Debates of June 17th, 1996

Tribute To Claude Coulombe

[Suzanne Tremblay, Bloc, Rimouski—Témiscouata, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I wish to pay tribute to Claude Coulombe, a 19-year old student from the Rimouski-Neigette training centre who accumulates prizes in auto mechanics. He was second in the contest run by the La Neigette school board, first in the regional olympics held in Carleton, and second at the provincial selection. On May 4, Mr. Coulombe won the gold medal at the Canadian olympiad for professional and technical training.

Students from Alberta, Manitoba, British Columbia, Ontario and Quebec participated in the event, which was essentially a series of practical tests to evaluate the technical knowledge of the candidates and their ability to accurately diagnose problems.

In the fall of 1997, Mr. Coulombe will travel to Saint-Gall, in Switzerland, to take part in the world trades olympiad. I extend my warm congratulations to him and I wish him the best of success.

The Environment

[Charles Caccia, Liberal, Davenport, ON]

Mr. Speaker, the United Nations has proclaimed June 17 world day to combat desertification.

Desertification results from changes in climate, the deterioration of vegetation due to over exploitation, over grazing, deforestation and burning, through wind and water erosion due to poor cultivation practices.

Desertification is more serious in Africa and Asia, but is also impacting our prairies. In 1995, Canada ratified the UN Convention to Combat Desertification. The convention commits supporters to provide resources for programs and projects designed to halt and, hopefully, reverse the expansion of deserts. These efforts are urgently needed if we are to ensure the productivity of lands and forests for future generations.

Race Car Driver Jacques Villeneuve

[Eleni Bakopanos, Liberal, Saint-Denis, QC]

Mr. Speaker, the race for the Canadian Formula One Grand Prix took place at Circuit Gilles-Villeneuve on Montreal's Île Notre-Dame before over 100,000 spectators, who crowded the full length of the track to cheer their hero.

At only 25 and in his first year of Formula One racing, Jacques Villeneuve won second place and was by far the crowd favourite. It was an emotional time for Montrealers who saw the son of their legend, Gilles Villeneuve, racing on the track named after his father, on Father's Day.

Jacques Villeneuve has truly earned the affection of Canadians and Quebecers, and we hope that he will continue to race with the same intensity and enthusiasm that have characterized his career from the beginning. He is a model for Quebecers and Canadians of our generation.

March Against Poverty

[Geoff Regan, Liberal, Halifax West, NS]

Mr. Speaker, on May 14, two women's marches against poverty began, one in the west and one in the east. They converged Saturday on Parliament Hill.

This march was about freedom, freedom from violence, freedom from poverty, freedom from joblessness. These are not partisan issues, nor are they strictly gender issues. Women's issues affect men and families no matter what the political persuasion.

I applaud the organizers for the very successful march and for working on issues that are important to all Canadians.

World Desertification Day

[Philippe Paré, Bloc, Louis-Hébert, QC]

Mr. Speaker, some 100 countries, 80 of them developing, are facing the consequences of desertification, which results from non-sustainable soil use practices. As a result, 900 million people may be affected by this ecological disaster, which leads to famine and population shifts.

The United Nations has declared June 17 World Desertification Day. This decision is one of the follow-ups to the Rio Conference held in June 1992. Subsequent international negotiations resulted in the United Nations Convention to Combat Desertification. To date, it has been ratified by 29 of 115 signatory countries, including Canada. But this convention must be ratified by 50 countries before it can come into force.

On this World Desertification Day, I urge the Government of Canada to assume a leadership role vis-à-vis other countries so that this convention can come into force as quickly as possible.

Public Service Cutbacks

[Jay Hill, Reform, Prince George—Peace River, BC]

Mr. Speaker, Canadians in northern and isolated communities have had it.

While people in southern cities can walk a few blocks to talk to a human resources officer in person, people in rural communities spend literally hours trying to get through on understaffed 1-800 lines that are supposed to give them superior service.

Five CECs were just closed in my riding. Under the new UI rules, people will have to work longer to qualify for fewer benefits, but their questions go unanswered because the phones ring busy.

Desperate pensioners who cannot pay their rent because of lost cheques call my office because all they get is a busy signal on the OAS line. Single mothers struggling to make ends meet cannot get their questions answered because the child tax benefit line is clogged.

In its downsizing wisdom, this government kept upper management and cut the front line workers. Rural Canadians are willing to sacrifice to get us out of debt, but at least hire enough workers to

man the 1-800 lines. Northerners are tired of being left out in the cold.

March Against Poverty

[Jean Augustine, Liberal, Etobicoke—Lakeshore, ON]

Mr. Speaker, this weekend women from across Canada completed a journey that brought them to Ottawa with a message of jobs, justice and equality. Today the National Action Committee on the Status of Women brought their voices to parliamentarians.

The message these grassroots women's organizations bring to government is essential in the development of legislation that will strengthen gender equality and alleviate the poverty in which many women now live.

