Debates of Sept. 16th, 1996

Job Creation

[Suzanne Tremblay, Bloc, Rimouski—Témiscouata, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I would point out to the Prime Minister that all the figures cited by the Leader of the Opposition come from Statistics Canada and not from the Bloc Quebecois and that when it comes to giving contracts to Ontario, there are no calls for tender, as in the case of the armoured vehicles.

The federal government is spending over one and a half billion dollars a year on research in its federal laboratories and research centres. It is admitted, however, again according to Statistics Canada, that Quebec has never received its fair share of federal government research and development investments.

In federal laboratories and research centres, the spending deficit in Quebec has gone on for over 15 years and, according to Statistics Canada, for 1993-94 alone, only 15 per cent of spending took place in Quebec, as opposed to 59.1 per cent in Ontario. Does the Prime Minister realize that it is policies like this that create unemployment in Quebec?

[Morris Bodnar, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of Industry]

Mr. Speaker, the province of Quebec generally in the area of research and development receives approximately 27 per cent of the funds from the federal government.

Apart from the national capital area, the city of Montreal receives more funds than most other areas in Canada for research and development. They are getting their fair share in Quebec. For a province that has a population of approximately 30 per cent, it receives approximately the same amount in research money.

[Suzanne Tremblay, Bloc, Rimouski—Témiscouata, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I am not allowed to show the papers I have on my desk, but they come from Statistics Canada, and they say that 15 per cent goes to Quebec and 59.1 per cent goes to Ontario, to research centres in the national capital, and that 90 per cent of spending takes place in Ottawa. To my knowledge, Ottawa has not yet moved to Quebec.

Does the Prime Minister admit that Quebec's annual shortfall of $152 million in federal laboratories and research centres is contributing to the unemployment problem, depriving the Quebec economy of close to 1,000 steady and meaningful jobs in leading sectors, and weakening our ability to create steady and meaningful jobs?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, I would point out to the hon. member that one third of the public servants working for the federal government in the National Capital Region come from the Quebec side. Here, the national capital straddles both sides of the river, and government spending is worked out not by streets, but by regions.

Since one third are here in the region, very often contracts are shown as belonging to Ontario, but one third of those who benefit are Quebecers. If an honest division is done, Quebec receives at least a share equal to its population.

Department Of National Defence

[Preston Manning, Reform, Calgary Southwest, AB]

Mr. Speaker, all the evidence presented to the Somalia inquiry indicates gross mismanagement at the top of the Department of National Defence, yet Canadians have seen General Boyle blaming subordinates and passing the buck instead of taking full responsibility. Then they watched the Minister of National Defence strongly endorse his hand picked chief of defence staff even before General Boyle had completed his evasive testimony.

At the same time, both of these people, the Minister of National Defence and the chief of defence staff, maintain that they enjoy the full confidence of the government and the Prime Minister.

Do the minister and the chief of defence staff have the complete support and confidence of the Prime Minister, yes or no?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, we are happy to see the leader of the third party with a new haircut. We hope he will also cut his policies according to new needs. I guess he really wanted to be different from the leader of the Conservative Party.

The Minister of National Defence has a job to do. General Boyle has a job to do. The Somalia inquiry has a job to do. Let them do their jobs. I have confidence in the Minister of National Defence and in General Boyle.

[Preston Manning, Reform, Calgary Southwest, AB]

Mr. Speaker, the Prime Minister is probably the only one with confidence in the defence minister and the chief of defence staff.

He is aware that these individuals do not have the confidence of the rank and file of Canadian Armed Forces personnel. Major General Addy made that perfectly clear just hours after hanging up his career uniform. They certainly do not have the confidence of the Canadian public, which many of us have found out in visiting with our constituents.

Will the Prime Minister explain to the House why he continues to have confidence in the Minister of National Defence when the Canadian public and the armed forces personnel do not?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, the Minister of National Defence has taken on a very difficult task. We are in a period of readjustment in military expenditures of the government. We have been obliged to reduce bases, reduce the number of personnel and reduce by many billions of dollars the expenditures in the Department of National Defence. It is always an extremely difficult job.

When I appointed the Minister of National Defence I warned him it was to be a difficult period. He has done an excellent job in extremely difficult circumstances during the last three years. I encourage him to stay in his job and keep doing what he is doing. He is doing a good job.

