Debates of March 6th, 1996

Somalia Inquiry

[Pierrette Venne, Bloc, Saint-Hubert, QC]

Mr. Speaker, the commission of inquiry on Somalia is just as muddled as the events it is investigating.

On February 29, the Minister of Justice said in this House that, in order to avoid a conflict of interest, and I repeat, in order to avoid a conflict of interest, he had asked certain individuals to be represented by counsel of their choice rather than counsel from the Department of Justice.

How does the Minister of Finance explain the fact that the highest ranking officers currently under investigation, that is, Lieutenant-General Gordon Reay, General James Gervais, General John de Chastelain and Admiral John Anderson along with the former deputy minister, Robert Fowler, continue to be represented by counsel from his department?

[Allan Rock, Liberal, Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada]

Mr. Speaker, it should be remembered that the commission itself, when it undertook its work, said it would focus the inquiry on the senior members of the forces.

In recent months it has interviewed some of the more junior ranking officers and enlisted personnel. This matter came up in the House last week and I take this occasion to repeat what I said then. The fundamental principle on which we have operated is that where interests conflict separate representation will be afforded.

In 13 cases so far we have arranged to have separate lawyers retained and paid for by the Government of Canada so that individual interest can be represented.

Whenever in the course of an interview or in the course of testimony it becomes clear that there is a difference between the interest of that person and the institutional interest of the government, we ask that the proceedings stop and we advise the person of the right to separate counsel. If the person makes that choice, we arrange for them to get a separate lawyer.

As I said last week, if the hon. member is aware of any case in which justice is not being served because that process is not being followed, I encourage them to tell me about it so that we can redress it immediately.

[Pierrette Venne, Bloc, Saint-Hubert, QC]

Mr. Speaker, if the Minister of Justice does not consider this a flagrant conflict of interest, what does he think of the fact that lawyers from his department are concocting both the prosecution and the defence of the senior ranking officers and that, moreover, they are sitting at the same table during the hearings and regularly consulting each other about the course the hearing is taking?

[Allan Rock, Liberal, Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada]

Mr. Speaker, I am afraid I do not understand the point the hon. member is trying to make. I hear words being used but they do not add up, at least in my mind, to an effective criticism of the process.

The commission is represented by separate counsel, not government counsel, paid for by the people. The government and the Department of National Defence are represented by justice lawyers.

As I have said, if others appear who happen to be present or former employees of government who have a different interest they will be separately represented.

The lawyers acting for the commission are not government lawyers, not justice lawyers. If the hon. member has a specific concern in mind I invite her to write me about it. I will look into it and I will respond to it directly. However, at the moment I am not able to see in anything she said today grounds for complaint.

Canadian Sovereignty

[Preston Manning, Reform, Calgary Southwest, AB]

Mr. Speaker, on behalf of Canadians and constituents of Reform members particularly I again state our condemnation of the shooting down of two private U.S. planes by Cuba. I also state our equally strong condemnation of the American anti-Cuba trade bill that encroaches on our sovereignty and the anti-Canadian statements by Senator Jesse Helms.

Surely it is time for the government to do more than wring its hands and do something decisive to protect Canadian interests from these disturbing American actions.

Can the Prime Minister explain why his personal appeal to the U.S. president and the personal intervention of his trade minister have failed to produce any support for the Canadian position in Washington, thereby placing Canadian interests, jobs and trade at risk?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to see the hon. leader of the third party supporting our position. We have made all the representations we think are appropriate at this time.

The Minister of Foreign Affairs will talk with Mr. Christopher later this week. As Mr. Helms is good a friend of Mr. Gingrich, perhaps the leader of the third party could call Mr. Gingrich and ask the Republicans not to vote for that bill.

[Preston Manning, Reform, Calgary Southwest, AB]

Mr. Speaker, the protectionist speeches given in the American Congress are a carbon copy of those made by Mr. Turner and others in this country in 1988. Perhaps the Prime Minister could arrange for those speeches to be burned-

[Some hon. members]

Hear, hear.

[Preston Manning, Reform, Calgary Southwest, AB]

The actions the Prime Minister has mentioned here today, phone calls to the president, media releases, negotiations at the highest levels, are essentially political actions to deal with this problem.

When the government has taken the political route to dealing with trade disputes the U.S. has usually been the winner, as with the grain imports case. When Canada has used the practical and business like dispute settlement mechanism in NAFTA Canada has tended to be the winner.

Has the Prime Minister instructed his trade minister to launch an immediate challenge to the Helms-Burton bill under the dispute settlement mechanism of the NAFTA?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, the bill has not been passed. We should let the bill pass, see what the president will do with the bill and how it will be applied.

In terms of trade relations with the United States, we have done very well. At this moment we have the biggest surplus we have ever had with the United States.

The biggest trade relations in the world are between Canada and the United States and so there are always problems of this nature. We have been reasonably successful at resolving them. Sometimes we refer disputes to panels under the NAFTA. We might use this route if needed once the bill is passed. Then we will see the effects.

However, we have done what we can to this point. I am delighted that the leader of the Reform Party is supporting this government. I will send a copy of Hansard to Newt Gingrich.

[Preston Manning, Reform, Calgary Southwest, AB]

Mr. Speaker, it is quite evident why Canada's trade interests are not being properly represented. If the Prime Minister would go back to the NAFTA and read the dispute settlement mechanism he would see what it says: "The dispute settlement provisions of this chapter shall apply whenever a party considers that an actual or proposed measure of another party would be inconsistent with this agreement".

It is quite clear that the Helms-Burton bill in the American Congress is a proposed measure in violation of the NAFTA.

Why does the Prime Minister not direct his trade minister to file an application to the dispute settlement mechanism with respect to this bill?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, the bill not been passed yet.