At the Beijing women's conference last year, it was agreed that there is a role for non-governmental organizations and women's groups to work with their governments to bring gender related issues to the fore. The government is working diligently to address the issues of poverty, unemployment, inequality and is working hard to integrate the needs of women into all future policy and legislation.

Having just returned from the UN Habitat II Conference, I consider this commitment of NGOs and governments to work together is our greatest strength. I praise the commitment of all women here today as we continue to work together in partnership to achieve greater gender equality.

Status Of Women

[Nick Discepola, Liberal, Vaudreuil, QC]

Mr. Speaker, this past weekend, thousands of women and men came together on Parliament Hill to celebrate the incredible undertaking of several dozen women who crossed this country to deliver an important message to our government.

The march started in Vancouver on May 14 to raise the awareness of all governments in this country about the importance of taking concrete action to put an end to the social and economic problems which affect women in particular.

A number of measures taken by us since our election are focussed on that objective. We are determined to do everything necessary to raise the awareness of provincial governments and to invite them to work along with us in meeting the legitimate expectations these Canadian women have made known to us during this great march.

Bravo to all the participants!

First Ministers' Conference

[Michel Gauthier, Bloc, Leader of the Opposition]

Mr. Speaker, at the first ministers' conference, the federal government will be proposing its so-called new philosophy to renew Canadian federalism, that is step by step, bit by bit.

My question is, of course, for the Prime Minister. Is it the intention of the federal government to offer full, total and unconditional financial compensation with respect to all areas of provincial jurisdiction from which it intends to withdraw soon?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, we are withdrawing from areas of provincial jurisdiction and, when we spend money for certain programs in certain circumstances, we will offer money as is the case for manpower and active measures.

The discussion will be at the ministerial level, but I am very happy to see that the opposition realizes we are going to improve the federation and that we will withdraw from fields we were in previously. I hope all the provinces will be very happy with this.

[Michel Gauthier, Bloc, Leader of the Opposition]

Mr. Speaker, any pleasure the Prime Minister may take at the opposition's acknowledging his improvement of the federation is pure presumption on his part. Given his past record, we have no illusions as to his intentions. I am sorry to have to hurt him, but I must speak the truth.

Will the Prime Minister acknowledge that the only acceptable way to withdraw from areas of provincial jurisdiction is to accompany the withdrawal with a transfer of tax points so that the provinces may carry out their own responsibilities fully, completely and autonomously as provided in the agreements signed by the Lesage and Pearson governments?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, when we withdraw from the programs mentioned in my letter to the premiers, the Leader of the Opposition will have to acknowledge that, despite his predictions, I will be obliged to make him retract what he has just said. I will do it very gently; I would not want to cause the Leader of the Opposition any problem.

As to the forms of compensation, take unemployment insurance as an example. It cannot be by tax points in this case, because it is the employers and employees throughout Canada that contribute to the fund. This money is then redirected to those in Canada who are not working. This must be a direct transfer and not tax points, because the amounts will necessarily vary with the level of unemployment in different parts of Canada. We never know the exact amount from one year to the next. A situation may be

disastrous in one province today and then quickly improve, or deteriorate in another part of Canada.

This is why we have this means of redistributing wealth across the country to those who need it. It has to be a direct transfer and not tax points to ensure the flexibility needed.

[Michel Gauthier, Bloc, Leader of the Opposition]

Mr. Speaker, the Prime Minister is taking the position of defender of Canadian taxpayers, and yet he is taking $5 billion out of the unemployment insurance fund provided by workers and employers and he is applying this money to his deficit and wants us to consider this the standard in defending people's interests? Oh, come on.

Will the Prime Minister acknowledge that he is preparing to negotiate at the conference a partial and conditional withdrawal of his government from areas of jurisdiction that already belong to the provinces as he jumps with both feet into other areas of provincial jurisdiction, such as securities?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, first, under the Constitution, unemployment is the responsibility of the Canadian government. There is no doubt of this. There was a constitutional amendment on this point in 1947 or 1949. It is our jurisdiction, and we share revenues with the provinces.

The unemployment insurance deficit, when we took over the government, was over $6 billion. We have reduced the deficit and now it makes good sense to build up a surplus for those days when we will need one to pay employment insurance to people who need it. This is simply good management.

As to providing a Canadian securities commission at the request of the provinces, I think, at least I hope that most of the provinces will want to participate in it, because it will mean investors will have far fewer forms than 10 or 12 to complete in order to obtain approval to sell bonds. With the broad flexibility I represent, any province not wishing to participate may do so.

[Michel Bellehumeur, Bloc, Berthier—Montcalm, QC]

Mr. Speaker, how nice to see the Prime Minister concerned about respect for his own areas of jurisdiction when he does not respect those of the provinces.