[Preston Manning, Reform, Calgary Southwest, AB]

Mr. Speaker, evasion and doing nothing seem to be the Prime Minister's answer to every difficult problem.

He has done nothing to roll back the national debt, which will to hit $600 billion in a few weeks. He has done nothing to provide Canadians with much needed tax relief. He has done nothing on national unity except hand out free flags. He is doing nothing now to restore the morale of the Canadian Armed Forces or the confidence of people in their own military.

Will the Prime Minister do something? Will he act to restore some integrity and accountability in the Canadian Armed Forces by asking General Boyle and the Minister of National Defence to resign?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, for the first time in a long time a government has had the courage to ask for an inquiry into the operations of national defence. Never has it been done before. Of course we knew it would be difficult. It is being done. The inquiry is proceeding. We want the inquiry to finish the job.

In the meantime, the Minister of National Defence and General Boyle have to operate the armed forces, and they are doing it to the satisfaction of the government.

[Pierre Brien, Bloc, Témiscamingue, QC]

Mr. Speaker, my question is directed to the Minister of National Defence.

Criticism is coming in from all directions. We see soldiers, officers and even retired generals publicly criticizing, from within

and from without, the chief of staff of the Canadian armed forces. The critics are unanimous. General Boyle is no longer trusted by anyone, and we do not have to wait for the report to know that.

How can the minister justify his stubborn insistence on keeping a chief of staff whom no one trusts? What is behind all this?

[David Collenette, Liberal, Minister of National Defence and Minister of Veterans Affairs]

Mr. Speaker, the Prime Minister has essentially answered the question with respect to the chief of defence staff and myself.

It is very important to realize that, as the Prime Minister said, we have initiated an inquiry. It is something we called for when we were in opposition with respect to the deployment of the Canadian Airborne Regiment in Somalia in 1993. We have discharged our promise to the Canadian people by having that inquiry take place.

We have to respect the process we now have put in place. It is not right to look at evidence in isolation, to judge individuals in isolation. We have to look at the entire process.

I have faith in the three individuals leading the inquiry that they will come to judgments. They will find the truth. That is what we want, that is what the Canadian people want.

[Pierre Brien, Bloc, Témiscamingue, QC]

Mr. Speaker, my supplementary is directed to the Prime Minister.

While the government is waiting, there is a major crisis of confidence in the Canadian armed forces. The Minister of National Defence desperately insists on protecting his creature, General Boyle.

This has been going on for more than a hundred days. Does the Prime Minister realize it is now up to him, and no one else, to deal with the problem? What is he waiting for to ask for the resignation of the minister and General Boyle?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, we have a commission of inquiry that is doing its job at this moment.

As I said earlier, the Minister of National Defence is doing a difficult job. It is his duty to do so. General Boyle, who took charge of the situation at a very difficult time for the armed forces, is doing his job as he must. And he must continue to do so. We should let the commission of inquiry get on with its job. As soon as we get the report from the commission, we will be able to see what happened, what is wrong and what action is required.

Today, the Canadian armed forces have been substantially downsized. Bases have been closed. There has been a considerable reduction in the number of officers at headquarters. We use to have more than 100 generals, and now we have about 30 less. Some have to leave, and this will continue.

When someone leaves a post like that, it is not unusual for him to complain. Unfortunately, the armed forces have been downsized, and it is always difficult when we have to downsize any organization, especially the armed forces.

[Jim Hart, Reform, Okanagan—Similkameen—Merritt, BC]

Mr. Speaker, the Prime Minister said today that the Minister of National Defence undertook a very difficult task, and indeed he did. The Minister of National Defence, after all, oversaw the policy of containment of access to information documents. General Boyle implemented a policy of containment. The policy was designed to mislead the media, to withhold the information from the public and to destroy key evidence.

Was the Minister of National Defence a pawn or a player in this scheme, or did Boyle do it on his own?

[David Collenette, Liberal, Minister of National Defence and Minister of Veterans Affairs]

Mr. Speaker, I find it very troubling that the hon. member, who alleges his party was happy to have this inquiry established, is now reflecting on testimony that has been given before the inquiry, coming to conclusions and raising them here in the House of Commons.

I believe this shows that he and his colleagues are not really respecting due process. I am sure he would not want us or the Canadian people to believe that he is in fact interfering in the very process that he applauded when it was set up.

