Debates of March 26th, 1996

Statistics Canada

[John Manley, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

-by taking a rather challenging written test. Only those who are qualified will be selected to perform the task.

[The Speaker]

I remind you, colleagues, that sometimes we are close to the microphones and our conversations carry over.

[Gilles Duceppe, Bloc, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

Mr. Speaker, like you, I also heard the Minister of Human Resources Development making essentially irrelevant comments yet again. This is what he does, Mr. Speaker.

Would the minister responsible for Statistics Canada and thus for its activities and its operations tell us his criteria for determining whether a list is a priority one rather than a regular one?

[John Manley, Liberal, Minister of Industry]

Mr. Speaker, I hope I understand the hon. member's question correctly. Let me make sure we set out the process.

In the appointment of census commissioners, I wrote to every member of Parliament and invited them to submit a name as a contact person. From those names, Statistics Canada solicited possible people to serve as census commissioners. In many cases the contact person submitted their own name.

All those people were subject to very thorough testing at two stages. They were required to write a written test and they were required to submit to an interview process conducted by public servants who were regular or term employees of Statistics Canada.

From that, over 2,000 census commissioners across Canada were hired. Subsequent to that, there is a request for further names for census representatives.

As I explained a moment ago, 35,000 across the country is not a bad number. I am forwarding any names left over or which come to me from members of Parliament for those positions. I invite the member if he has some names to submit them to me. I would be happy to forward them on his behalf.

Taxation

[Preston Manning, Reform, Calgary Southwest, AB]

Mr. Speaker, every senior government in Canada with the exception of the federal government is now committed to deficit elimination and balancing its budget.

Eight jurisdictions are expected to balance their budgets this fiscal year or post surpluses. This means that a number of provincial jurisdictions are getting close to being able to offer tax relief to their people. Their concern is that the federal government, still running a $30 billion deficit, will cancel out provincial tax cuts with federal tax increases.

Will the finance minister today assure his provincial counterparts that his government will not raise federal taxes when provinces cut theirs?

[Paul Martin, Liberal, Minister of Finance]

Mr. Speaker, the leader of the Reform Party has a tendency, I am sure due to a difficulty in the research department, to ask the same question time and time again.

He has asked this question before. I have said to him that at the last meeting of the finance ministers we discussed this very issue and their was complete agreement on the need for co-ordination, that it made no sense for governments to fill in tax room, one on the other in either way. We will continue to co-operate in that way.

Eight provinces have either balanced their budgets or are looking to balance their budgets, absolutely. One of the reasons is that in the transfers to the provinces established by the federal government we have provided a formula for growth.

If the federal government had followed the policies of the Reform Party to slash and eviscerate those transfers, those provinces would not be able to balance their books.

[Preston Manning, Reform, Calgary Southwest, AB]

Mr. Speaker, one of the biggest problems the provinces are having in balancing their budgets is the drastic reduction in transfers instituted by the government, exactly opposite to what the minister said.

These are not unfounded fears. Despite the minister's assurances that this has all been discussed with provincial counterparts and that there is agreement, there is not agreement. If the minister is so confident this agreement can be reached would he be prepared to enter into a formal federal-provincial tax relief agreement to ensure that tax relief measures adopted by either level of government are passed on to the long suffering Canadian taxpayer?

[Paul Martin, Liberal, Minister of Finance]

Mr. Speaker, we have made it very clear that with the provinces we are prepared to sit down and take a look at the whole area of federal-provincial tax co-ordination. We have made it very clear and we will be discussing it at the next meeting.

I find it very difficult to understand how the leader of the Reform Party could stand up not one minute ago and say that one of the

problems is the drastic reductions we have imposed on the provinces when in fact his budget from last year had reductions that made ours look like a peanut hill; they were enormous.

Why will he not be consistent? How can he stand up here one day and say one thing, then stand up the next day and say another? Is there no coherence in the Reform Party at all?

[Preston Manning, Reform, Calgary Southwest, AB]

Mr. Speaker, the statements by the finance minister concerning Reform's budget are false.

