Debates of April 16th, 1996

Distinct Society

[Michel Bellehumeur, Bloc, Berthier—Montcalm, QC]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs.

As reported by the media, it is obvious that the new intergovernmental affairs minister was not consulted before the Quebec wing of the Liberal Party of Canada passed its new resolution replacing the notion of distinct society with a narrower concept which only recognizes Quebec as the principal homeland of French language, culture and legal tradition in North America.

How can the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs have any credibility during his Canada-wide tour, given that, at the first opportunity, the Prime Minister leaves him out of the discussions on the new constitutional resolution?

[Stéphane Dion, Liberal, President of the Queen's Privy Council for Canada and Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs]

Mr. Speaker, I have been wondering since yesterday whether or not the hon. member can read or hear. It is stated in the resolution-and I want to put it on the record, because the Prime Minister himself pointed it out yesterday-that the Liberal Party of Canada supports the enshrinement in the Constitution of the principles recognized in the parliamentary resolution passed in December 1995 defining the distinct society.

[Michel Bellehumeur, Bloc, Berthier—Montcalm, QC]

Mr. Speaker, the comment made by the minister applies to himself because he never answers the questions put to him, even though he is only starting his political career.

Does the minister realize that, by supporting the 1982 patriation of the Constitution and giving his unconditional support to this resolution, he is totally isolated in Quebec, since both the Quebec federalists and sovereignists are opposed to it?

[Stéphane Dion, Liberal, President of the Queen's Privy Council for Canada and Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs]

Mr. Speaker, I have little to say on that, except perhaps that this is wishful thinking on the part of the hon. member.

Somalia Inquiry

[Preston Manning, Reform, Calgary Southwest, AB]

Mr. Speaker, it is now reported that the Somalia inquiry has new memos that cast doubts on the military police investigation and the information commissioner's report on an attempted cover-up.

According to the commissioner, these investigations have not had all the relevant documents necessary to reach sound conclusions. The defence minister was very quick to trumpet the information commissioner's report when it appeared to clear General Boyle of any direct involvement in the Somalia cover-up but now the information commissioner has expressed concern that all the facts were not on the table.

Can the defence minister categorically state that General Boyle played no role whatsoever in DND's efforts to cover up Somalia documents?

[David Collenette, Liberal, Minister of National Defence and Minister of Veterans Affairs]

Mr. Speaker, the hon. member does not need me to state that. The general stated it himself last week very clearly. I can assure the hon. member that what the general said last week was absolutely correct and absolutely true.

I was somewhat concerned yesterday with what the counsel for the commission said with respect to documents. It gives us some concern. However, I think we should keep this in perspective because the department has provided about a half million pages worth of documents. Further documents were requested and those have been turned over.

Last week the chief of defence staff initiated a search unparalleled in national defence history. It bore great fruit because many documents did surface and were given to the inquiry.

If by Thursday the inquiry is still dissatisfied with the question of documentation and what it has available then it is within its mandate and its power to get to the bottom of what happened to the rest of the documents.

I would ask that after the inquiry sees the results of the further search by the department that it continues with its hearings and get to the bottom of things because that is what Canadians want. They want the truth to come out and only the inquiry will get to the bottom of it.

[Preston Manning, Reform, Calgary Southwest, AB]

Mr. Speaker, the minister moved very quickly from the discussion of General Boyle on to other subjects and yet General Boyle is at the heart of this controversy.

The public affairs branch of DND hatched an elaborate scheme to rename, hide and even destroy Somalia documents. General Boyle was the head of public affairs. The Somalia Inquiry Liaison Team, SILT, is accused of deliberate foot dragging and misleading commissioners. General Boyle was involved in SILT. The military wants to court martial Colonel Geoff Haswell who says that top soldiers knew of the cover-up. General Boyle is part of that military justice system. The defence minister's hand-picked chief of defence is up to his eyeballs in the Somalia affair.

Given all of this, will the defence minister ask his appointee, General Boyle, to step aside until the inquiry determines his role in the Somalia affair?

[David Collenette, Liberal, Minister of National Defence and Minister of Veterans Affairs]

Mr. Speaker, what is at the heart of this matter is justice and fairness for everybody in the Canadian Armed Forces and the Department of National Defence.