[Jim Hart, Reform, Okanagan—Similkameen—Merritt, BC]

Mr. Speaker, the Minister of National Defence insults those Canadians who have served in the Canadian Armed Forces. He insults those who have died for our country at Dieppe and Vimy Ridge and the battle of Ypres. He insults those who have spent 50 years fighting for peace in our country.

Morale in the Canadian Armed Forces has suffered under this Minister of National Defence and General Boyle. Our forces deserve leadership of the highest calibre. Instead they get unethical conduct driven by a policy authorized by this minister, there is no responsibility, no accountability.

My question is for the Prime Minister. Canadians are calling for the minister and General Boyle to be fired. What is the Prime Minister going to do about it?

[David Collenette, Liberal, Minister of National Defence and Minister of Veterans Affairs]

Mr. Speaker, I am not going to lower myself to answer the ribald comments of the hon. member.

I want to take a minute to try to put this in context. Canada is not alone in dealing with problems with respect to the military following the end of the cold war. The Dutch have had to deal with the tragedy in Srebrenica. My friends in the United States have had to deal with problems within the navy. In Britain there are problems with the decommissioning of historic institutions, of structures. In Germany, it is the incorporation of a foreign army within the German army.

All of this has a common thread that Canada shares. In this changing world there is a need to redefine missions, to readjust one's priorities, readjust one's spending and also to adapt to the changing norms and values of contemporary society.

The Canadian forces are doing that, our allies are doing that.

[Jean H. Leroux, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Prime Minister.

The Prime Minister and the Minister of National Defence are telling us today that they have nothing to hide about the ongoing crisis in the Canadian armed forces. They are now trying to hide the truth by requesting an injunction aimed at muzzling the Information Commissioner in order to prevent him from releasing a damning report on the issue of access to information.

How can the Prime Minister trust a minister who is involved in an action aimed at muzzling by all possible means those who criticize the way our armed forces are managed?

[David Collenette, Liberal, Minister of National Defence and Minister of Veterans Affairs]

Mr. Speaker, the hon. member is referring to an ongoing court case.

I have to be very wary about what I say. This case cannot be construed in any way as an attempt by the Department of National Defence or the government to deny the public its right to information.

The court challenge, which is now before the Federal Court, is what we believe to be about the inalienable rights of employees of the government to fair treatment, a right enjoyed and expected by all Canadians.

To ensure that an individual employee of ours, the Government of Canada, is not unfairly and irredeemably harmed, we are having this matter fully adjudicated by the courts. I think we should let the courts deal with it.

[Jean H. Leroux, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

Mr. Speaker, the minister has been telling us for months that he cannot say anything in this House.

How can the Prime Minister keep in his cabinet a minister who will stop at nothing to hold back information in order to protect the man he himself appointed to the position of Chief of the Defence Staff?

[David Collenette, Liberal, Minister of National Defence and Minister of Veterans Affairs]

Mr. Speaker, the Prime Minister and I have answered those questions.

For those who say, as does the hon. member and colleagues in the Reform Party, that the military is in a mess, I would like them to tell that to the men and women who are serving in Bosnia, in Haiti and in the Middle East. I would like them to say that to the people who man our ships, our air crews and those who conduct search and rescue work. I would like them to say that to the 500 men and women of the air force and army who helped in the Saguenay flood. Is that a mess? That is an armed forces that works and works well in a difficult climate.

[Jack Frazer, Reform, Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC]

Mr. Speaker, the military is doing well despite rather than because of the leadership.

A good leader and in particular a good military leader must be trusted and respected by those who follow.

General Boyle's Somalia inquiry testimony indicates that his leadership includes misleading the military police, breaking the spirit of the Access to Information Act, accusing junior officers of lacking moral fibre and receiving preferential treatment from his department.

Will the Prime Minister now act to provide unquestioned leadership for the Canadian forces by removing General Boyle and the Minister Collenette?

[The Speaker]

Before I let the Prime Minister answer the question, I would like to remind hon. members that we address each other by our titles and not our names.

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, I will reply with a long answer. I am keeping the Minister of National Defence in his position because I have confidence in him. In the previous administration the minister of defence was changed each year. I decided that was a problem. I therefore appointed one competent person to the job until the job is done.