Debates of April 22nd, 1996

Francophones Outside Quebec

[Jean-Paul Marchand, Bloc, Québec-Est, QC]

Mr. Speaker, as the government denies the endemic assimilation of francophones outside Quebec, the future of four francophone schools in Ottawa is at stake for lack of students. They include the école Sainte-Anne, the last remaining francophone primary school in Lower Town, a francophone bastion in Canada's capital.

My question is for the Minister of Canadian Heritage. When will the minister stop denying the problem of the assimilation of francophones in Canada, which leads to the disappearance of their most vital institutions, such as the last primary school in Lower Town?

[Sheila Copps, Liberal, Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of Canadian Heritage]

Mr. Speaker, I would first like to point out our interest at the hon. member's concern over education. This goes against the policy of his party, which says that education is a provincial matter.

I would first like to point out there are 60 schools under the school board for Ottawa-Carleton, including the one my daughter attends, along with école Gaston-Vincent, école Baribeau, école Cadieux, école des Pins, école des Villageois, école des Voyageurs, that are French language schools, and not immersion. Four of them are currently threatened with closure because of budget cuts.

Unfortunately, the Government of Ontario followed the example of the Government of Quebec, which announced cuts of $300 million in education on March 27. These cuts by the premier of Quebec are unfortunate. We also find most unfortunate the cuts made by the Government of Ontario, but we respect its jurisdiction over education, which is, as the Bloc Quebecois policy provides, a matter of provincial jurisdiction.

[Jean-Paul Marchand, Bloc, Québec-Est, QC]

Mr. Speaker, the federal government has interfered in provincial matters frequently and on a number of issues, but the minister is denying the assimilation of francophones in Canada in her response, and no one dare deny this assimilation when it is occurring at the rate of 30 per cent in the Canada's capital.

We must have francophone schools, but Sainte-Anne is closing. It is a fact that English predominates in the federal public service. Francophones must use English in the public service.

Will the minister acknowledge that her government is therefore practicing a policy of assimilation leading to the disappearance of the francophone community in the heart of the nation's capital?

[Sheila Copps, Liberal, Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of Canadian Heritage]

Mr. Speaker, in response to his question, I told the member that there are currently 60 French language schools in the Ottawa-Carleton region. Thirty years ago, there was no francophone school board in Ottawa-Carleton.

His questions are almost as logical as his comments today-the member is weeping crocodile tears. Assimilation is about as logical as the comment: "One of the reasons I became a sovereignist was because of the threat of assimilation".

Does he really think that a policy of separating francophones in Quebec from those in the rest of Canada will keep the country bilingual? The exact opposite is true. This is why we have 23 francophone members and senators from outside Quebec here. This is why Canada is on its way to becoming a country for everyone.

Goods And Services Tax

[Jim Silye, Reform, Calgary Centre, AB]

Mr. Speaker, in opposition the Liberals promised to kill, scrap and abolish the GST because it was a bad tax. The Prime Minister knows there are a lot of quotes to prove that.

In government the Liberals are proposing to spend $1 billion to hide this bad tax, to reward with federal kickbacks those Liberal governments that help to hide it, to charge off the billion dollar cost to the seven provinces that do not want it, and finally to punish those MPs that stand in the way of hiding it by dismissal from caucus because they remind the government of its election promise.

Is the Prime Minister now satisfied that by his disciplinary actions he has muzzled other Liberal backbenchers to keep silent on his government's GST promise?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, this party had a program and probably all the candidates read it before they ran. If they had stopped on page 22 they would have seen that we were talking about simplification and harmonization. That is what is written.

Four provincial governments have opted for harmonization. The first government was Quebec. Now there are three more and the others are looking into it.

I can read to the hon. member what the Regina Leader Post is recommending to the Saskatchewan government. It states: ``-would be well advised to rethink its opposition to a harmonized tax. Its concerns are not insurmountable, nor do they outweigh the potential benefits of harmonization, such as reduction in the cost of doing business and operating government in Saskatchewan, thus

improving the business climate and, in the long run, likely generate new jobs and revenue sources".

That is the opinion of a very important newspaper in Saskatchewan. That makes a lot of sense. A lot of people will find that our approach is a very good one.

[Jim Silye, Reform, Calgary Centre, AB]

Mr. Speaker, quote: "I want the tax dead". That was the Liberal leader in opposition, the right hon. Prime Minister. That appeared in the Montreal Gazette of September 27, 1990.

Now that the Prime Minister has made an example out of the member for York South-Weston in order to keep the rest of his caucus in line, let me remind him of another promise which he and his party made in opposition.

Liberal MPs opposed taxing reading material when the GST was imposed by the Tories. They promised to remove the tax on books. Now they are proposing double digit taxation on reading with their piecemeal, half-hearted effort with three Atlantic provinces on harmonization.

When will the Liberal government meet this promise? Where is the Prime Minister on this promise?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, I would repeat to the hon. member that at the time we opposed the GST and we still oppose it. We argued in this House that it would be two systems of taxes with two different types of reports. It is very complicated for the consumers and for the the business people who had to report. There would be two sets of books, two sets of inspectors and so on.

We argued against this complication in the tax system. We always talked about harmonization. At the time of the election we put it in writing on page 22 of the red book. It is very easy to verify and we stand by what is written in the red book.

French Speaking Members Of Thearmed Forces In Moose Jaw

[Suzanne Tremblay, Bloc, Rimouski—Témiscouata, QC]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of National Defence.

In a recent study, the official languages commissioner concluded that anglophone members of the armed forces based in Bagotville had access to impeccable services in their own language, whereas French speaking soldiers based in Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan, were deprived of essential services in French such as health care and education.