[Vic Althouse, NDP, Mackenzie, SK]

What about honesty?

[David Collenette, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

The leader of the Reform Party obviously does not know what justice and fairness means in Canada.

Justice and fairness means that everyone gets a chance to give his or her point of view in a setting that is impartial. The commission has decided to look at the documentation issue, including the public affairs issue, which will start next week.

Only then, after the chief of defence staff and everyone else has the ability to put the facts on the table, will Canadians be able to judge. We should not prejudge the matter on the floor of the House of Commons.

[Preston Manning, Reform, Calgary Southwest, AB]

Mr. Speaker, the minister talks a lot about justice and fairness and yet by siding with General Boyle he could very well be aiding and abetting a cover-up that prevents justice and fairness from being done. His hand-picked chief of defence is not an innocent bystander. He headed up public affairs at DND. He had a hand in the operations of SILT and he is the head of the military justice system. General Boyle cannot be impartial in a case in which he is both a witness and a suspect.

If the minister is committed to justice and impartiality, even the appearance of justice and impartiality, will he ask General Boyle, his hand-picked chief of defence staff, to step aside until the Somalia inquiry finishes its work?

[David Collenette, Liberal, Minister of National Defence and Minister of Veterans Affairs]

Mr. Speaker, if I heard the hon. member correctly, he made a blatant accusation against me that I am a party to a cover-up. Does he have evidence of that fact? If he has evidence of that fact then he should submit it to the inquiry.

This is what is wrong with the Reform Party and the approach that it is taking. It is slandering and libelling people here in the House of Commons under parliamentary immunity and not allowing the commission process to get at the heart of the matter. That is not what Canadians expect.

[Jean-Marc Jacob, Bloc, Charlesbourg, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of National Defence.

We heard yesterday that, in spite of the search within the defence, department, 20 per cent of all documents relating to the Canadian mission in Somalia are still missing.

While records of daily activities of the first commando were allegedly too damaged by sea water, key records of the second and third commandos are still missing.

After the wide search which cost taxpayers several million dollars and where some 100,000 employees of the defence department were mobilized to go through all their files with a fine-tooth comb, can the minister tell us what he intends to do to locate the files that are still missing?

[David Collenette, Liberal, Minister of National Defence and Minister of Veterans Affairs]

Mr. Speaker, I answered this question a little earlier. There has been an unprecedented search of DND files.

Half a million pages of documents have been sent to the commission. If, by Thursday, the commission is still dissatisfied, it is the commission's job and within its mandate to find out why the rest of those documents are not available.

The commission has to do its job. It has to analyse all the data and then come forward with recommendations, which the government will consider.

[Jean-Marc Jacob, Bloc, Charlesbourg, QC]

Mr. Speaker, beyond the cover-up operation, which is becoming increasingly obvious, and regardless of all the muddle and the incompetence surrounding the management of the Somalia issue, how can the minister justify to the population that such important documents have disappeared and are still nowhere to be found? Are we to expect another search?

[David Collenette, Liberal, Minister of National Defence and Minister of Veterans Affairs]

Mr. Speaker, the hon. member is basically repeating the earlier question. The commission will get to the bottom of the document issue. Let us wait to see what happens on Thursday. Let the commission do its job.

[Jim Hart, Reform, Okanagan—Similkameen—Merritt, BC]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of National Defence.

The minister has allowed cover-up to become a standard operating procedure at the Department of National Defence. Military police investigations have been compromised. Access to information documents have been consistently violated.

General Boyle, who is at the centre of the Somalia scandal, has been put in charge of the entire department. DND has been totally unco-operative with the inquiry.

The media knew there was a cover-up in the minister's department. The inquiry knew there was a cover-up in the minister's department. The Canadian public knew there was a cover-up in the minister's department.

How is it that the minister was not aware of the cover-up in the Department of National Defence?

[David Collenette, Liberal, Minister of National Defence and Minister of Veterans Affairs]

Mr. Speaker, Canadians want everyone in this Chamber to work together to find out the truth and not play partisan politics with this very difficult issue.