In fact, when the Prime Minister says he wants to withdraw from provincial areas of jurisdiction, he knows full well that any federal withdrawal without an unconditional transfer of the appropriate financial resources is nothing but a smoke screen.

Will the Prime Minister admit that, whatever the administrative agreements he can negotiate with the provinces, as long as the federal government can set national standards and keep its hands on the money, it will impose its conditions in areas that are not under its jurisdiction?

[Stéphane Dion, Liberal, President of the Queen's Privy Council for Canada and Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs]

Mr. Speaker, the provinces' financial weight compared to that of the federal government has not stopped growing since the 1960s.

Does the book Option Québec by René Lévesque mean something to the official opposition? This book refers to a conference given by Jacques Parizeau in the late sixties, in which Mr. Parizeau said about the decentralization process then starting in Canada: ``This goes too far. This decentralization will go too far, and this country will become unmanageable. Quebec must get out of it''.

This is how the problem should be put: "Are we too decentralized?" I do not think so. Can the decentralization process be improved? I think so. But this so-called centralized federation is a chimera that only today's independentist leaders are trying to sell people; that term is inaccurate.

[Michel Bellehumeur, Bloc, Berthier—Montcalm, QC]

Mr. Speaker, will the Prime Minister admit that this gradual decentralization relegating the provinces to the role of onlookers amounts to bringing in through the back door the Charlottetown accord, which called for the federal government to withdraw from some areas of provincial jurisdiction, but only on certain conditions?

[Stéphane Dion, Liberal, President of the Queen's Privy Council for Canada and Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs]

Mr. Speaker, we already answered, in relation to job training, that there must be an effective partnership between the federal government and the provinces in an area that concerns both the provinces, through job training, and the federal government, through unemployment insurance and the economic union.

As for the other areas, what is the hon. member talking about? Where are the conditions attached to social housing? The federal government is withdrawing from this area. In tourism, there is a partnership that works very well but that could possibly be improved. What area could we mention, in fact? Forestry? Recreation? Mining? The federal government is withdrawing from all these areas without any conditions. What is the hon. member talking about?

Airbus

[Stephen Harper, Reform, Calgary West, AB]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Justice and concerns the Airbus affair.

On Thursday past, in response to a question from the member for Fraser Valley East, the minister stated categorically: "I take responsibility for the Department of Justice. From the outset the Department of Justice has acted in an appropriate manner".

Since the minister maintains that justice officials, including Kimberley Prost, acted in an entirely appropriate fashion, will he instruct his lawyers not to make an out of court deal with Brian Mulroney and not to spend millions of taxpayer dollars?

[Allan Rock, Liberal, Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada]

Mr. Speaker, we are defending the litigation brought against the Government of Canada. We intend to continue in that defence. We will put forward all the defences we have pleaded and we will do our best to establish them in the courtroom. That is our intention and that is the course we are on.

[Stephen Harper, Reform, Calgary West, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I understand from that answer that the government is not interested in an out of court settlement but will go to court.

Will the minister concede that he has said all along, as has the Prime Minister, that this is a police investigation, that the police initiated it and that the police must not be interfered with in their work? Will he concede that he should instruct his lawyers not to make an out of court deal with Brian Mulroney so the police may continue their investigation without interference from the minister or his lawyers?

[Allan Rock, Liberal, Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada]

Mr. Speaker, the police of course must continue whatever work they want to do unaffected by politicians.

The police investigation is separate from the civil litigation commenced by Mr. Mulroney in which he alleges defamation, and the hon. member will know that.

I have made it clear we have filed defences in the civil litigation and we are defending that action.

[Stephen Harper, Reform, Calgary West, AB]

Mr. Speaker, the minister knows the suit is also against the RCMP.

The Minister of Justice said Friday, quoting from Hansard : ``I shall report significant developments to the House when they occur''. We are obviously very concerned that the government is planning to make a settlement and pay Brian Mulroney millions, because of its incompetence, during the summer while the House is not sitting.

Will the government fulfil its commitment and make a commitment that when there are any significant developments, including an out of court settlement, it will recall the House to make sure the House can examine the deal?

[Allan Rock, Liberal, Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada]

Mr. Speaker, the hon. member ought never to doubt that I am accountable to the House as a member of the government and that the government is accountable to the House.

The hon. member should also know, as I have made clear, we are defending the litigation.

First Ministers' Conference

[Francine Lalonde, Bloc, Mercier, QC]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Prime Minister.

In his letter informing his provincial counterparts of the agenda for the first ministers' conference, the Prime Minister wrote: "The afternoon session will focus on the social aspects of our policies and programs, and in particular on preserving a viable and sustainable social security system for Canadians". But we are far from having a social security system in Canada as it is.

Are we to understand from what he wrote that, far from withdrawing from provincial areas of jurisdiction, the Prime Minister is set to step right into the whole social programs area and take it over, even though transfer payments to the provinces have been cut drastically?