This is not an academic matter. The finance minister will recall that his predecessor, Michael Wilson, in the late 1980s attempted to reduce federal taxes and managed to do that in a couple of years. However, the provinces, particularly the Liberal provincial government in Ontario, increased provincial taxes to sop up the tax relief granted by the federal government, and the taxpayers never saw any of it. Now people are afraid the same thing will happen in reverse.

I ask the minister again for a yes or no answer. Will he enter into a federal-provincial tax relief agreement to ensure that tax relief given by one level of government is not taken away by another level of government?

[Paul Martin, Liberal, Minister of Finance]

Mr. Speaker, I have answered the question. I said that what we want to do and what the provinces have agree to do is sit down and take a look at the way the provinces and the federal government tax the same taxpayer. We have agreed to co-ordinate.

Perhaps I should remind the leader of the Reform Party that in our first budget there were no increases in personal taxes. In our second budget there were no increases in personal income taxes. In our third budget there were no increases in personal taxes, corporate taxes or excise taxes; there were no increases in taxes at all.

Statistics Canada

[Michel Bellehumeur, Bloc, Berthier—Montcalm, QC]

Mr. Speaker, we know that the Minister of Industry, who is responsible for the census, has introduced a system of lists and names having priority in the hiring of census representatives at Statistics Canada.

Does the minister confirm that it is up to his own office to decide which lists have priority?

[John Manley, Liberal, Minister of Industry]

Mr. Speaker, I think I have answered that question. Let me answer a different question.

If the hon. member is asking whether as minister responsible for Statistics Canada I am involved in staffing the census positions, the answer is yes. Under the Statistics Act the minister responsible for Statistics Canada is authorized to appoint the staff required to conduct a census.

However, the way we have gone about doing this in order to provide as many names as possible so that the most qualified people could obtain jobs was to use the political process as a source of names.

As I have told the member, with respect to census commissioners, that has been done through all members of Parliament providing a contact person. In the case of representatives from the Bloc Quebecois, from the Reform Party, from the NDP and from the Liberal Party, many people did not successfully qualify for the position.

Consequently, with respect to the 35,000 positions for census representatives, we have asked that, being subjected to testing first, people who have been submitted through my office be hired if they are qualified.

I am prepared to do that for any member of Parliament who indicates, as many official opposition members have, that they feel their people were better qualified than the testing revealed them to be on the first go-round. They are perfectly welcome to submit names.

[Michel Bellehumeur, Bloc, Berthier—Montcalm, QC]

Mr. Speaker, that was a long answer to a question that was quite simple. I want to give the minister another opportunity to answer a simple question.

Does the minister confirm that Liberals are invited to provide names on a list given priority by his office for federal ridings held by non-Liberal members, yes or no? That is a simple question.

[John Manley, Liberal, Minister of Industry]

Mr. Speaker, again let us be perfectly clear. If the member is asking me if names were being submitted from my office solely for Liberals, the answer is no.

If he would like to make sure names are submitted from his riding, from his list, for census representatives I invite him to do so. Point final.

Indian Affairs

[John Duncan, Reform, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Mr. Speaker, the Nisga'a deal transfers ownership of a section of the public highway from Terrace to New Aiyansh and Greenville to the Nisga'a.

The minister knows that road blockades in B.C. have revolved around legal ownership of right of way at Adams Lake and Apex Mountain. These disputes remain unresolved and the minister conveniently has washed his hands of responsibility.

Why is the minister promoting an agreement that removes longstanding public ownership of public highways when he knows the precedent is a recipe for future problems?

[Ron Irwin, Liberal, Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development]

Mr. Speaker, dealing specifically with access, which was the point of the question, I am very proud of the access provisions of the agreement.

They provide public access to Nisga'a lands for hunting, fishing and recreation. The Nisga'a will regulate access based on safety, environment, cultural and historic sites and habitat. The province is to maintain the roads. The federal and provincial governments can acquire Nisga'a land for fair compensation for access. It is a very modern approach to access which the province of B.C., the Nisga'a and the federal government are quite proud of.

[John Duncan, Reform, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Mr. Speaker, the minister is continuing to perpetuate myths which do not stand up to scrutiny in the agreement.

