Debates of March 13th, 1996

Old Age Security

[Douglas Young, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development]

Mr. Speaker, the hon. member would agree that prior to the budget and prior to statements by the Prime Minister, a lot of senior citizens in the country were extremely concerned because a number of comments and studies indicated that the entire program was in great difficulty.

The Prime Minister's undertaking was to ensure that no one who was presently benefiting from OAS-GIS would be affected by the changes. He made that commitment in this place and elsewhere.

I am sure the hon. member will agree that when the Minister of Finance brought in his budget, not only did he honour the commitment made by the Prime Minister, but he extended that commitment by making sure that no one who was 60 on January 1 of this year was going to be affected by any changes.

I am sure that most senior citizens appreciate the hon. member joining them and applauding the fact that the government has now predictability and sustainability in what was formerly the OAS-GIS which is now the combined seniors benefit.

[Jan Brown, Reform, Calgary Southeast, AB]

Mr. Speaker, let us look a little more closely at this issue. The Liberal government does not appear to care about the retirement security of seniors despite the response of the hon. member.

Not only did it kill OAS but it also attacked seniors by dropping the age limit for RRSPs from 71 to 69. Finance officials have confirmed that this attack on our seniors' pensions will generate billions of dollars in tax revenue for the Liberals.

This Liberal government is playing petty politics with the retirement security of our seniors. Our seniors fought in wars to make our country great.

Why will the finance minister not keep is money grubbing, neck throttling, tax grabbing hands off our RRSPs?

[Douglas Young, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development]

Mr. Speaker, it is obvious that the hon. member feels very strongly about this.

She has to come to grips with the real choices that face Canadians every day and also face the government and that is to make a choice between trying to maintain programs and systems in place to assist those who are most vulnerable in our society and recognize that people who are somewhat better off often recognize their obligations of having to make significant contributions.

The true test of the changes that were announced by the Minister of Finance in his budget comes when you look at the reaction of senior citizens around the country. No one could possibly contemplate continuing a system where there was uncertainty, where people actually could not prepare to plan for their futures.

The results of testing show the reaction from senior citizen's groups around the country. People do have confidence that when they retire there will be a program in place. Those who are already retired and those who are within five years of being 65 years of age also have certainty.

Collection Of Unpaid Taxes

[Michel Guimond, Bloc, Beauport—Montmorency—Orléans, QC]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of National Revenue. In his November 1994 report, the Auditor General of Canada deplored Revenue Canada's inefficiency in collecting unpaid taxes. As of May 31, 1995, more than a year and a half after this report was released, there were still $6.4 billion in unpaid taxes, a reduction of less than 5 per cent compared to the year before.

How can the minister justify the fact that 400,000 high income taxpayers still owe the government more than $6 billion in unpaid taxes?

[Jane Stewart, Liberal, Minister of National Revenue]

Mr. Speaker, the Department of National Revenue has a very good record when it comes to collecting receivables.

We as a department have worked extremely hard, as I mentioned yesterday, on the underground economy. We are focusing on Canadians who are taxpayers. We need to have those moneys in our coffers.

We have a good record and we will continue with that record.

[Michel Guimond, Bloc, Beauport—Montmorency—Orléans, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I would like to know what the minister intends to do, in concrete-I repeat concrete-terms, to collect these unpaid taxes, to ensure that the most disadvantaged in our society will not pay once again for the government's inaction?

[Jane Stewart, Liberal, Minister of National Revenue]

Mr. Speaker, if the hon. member had read our budget or listened to the Minister of Finance he would know that in a very concrete way we have addressed this issue. Fifty million dollars will be coming into the Department of National Revenue to help us audit in a more extensive way those sectors of the economy at risk to the underground economy.

Employment

[Monte Solberg, Reform, Medicine Hat, AB]

Mr. Speaker, the budget offered absolutely no hope for the 1.4 million unemployed Canadians, not to mention the 2.5 million under employed and all the rest of the people who are so concerned about losing their jobs.

The government campaigned on the promise that it would create jobs, jobs, jobs. Why has it not improved on its disgraceful record of job creation? Sixty-five thousand jobs over the last year for 1.4 million unemployed Canadians is disgraceful. Why has it not met its promises?

[Doug Peters, Liberal, Secretary of State (International Financial Institutions)]

Mr. Speaker, the hon. member should look at the statistics again.