Will the Minister of National Defence follow up on the commissioner's recommendation and establish a detailed plan to meet the needs of francophone members of the armed forces in Moose Jaw before May 31, 1996?

[David Collenette, Liberal, Minister of National Defence and Minister of Veterans Affairs]

Mr. Speaker, we are giving serious consideration to the commissioner's recommendations. We hope to be able to establish the same standards across the country.

I have visited Bagotville and I would certainly concur with what the hon. member said in terms of the availability of standards affecting both linguistic groups and services.

I have also visited the Moose Jaw base in western Canada and I have not been directly informed of some of the things of which the commissioner apparently has been made aware.

We try to make sure that no matter what language is spoken by members of the forces that obviously they are entitled to all of the services, priorities and prerequisites that all Canadians have no matter what language they speak. If improvements have to be made we will certainly put them in place.

[Suzanne Tremblay, Bloc, Rimouski—Témiscouata, QC]

Mr. Speaker, it is really unfortunate that, every time something goes wrong, this minister is always the last to know about it. There have been six complaints in Moose Jaw. I find it strange that when he went to Bagotville, he was told that everything was fine for anglophones but when he went to Moose Jaw, he was not told about the difficult situation faced by francophones there. I will not repeat the speech made by my colleague about assimilation, but that is how it happens, especially when a minister does not even care about the situation of the minority in Saskatchewan.

I do not want a vague answer to my question, I want a straight answer. Does the minister intend to ensure that francophone members of the armed forces in Moose Jaw have access to a French school as soon as possible?

[David Collenette, Liberal, Minister of National Defence and Minister of Veterans Affairs]

Mr. Speaker, obviously the member has not heard my answer. I am very concerned about the problems of access to services in both official languages across the country.

With respect to education services, as the hon. member knows, under agreements that have been coming into effect that were signed by the previous government, the Department of National Defence is now handing over education to the various provinces. When we do this we try to ensure that linguistic minorities are dealt with fairly.

As I said in the earlier response, we are looking for improvements. I assure the hon. member we will make those improvements so she will be satisfied.

Telecommunications

[Robert Bertrand, Liberal, Pontiac—Gatineau—Labelle, QC]

Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Industry.

My constituents informed me of their frustrations with the services they are getting from the signal providers for their dish antenna systems.

Could the Minister assure my constituents that the problem with satellite dishes will be solved without them having to pay a lot more money?

[John Manley, Liberal, Minister of Industry]

Mr. Speaker, I can tell my colleague that the technology used to have provide broadcasting services changes very rapidly at the present time. Most service providers are now switching to digital technology, which does not work with existing satellite dishes.

There might be a potential problem for consumers. The sale of satellite dishes, used to receive television signals, is not regulated by the federal government. With any high technology equipment, consumers must examine their options very carefully before they buy. This is very important.

Goods And Services Tax

[Chuck Strahl, Reform, Fraser Valley East, BC]

Mr. Speaker, when the GST was introduced by the Tories in 1990, the Liberals of the day argued for a free vote. They said that the Prime Minister, Brian Mulroney, had promised more free votes in the House of Commons. The Tories said that they could not allow a free vote because it was a money measure. Of course the Liberals were outraged, or they feigned outrage, at this kind of response.

The current Prime Minister will not allow a free vote on another similar measure, and he kicks people out of the caucus.

Many Canadians, especially one from York South-Weston, would like to know the answer to this question: Since the Liberals deplored this kind of iron-fisted discipline while in opposition, what happened to them when they formed the government?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, we have dozens of free votes in the House of Commons that did not exist before.

[Jim Abbott, Reform, Kootenay East, BC]

No, you do not; not one free vote.

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Saint-Maurice, QC]

We have dozens of free votes in the House of Commons.

When a bill is by a private member, it is a bill presented to the Parliament of Canada. These bills will change the laws of Canada. We have accepted a lot of free votes, even with ministers splitting on some votes. We have never seen that before.

I am satisfied with the experiment. I think it was good and did not cause too many problems. We might have them on other occasions. We had free votes before on capital punishment and abortion. We had free votes on problems of morality or moral decisions.

When it is a question of confidence in the government, government members have to support the government which has helped them to get elected.

[The Speaker]

May I encourage you both when a question is being asked and when an answer is being given because it is a bit difficult for me to hear all the words. I know you will co-operate by letting me hear both the question and the answer.

[Chuck Strahl, Reform, Fraser Valley East, BC]

Mr. Speaker, when the current Deputy Speaker was kicked out of the Tory caucus for voting against the party line, he said that the Conservative Party was so undemocratic that it would make General Noriega blush.

This Liberal government promised Canadians that if it was elected it would be different, that Canadians would finally get MPs who were free to represent the wishes of the constituents that elected them. Why did the Liberals lie to Canadians?

[The Speaker]

I would like the hon. member to withdraw the word lie.

[Chuck Strahl, Reform, Fraser Valley East, BC]

Mr. Speaker, why did the government misinform the Canadian people?

[The Speaker]

Very simply I would like you to please withdraw the word lie.

[Chuck Strahl, Reform, Fraser Valley East, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I withdraw that word. Is it true that the government's idea of a free vote is that it is free as long as the dictatorial Liberal Party says it is free?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, when it is a confidence vote in the government, it is a confidence vote in the government. It was discussed in caucus last Wednesday and the views of the member were clear.

The member for York South-Weston had a bill in the House on which we permitted a free vote. However, a question of confidence

in the government is something else. He could have waited and on a specific bill he could have voted against the government.

When it is a lack of confidence in the whole program of the government, it is because you do not belong to that government any more.