When we formed the government there were 130 grievances between the two governments. The number is down to below 10 at this moment because we have done it in the proper fashion. We believe that if we have a civilized discussion with the Americans we will probably have a better result. Then it will be time to move if we feel we are going nowhere.

However, I do not think Canada will gain a lot in losing its cool.

Société Radio-Canada

[Gaston Leroux, Bloc, Richmond—Wolfe, QC]

Mr. Speaker, in 1990, the voice of Radio-Canada was silenced in the regions, and in 1996, if the government decides to eliminate advertising, as recommended by the Juneau report, the voice of Radio-Canada affiliates in Abitibi-Témiscamingue, eastern Quebec, the Saguenay-Lac Saint-Jean, the Mauricie and the Eastern Townships will be silenced.

My question is for the Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of Canadian Heritage. Since the recommendations of the Juneau report will likely result in the closure of Radio-Canada affiliates, will the Minister of Canadian Heritage categorically reject these proposals?

[Sheila Copps, Liberal, Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of Canadian Heritage]

Mr. Speaker, contrary to the request of the Bloc, we will not reject all the recommendations of the Juneau report, because there are good things in them. I would like the member opposite to get involved in a good debate to find ways to provide long term funding for Radio-Canada instead of dumping on the Juneau report.

[Gaston Leroux, Bloc, Richmond—Wolfe, QC]

Mr. Speaker, the three recommendations in the Juneau report are even identified by the report's author as the weakest ones.

Given that Radio-Canada's contract with its affiliates ends March 31, does the Minister of Canadian Heritage intend to calm the fears of the people in the affiliate stations by declaring a moratorium on the recommendations that affect them?

[Sheila Copps, Liberal, Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of Canadian Heritage]

Mr. Speaker, the member opposite's proposal is unreasonable. He is asking us to reject the recommendations of the Juneau report, when one of them was long term funding for Radio-Canada. Clearly I am not going to reject the recommendations of the report. I am in fact working to have it in effect shortly.

Canadian Sovereignty

[Bob Mills, Reform, Red Deer, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased the Prime Minister has learned to keep his cool.

It is an election year in the U.S. and it has decided Canada is an easy target for its bravado and bullying. Not only have Canadians had to put up with the Jesse Helms anti-Canadian rhetoric, but today on CBC a U.S. congressman said Canada had violated international law by imposing fees on the inside passage, which puts us in the same category as Cuba.

When will the Minister of Foreign Affairs stop allowing Canada to be a patsy to the bravado and bullying of foreign politicians and forcefully defend Canadian sovereignty on trade and on our territory?

[Lloyd Axworthy, Liberal, Minister of Foreign Affairs]

Mr. Speaker, I thought the hon. member had now spent sufficient time in politics to not get overly disturbed when the odd congressman, senator or other representatives find their way into the Canadian

media. They do not reflect the policy of the U.S. government or its administration.

Furthermore, we have made it very clear, as we have been doing for the past many years, that the inside waters are our waters and that there will be no payment to the United States of any compensation. Those waters are ours to determine what will happen within them.

[Bob Mills, Reform, Red Deer, AB]

Mr. Speaker, the government has caved in on softwood lumber. It has failed to stop the Helms-Burton bill and when the Americans unilaterally declared the B.C. inside passage to be international waters, the Liberal government, as we heard yesterday, simply sent a message. This is some defence of our sovereignty.

The Liberal red book said: "A Liberal government will end the Conservative's junior partnership relationship with the United States and reassert our proud tradition of independent foreign policy".

What happened between the writing of the red book and what we are observing now?

[Lloyd Axworthy, Liberal, Minister of Foreign Affairs]

Mr. Speaker, what seems to have happened is that the reform party was down holding hands and making sweet talk with the Republicans in the U.S. Congress and perhaps got the false impression that the entire Canadian public reflects the position of the Reform Party that there is no sovereignty in Canada.

The reality is that the Prime Minister has taken the lead in mobilizing Caribbean and Latin American countries. We have the European Union on our side. The Russians are on our side and countries around the world are on our side. We are leading the charge against the extraterritoriality of that bill. We just wish Reform would get on side.

Canadian Forces

[Jean-Marc Jacob, Bloc, Charlesbourg, QC]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the minister of defence.

Two days ago, the defence minister stated in this House that the suicide rate in the Canadian Forces is, and I quote: "about half the rate of Canadian society as a whole".

The reality is as follows: in the last four years on record, the Canadian average was 13.2 per 100,000 people, compared to more than 20 for the same number of people in the armed forces.

In light of these facts, does the minister still stand by the statement he made two days ago in this House denying any problem in the armed forces?

[David Collenette, Liberal, Minister of National Defence and Minister of Veterans Affairs]

Mr. Speaker, knowing the hon. member, he has been quite selective with the information he has presented to the House. I stand by what I said.

[Jean-Marc Jacob, Bloc, Charlesbourg, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I wish to tell the minister that the information I have comes from Lieutenant-General Paul Addy and was published by Le Devoir in April 1995.

The minister is still trying to play down this scourge. Will he finally give this problem the importance, the attention it requires?

[David Collenette, Liberal, Minister of National Defence and Minister of Veterans Affairs]

Mr. Speaker, I repeat, the incidence of suicide in the Canadian Armed Forces is about half that of the population as a whole. I would like to see the hon. member's data because I am sure they have not been correctly presented to the House.

What concerns me is the motive behind the hon. member's playing on the whole question of suicides in the armed forces as they play against the general population. I can only suspect this is another measure with which the Bloc Quebecois wants to destabilize Canada's military.

[The Speaker]

Neither in the questions nor in the answers should we attribute motives. I ask members to keep that in mind.