Since the government came to power over 500,000 new jobs have been created. They are permanent jobs and they are in the private sector.

There was a problem last year. The world economy did slow and there was less job creation than we wanted. However, as I mentioned earlier to the leader of the Reform Party, in the last three months we have seen a strong growth in job creation, and the budget will ensure that continues.

[Monte Solberg, Reform, Medicine Hat, AB]

Mr. Speaker, those words mean nothing to people concerned about their future. People are very concerned about the lack of job growth and the slowness of the economy.

The government ran on the promise that it would create jobs. They do not exist. Will the minister admit the real cause of unemployment is that we do not have lower taxes and therefore we do not have the type of job creation we need to give people some hope that we will get out of this malaise?

The government ran on the promise of jobs, jobs, jobs. All the government has given people is despair, despair, despair. When will it meet its promise of creating jobs?

[Doug Peters, Liberal, Secretary of State (International Financial Institutions)]

Mr. Speaker, it is very interesting that the Reform Party is suggesting tax cuts. That would only raise the deficit. In the last two years all I have heard from the Reform Party is that the deficit should be reduced. Now it is suggesting tax cuts which would raise the deficit.

We have instituted a policy of rolling two-years targets and the second part of that policy is meeting those targets. We have been successful in doing so. We have three budgets down and we will continue to meet those targets. That is the best way to create jobs.

Securities

[Maud Debien, Bloc, Laval East, QC]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Acting Prime Minister. The federal government recently announced its intention to establish a Canadian securities commission. Meanwhile, provincial securities commissions are currently putting in place a co-ordinating system, known as electronic document analysis and retrieval, or SEDAR, to ensure a true integration of financial markets. In that context, the Canadian commission will very clearly be another useless and costly example of overlap.

Given that the provinces' co-ordination work is already well under way, will the minister finally recognize that this initiative is totally unnecessary and that the federal government is more interested in asserting its authority in an area that comes under provincial jurisdiction than in promoting financial market effectiveness?

[Marcel Massé, Liberal, President of the Treasury Board and Minister responsible for Infrastructure]

Mr. Speaker, on the contrary, I personally had discussions with a number of provincial officials who asked for the establishment of a unified securities commission. The reason for this is simple: businessmen who need to raise funds across the country do not want to have to deal with 10 different securities commissions. They want to be able to get the funds they need under a set of harmonized rules for the whole country, since it is cheaper that way.

This is why it was proposed to create a Canadian securities commission. If a province does not want to join up with the federal securities commission, it is absolutely free to do so. This is only a proposal to create a partnership to serve Canadians better.

[Maud Debien, Bloc, Laval East, QC]

Mr. Speaker, first, I want to point out to the minister that while there are businessmen there are also businesswomen.

Second, I asked a question to the minister concerning SEDAR. Obviously, the minister is not aware of the existence of that system, which is a co-ordination instrument being set up by the various provincial securities commissions. This comes as no surprise, considering that effectiveness and harmonization are not synonymous with federalism and centralization.

Since the provinces have clearly taken the initiative to meet a real need, will the minister stop once and for all trying to take control of everything and accusing the provinces of being ineffective?

[Marcel Massé, Liberal, President of the Treasury Board and Minister responsible for Infrastructure]

Mr. Speaker, nobody is accusing anyone of being ineffeffective as regards the securities sector. However, there are businesspeople who clearly asked the federal government and their provincial government, in order to promote job creation and more profitable investments, to create a securities commission with a single set of rules for the whole country.

Once again, the idea is not to impose anything, but to offer Canadians the best possible service. Bloc members who put Quebec's interests first should know when it is in their best interests to have national standards that help Quebecers within Canada to have better investments and to create jobs. Now is not

the time to have an ideology that prevents businesspeople from creating jobs in Quebec.

Taxation

[Alex Shepherd, Liberal, Durham, ON]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Finance.

Due to recent changes in the Canada-U.S. tax treaty over 81,000 Canadians who receive U.S. social security have witnessed one-quarter of their benefits disappear at the hands of the IRS. Many of these are low income seniors. Americans who receive similar payments from Canada are allowed to seek a refund, but this is denied Canadians.

What is the Minister of Finance doing to redress this inequity in tax treatments of low income seniors?

[Doug Peters, Liberal, Secretary of State (International Financial Institutions)]

Mr. Speaker, this is of interest to a large number of Canadians. It is an issue that has been brought to the attention of the Minister of Finance.

