rather sad to see something like this happening. Certain members of the Reform Party have every right to say that a government could have made a promise, ought to have, or whatever. It is certain that the government, as it has indicated today in the speech from the throne, has already fulfilled close to 75 per cent of its commitments by this mid-point in its mandate, with more yet to come. The House leader also brought to our attention today the government's readiness to refer the matter to a parliamentary committee. He made that same offer, moreover, a little earlier on, when speaking about another appointment.

It is now obvious that this was not what the Reformers wanted. Some of them, in fact, have indicated that what they had in mind was not referring the matter to a parliamentary committee-since that was what the House leader was offering to do-but rather attacking a subsequent appointment, choosing as their victim not only another colleague in the House, not only the only woman among the four nominees, not only a member of a francophone minority community, but also a distinguished parliamentarian, one with experience in the Chair and in a legislative assembly. Let them go ahead and do so. The people of Canada will judge them for their actions.

[Madeleine Dalphond-Guiral, Bloc, Laval Centre, QC]

Mr. Speaker, my remarks will be brief, but I am sure I speak for my colleagues in the official opposition in roundly criticizing attitudes targeting individuals who hold values that the official opposition is proud to defend.

There is such a thing as respect for people, and I think that, when Canada's Parliament allows respect for individuals to fall by the wayside through comments made, we must speak out, and I am grateful to my colleague for having talked about this totally unacceptable attitude.

[Chuck Strahl, Reform, Fraser Valley East, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I have a few comments I would like to add to the debate. What we are really debating is the integrity of the government and its willingness and ability to keep its promises.

It is very symbolic on the day of the throne speech at the start of the second session of this Parliament to hear the general statements made. I know this is not a debate on that speech, but with those general promises Canadians have good reason to wonder that if they cannot trust the government on the small things, can they trust it on the larger ones?

As was pointed out by government members, a promise was made to appoint deputy chair positions from the opposition benches. This seems to follow the trend on any democratic reforms which the Liberal government has talked about, which is the tendency to ignore the very things on which it campaigned.

For example, we have yet to see free votes in the House of Commons. Where are they? They are not here. It is a sad thing and something which could easily be remedied by a statement from the Prime Minister.

In a few days we will go through the charade of the election of the co-chairs of committees. When that comes up we will again see what will happen. The whip will tell party members who will be the chairs. The people sitting opposite are just voting machines. They are robots. They are seals. That is a shame because there are some very competent people over there who could be doing much more.

The government appointed an ethics counsellor. The ethics counsellor does not report to the House, but to the Prime Minister behind closed doors. That is not an ethics counsellor. That is someone who barks on demand. That is not good enough.

Now we have the latest broken promise, a promise printed in black and white in the red book: to appoint the chairs from the second and third parties.

I also have to comment on some of the things which have been said regarding the way this person was selected. I have heard three comments made in the House which have indicated that the reason this person should be selected is because she is female and she is from a minority position in a province.

The government has done itself a disservice. There are many competent women in the House who could fulfil the role. However, the government needs to look for a consensus among the parties for the people that have the respect of the parties and of all members to hold that chair; that neutral position. That is what should determine it, not the gender of the person.

I do not think anyone here, of either gender, would say that they have in the past felt slighted because someone of another gender was in the Chair. That is ridiculous. It is a preposterous way to choose someone for the position. It is a mistake to select people based on their gender for the very important role about which we are talking today.

I would like to add that after the hon. member for Sherbrooke rose to add his particular brand of whatever one would call it to this debate, I have to say that we have nothing to learn from the Conservatives when it comes to democratic reform. Absolutely nothing.

We watched in disdain from afar his government over eight years use one example after another of absolutely contemptuous behaviour toward the House of Commons and the people in it. The only thing he is right about is that it seems the members over there on the Liberal side have learned well. It is a shame on them. It is a shame to this Parliament. It brings about the entire issue that this whole thing is symbolic of: You cannot trust the Liberals.

[Dick Harris, Reform, Prince George—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Mr. Speaker, the government whip said that this is a sad day in the House of Commons and I have to agree with him. It is a sad day in the House when another promise contained in the Liberal red book has been broken once again.

Reform members have sat here day after day for the last two years and have watched over and over again as the government has failed to fulfil promises which it made in its infamous red book. Congratulations, once again, to the Liberal government.

The hon. government whip mentioned in his comments two words, confidence and trust of this House. I am sure hon. members will agree with me that the characteristics of confidence, trust and respect are not something that is taken on as a mantle with this appointment. Indeed, confidence, trust and respect must be earned. It is not something that is bestowed on a person.

As members of my party have pointed out earlier, the member for Madawaska-Victoria in her duties on the committees that she has chaired has not exhibited the characteristics of confidence and trust. This party would not be comfortable with having that person in the chair as Acting Speaker.

For this reason I must oppose the appointment of this person as well as the mechanism by which this appointment is being made, in blatant disregard of the promise of the Liberal red book.

I would also like to refer to the statements made by the member for Sherbrooke in respect to his comments of our party talking of hypocrisy. Let me remind the House that this is the same member who not more than a year ago on national television said that some day Canadians will realize what a great Prime Minister Brian Mulroney was. Enough said.

[Jim Gouk, Reform, Kootenay West—Revelstoke, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I have a short comment for the record to clarify or counter what was said by the other side of the House.

I want to make it absolutely clear that when we vote against the person proposed it is not because she is female, it is not because of where she is from, it is not because of her French connection. There is a certain level of partisanship in this House. I get along with some people on the other side of the House very well. They are very fair-minded. I may disagree with them. I may agree with them. But it does not alter the fact that they are presenting their views very clearly and very fairly.

There are some on the other side of the House that come from the west that are male, that are anglophone, that I would not want to see in that position either. We are voting because of the characteristics of the partisanship of this individual, not because of gender, language or any other factor.

There is a history in this Parliament in the first session of very credible people sitting in the chair that you now occupy, Mr. Speaker. At the very least the Liberal government should keep up that tradition.

[Margaret Bridgman, Reform, Surrey North, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I would like to add to the statement of my colleague. This is exactly what we are on about. It is not a personalized instance at all.

Basically what we are talking about is merit and how we perceive it. There are other choices in this House and we feel that based on merit that this is not a good choice.

[Werner Schmidt, Reform, Okanagan Centre, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I enter this debate by recollecting the day that you were elected as Speaker of this House. I was so impressed as a rookie MP coming into this House to see how the Speaker was elected to the office, the august position that you hold, to keep impartial judgment of what happens and to apply the rules in a fair and accurate manner so that everybody would be treated fairly.

I commend you for all the good things you have done and I commend the Liberal Party, the government, for the way in which this House started. It was wonderful. However we have seen that degenerate to the point where we are today debating a promise that was made and is now being ignored. There is a denial of the very good place where this House started, the way in which you were elected, Mr. Speaker. I honour and respect and have great confidence in that.

We are now seeing a degeneration of that very noble start into something that has become partisan, that has become personal. It is a denigration of the respect that this House should enjoy in the hearts and the minds of every Canadian.

I am not proud to have to say this today. Mr. Speaker, I appeal to you that this motion be withdrawn and that a fair and accurate election take place of this individual to the office of Acting Speaker at the level that is being proposed in this motion.