It is very difficult to take the member for Okanagan-Similkameen-Merritt seriously in his guise as the defence critic when he has been all over the map on this inquiry.

In October of last year he said that the commission is headed by top notch people and will come to conclusions. On April 2 he said that the inquiry should be shut down, that it had outlived its usefulness. This morning, he said that the commission is doing a fabulous job.

If the commission is doing a fabulous job, then let the commission ask all these questions of the relevant witnesses. Do not ask them every day in the House of Commons.

[Jim Hart, Reform, Okanagan—Similkameen—Merritt, BC]

Mr. Speaker, the Somalia commission is fed up with the cover-up by this minister's officials. The minister is no better.

According to commission counsel, the minister knew last October that key evidence was missing. He did not inform the inquiry until just recently. The minister deemed it unnecessary to proceed with that information.

Will the minister of defence acknowledge his responsibility for this cover-up, do the honourable thing and resign?

[David Collenette, Liberal, Minister of National Defence and Minister of Veterans Affairs]

Mr. Speaker, I do not need the hon. member to tell me about my responsibilities.

Once again, the hon. member has blatantly distorted the facts from yesterday's submission by the counsel for the Somalia inquiry. This is a pattern that this member follows for his own partisan ends.

This morning on "Canada A.M." he said, contrary to the facts, that the commission had asked the RCMP to look at the computer disk. I said yesterday that it was the department that brought in the RCMP to look at the computer disk.

Do not believe me because he does not believe me. Believe commission counsel, Simon Noël. When he was asked yesterday about who requested the RCMP to come in, it was the military police. This member is distorting the facts every day and that undermines the integrity of his questions.

[Gilles Duceppe, Bloc, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

Mr. Speaker, the Somalia affair is turning into an endless saga. First, we learned that documents had been tampered with or destroyed. Then, there was the great cover-up, which may have been masterminded by the chief of the defence staff himself. And then the whole army was mobilized and sent scrambling for lost documents. It has been the army's version of a treasure hunt. Twenty per cent of the documents are still missing, though. Nothing could be more ludicrous.

The minister of defence says that even worse could be expected. Does the minister have information or documents he has not handed over to the inquiry commission, for him to be saying that the worst is still to come?

[David Collenette, Liberal, Minister of National Defence and Minister of Veterans Affairs]

Mr. Speaker, these are just variations of earlier questions. I do not want to take the time of the House to repeat the answer at any great length.

The department has handed over thousands of pages of evidence that were required by the commission and were further requested. I am very concerned that the commission has said it is still dissatisfied. The department has been requested to make a statement on Thursday. It will make the statement. If the commission is still dissatisfied then it has the full power to find out what actually happened.

[Gilles Duceppe, Bloc, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

Mr. Speaker, we are making some progress. We now know the minister has not found anything because he has not concealed anything.

Since the minister is telling us that he has not concealed anything from the commission, let met ask him once more how he can tell us that the worst is still to come? What could be worse than what is already known?

[David Collenette, Liberal, Minister of National Defence and Minister of Veterans Affairs]

Mr. Speaker, this is a difficult problem for all Canadians. It is difficult for the Canadian Armed Forces. It is creating a considerable pall over the operations of the forces, over men and women who are serving with distinction every single day, whether at home or abroad. Because of certain incidents which occurred three years ago everybody has been smeared and tarnished.

To get at the truth, the government discharged the commitment made by my colleague the minister of fisheries when in opposition to put an inquiry in place.

I would ask in the spirit of fairness for the opposition to allow the commission to do its job.

[Bob Mills, Reform, Red Deer, AB]

Mr. Speaker, the pride and confidence of our military has been shaken, not only inside Canada but it is now being questioned internationally.

Colonel Geof Haswell has accused Canada's UN ambassador, among others, of instigating a cover-up, and I say a cover-up, in the Somali affair.

It is critical that those who were at the top in DND at the time these events occurred be brought back to Ottawa until these allegations are resolved.

Will the Minister of Foreign Affairs agree to recall Mr. Bob Fowler until all his testimony before the inquiry is complete and he has been cleared of these serious allegations?