The background is that we updated our treaty with the U.S. specifically to get rid of double taxation and also to let us recover OAS going to high income seniors just as we do in Canada.

We have these taxation provisions in place with other countries such as Germany, France and Austria. The large number of Canadians receiving U.S. benefits makes this a very special case. This is a concern to us and we have raised the issue with Canadian and U.S. officials.

After this communication the Minister of Finance will be speaking this week to his counterpart in the U.S., Mr. Rubin. I anticipate that either I or the minister will keep the House informed of the progress on this important issue.

Canadian Wheat Board

[Elwin Hermanson, Reform, Kindersley—Lloydminster, SK]

Mr. Speaker, a growing number of prairie grain farmers want the Canadian Wheat Board to be made more accountable and transparent. This means the wheat board must be made to open its books.

It is amazing that the Canadian Wheat Board remains exempt from the scrutiny of the auditor general and so is closed to Canadian farmers and the public.

When will the minister of agriculture open the books of the Canadian Wheat Board and make it financially accountable to farmers by having the auditor general do an audit of the board?

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Minister of Agriculture and Agri-Food]

Mr. Speaker, as the hon. gentleman knows, the Canadian Wheat Board is already subject to an annual audit, conducted by a very well known national accounting firm in Canada, according to all national and international accounting standards. On the issue of an annual audit, it is already accomplished.

In terms of the general argument about opening the books, there is a process under way right now in western Canada under the jurisdiction of the western grain marketing panel that is looking at a variety of complaints about our marketing system. A number of arguments are being made before that panel with respect to transparency and accountability. I hope we will receive some very useful advice from the panel on how to improve accountability and transparency through the operations of the Canadian Wheat Board.

I remind the hon. member the Canadian Wheat Board operates in an intensely competitive international environment. I hope he would apply the same standards to international grain companies like Cargill, Continental and others that he would presume to apply to the Canadian Wheat Board.

[Elwin Hermanson, Reform, Kindersley—Lloydminster, SK]

Mr. Speaker, it is interesting that the minister mentions the audit. Deloitte & Touche does the audit. Deloitte & Touche has done an independent review of the Canadian Wheat Board. I managed to get hold of a copy.

It states there are deficiencies in the operations, management structure and accountability to grain farmers of the Canadian Wheat Board. It said its annual operational plans generally do not exist and budgeting or forecasting of expenses does not exist. These are a few of the problems mentioned in the report.

If the minister is so open and wants to co-operate in the process, why has he kept the report a secret from the public? Can the minister tell concerned grain farmers what the wheat board has done to address the serious deficiencies stated in the Deloitte & Touche study?

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Minister of Agriculture and Agri-Food]

Mr. Speaker, the kinds of concerns referred to by the hon. gentleman in his question are among the very reasons the western grain marketing panel is conducting work at present across western Canada. As we speak, the panel is conducting a series of public hearings in Winnipeg and it will go on to hold hearings in Edmonton and in Regina. The process is entirely open, entirely transparent.

If the hon. gentleman has more than just allegations and accusations, if he has specific, constructive suggestions on how to improve the marketing of western Canadian grain, I invite him to put those ideas before the western grain marketing panel so that they can be aired and reviewed in the proper forum.

Canadian Security Intelligence Service

[François Langlois, Bloc, Bellechasse, QC]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the solicitor general. When CSIS was created, RCMP officers who were integrated into CSIS retained their rights, including the bilingualism bonus. However, after their integration, the then director general of CSIS, acting as a separate employer, abolished this bonus.

Is the government willing to restore, now and on a retroactive basis, the bilingualism bonus for RCMP officers transferred to CSIS?

[Herb Gray, Liberal, Leader of the Government in the House of Commons and Solicitor General of Canada]

Mr. Speaker, I will take my hon. colleague's interesting question under advisement and get back to him as quickly as possible.

[François Langlois, Bloc, Bellechasse, QC]

Mr. Speaker, in making these inquiries, could the solicitor general also take into consideration the fact that the current director general of CSIS is willing to restore the bilingualism bonus, as long as the government and Treasury Board provide him with sufficient funds to do so?

[Herb Gray, Liberal, Leader of the Government in the House of Commons and Solicitor General of Canada]

Mr. Speaker, again, I will make inquiries on this interesting matter and get back to my hon. colleague as quickly as possible.