Recently in the House the minister said there was no constitutionally protected commercial fishery in the Nisga'a deal. This same claim was made in some B.C. government ads which led to complaints. This resulted in the provincial aboriginal affairs minister's withdrawing the ads because they were inaccurate and misleading.

Will the minister follow the lead of his provincial counterpart and do the honourable thing by rescinding and withdrawing his earlier misleading statement?

[Ron Irwin, Liberal, Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development]

Mr. Speaker, the only thing mystical in the Nisga'a deal is the absence of the member of Parliament from the area on an invitation to the signing.

Concerning the fisheries, there was quite a bit of negotiation on the commercial aspect of the fishery and whether it would be constitutionally protected. The Nisga'a demanded that it be constitutionally protected. In the end this was withdrawn.

The commercial aspect of the fishery is not constitutionally protected. It is defined annually by a committee or commission of two Nisga'a and two federal representatives and reports directly to the Minister of Fisheries and Oceans.

Statistics Canada

[Gilbert Fillion, Bloc, Chicoutimi, QC]

Mr. Speaker, obviously, the Minister of Industry is in the process of introducing at Statistics Canada a patronage system that is incompatible with the very role of the department.

By taking it upon himself to appoint Statistics Canada's census representatives on a partisan basis, is the minister not guilty of patronage in the performance of his duties?

[John Manley, Liberal, Minister of Industry]

Mr. Speaker, I suspect some of my colleagues would wish that I plead guilty to that accusation.

The system in place is based on testing and qualification by public servants evaluating the lists of names submitted for census commissioner by contract persons and other sources from all members of the House of Commons.

The second process is with respect to the hiring of the census representatives. There are over 35,000 of these people across the country subject to a two stage testing process.

In reflection of the fact that members of Parliament from all parties expressed some frustration that not all the people they considered qualified had succeeded in being chosen as census commissioners, we have asked Statistics Canada to give priority to those candidates who were tested and proven to be qualified for the census representative position who were referred through the minister's office. That includes names given by members of Parliament other than members of the governing party.

I invite the hon. member to do this but he does not have much time.

[Gilbert Fillion, Bloc, Chicoutimi, QC]

Mr. Speaker, yesterday, Senator Hervieux-Payette described the government as totally upright. Would the Minister of Industry say that his actions related to the 1996 census are in keeping with the government's rules of conduct?

[John Manley, Liberal, Minister of Industry]

Mr. Speaker, as I indicated in my answer to an earlier question, the Statistics Canada Act gives full discretion for the minister to appoint directly the people involved in the census process.

Rather than doing that, on a fully transparent patronage basis I have invited all members of Parliament to participate by submitting names. But I stress, with 35,000 of these people, most of the hirees are going to be people recruited directly by Statistics Canada either from the Canada employment offices or references from various groups and organizations in ridings across the country.

The census is going to be held and it is going to be on time. If the hon. member has some names, he had better get them in this week.

Canadian Security Intelligence Service

[Val Meredith, Reform, Surrey—White Rock—South Langley, BC]

Mr. Speaker, on February 29 the Solicitor General of Canada advised the House that he had been assured by the director of CSIS that a mole was not operating within CSIS. He also advised that SIRC was unable to confirm allegations that there was a mole within CSIS.

Today I would like to hear the minister's opinion on the matter. Is the solicitor general personally convinced that there is not a Russian spy operating within CSIS?

[Herb Gray, Liberal, Leader of the Government in the House of Commons and Solicitor General of Canada]

Mr. Speaker, I will not try to give further information about employment of census commissioners but instead I will say to the hon. member who has raised a serious question that I have no information that would lead me to change anything I have said in my previous answers.

[Val Meredith, Reform, Surrey—White Rock—South Langley, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I do not blame the solicitor general for being somewhat hesitant in providing the House with a more positive response.

Perhaps the minister should ask the director that if he is so convinced that the employee in question is not a mole, why did this employee have unreported contact with targets of the service, travel to another region to meet a CSIS source without authorization, have tens of the thousands of dollars in unexplained cash, lie during his security interview and fail a polygraph exam?