Debates of Sept. 16th, 1996

Questions On The Order Paper

[Garry Breitkreuz, Reform, Yorkton—Melville, SK]

For each of the last 10 years, how many Royal Canadian Mounted Police (RCMP)-owned service revolvers, pistols, rifles, shotguns and tactical weapons have been destroyed by the government, and why is the government planning to destroy approximately 178 rifles, 136 pistols and 22,000 revolvers in 1995-96, and ( a ) what is the fair market value for these firearms as collectors' items or as historical artifacts, and b ) why does the RCMP remove or obliterate the corporate markings, such as RCMP'' orMP'', which reduces the market value and historical significance of these firearms, and ( c ) why are these firearms not traded-in for newer weapons or offered for sale to individual firearm owners who are authorized by the RCMP to own these types of firearms?

[Herb Gray, Liberal, Leader of the Government in the House of Commons and Solicitor General of Canada]

Insofar as the Ministry of the Solicitor General of Canada and its agency is concerned, the answer is as follows:

ROYAL CANADIAN MOUNTED POLICE (RCMP)

Information from RCMP computerized records from June 1991 to June 1995 indicates that the RCMP has destroyed the following types and quantities of RCMP-owned firearms:

Rifles-183 Gas Guns-21 Pistols-35 Revolvers-391 Shotguns-13 Tactical weapons (Submachine guns)-13

The majority of these firearms were destroyed because they were no longer serviceable or were not economical to repair. Information from (paper) files prior to 1991, is no longer available. Files were destroyed in accordance with schedules established for the retention of such documentation. Information was not kept specifically for statistical purposes.

The RCMP is also in the process of destroying an additional 178 rifles, 136 pistols and 22,000 revolvers, which the RCMP considers obsolete or surplus to its requirements.

Current Public Works and Government Services Canada (PWGSC)/Crown Assets Distribution Directorate (CADD) policy governing the disposal of firearms only allows for the sale of serviceable weapons on a government-to-government basis, or destruction. CADD also views the trade-in of firearms as another form of "sale". The RCMP did not pursue the possibility of trading in its .38 calibre revolvers or other firearms because it was not clear what degree of control the RCMP would have over the final disposition of those firearms, once they were turned over to the purchaser (in most cases a firearms distributor acting on behalf of a manufacturer).

The Solicitor General of Canada and the Commissioner of the RCMP recognize that both public opinion and government policy strongly support stricter gun control and initiatives that reduce the proliferation of firearms in society. The RCMP chose to lead by example and not pursue the authority to trade-in or sell its obsolete firearms to any firearms distributors or individuals for collection purposes. As no sale or disposal is being considered, it is difficult to speculate on the fair market value of the firearms as collectors items or as historical artifacts.

Question No. 54-

[Val Meredith, Reform, Surrey—White Rock—South Langley, BC]

Could the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration list all special immigration centres established in Canada and overseas for the review of written applications for entry to Canada and for the determination of entry visas without oral examinations?

[Lucienne Robillard, Liberal, Minister of Citizenship and Immigration]

In Canada, there are two case processing centres which deal with applications for entry to Canada. They are Case Processing Centre (CPC) in Vegreville and Case Processing Centre (CPC) in Mississauga. In April 1994, CPC Vegreville became the centralized point of processing for all visitor and immigrant applications from within Canada. CPC Mississauga is the national case processing centre for all overseas sponsorships.

Overseas, the Area Processing Centre (APC) in Buffalo, New York reviews and processes written visa applications from residents of the U.S.A.

By next year, Citizenship and Immigration Canada (CIC) will have less than 30 missions abroad which receive immigrant applications and screen them to determine whether a selection decision can be made solely on the basis of written information provided by applicants. Interviews are conducted only when the information provided is insufficient to properly assess an application or when the reliability of the information is in doubt.

The same principles apply to visitor, student and temporary worker cases, with the caveat that clients often submit these applications in person. Whenever possible, missions screen in-person visitor applications on a priority basis and conduct client interviews, if required, on the spot. Most in-person visitor visa applications are finalized on the day they are received, thus providing optimal service to clients.

Question No. 55-

[Val Meredith, Reform, Surrey—White Rock—South Langley, BC]

Could the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration explain the circumstances under which entry visas are granted without oral examinations for all immigrant categories and for temporary entrants other than visitors?

[Lucienne Robillard, Liberal, Minister of Citizenship and Immigration]

Whenever possible, missions finalize immigrant and non-immigrant (e.g. student, temporary worker) visa applications on the basis of objective evidence contained in documentation provided by the client. Interviews are convoked only when needed to deal with more subjective issues such as intention or credibility or to clarify ambiguous issues related to the documentation. Employing risk management principles, the visa office which receives the application determines whether a client interview is needed.

Because some types of cases are more easily resolved through documentation than others, interview waiver rates vary between application categories. For example, interviews are waived in a high percentage of spousal applications. Refugee applicants are systematically interviewed to determine their eligibility as ref-

ugees under the United Nations Convention and their admissibility to Canada as permanent residents.

Interview waiver rates also vary between visa offices. The incidence of fraud and the availability, quality and reliability of documentation vary from place to place.

In 1995, about 45 percent of the immigrant cases were finalized without an interview. Risk management practices are continually assessed and reassessed through quality assurance measures and this percentage will likely continue to increase. In no way, however, are these practices implemented at the expense of the integrity of the immigration system.

Question No. 59-

[Roger Simmons, Liberal, Burin—St. George's, NL]

In reference to the Atlantic Canada Opportunities Agency, what action is the federal government taking in response to the claims made by the Auditor General in his November 1995 Report to Parliament, that, (a) with respect to the Action Program and Fisheries Alternatives Program, there were "weaknesses in assessing key economic development criteria-and weaknesses in monitoring project progress and results"; and ( b ) with respect to the COOPERATION Program, the agreements-have broad eligibility criteria and objectives that are not clearly linked to program objectives'' andinformation on project activity and results is not maintained in a consistent manner?''

[Lawrence MacAulay, Liberal, Secretary of State (Veterans) (Atlantic Canada Opportunities Agency)]

Insofar as the Atlantic Canada Opportunities Agency (ACOA) is concerned, a number of steps have been undertaken to respond to the concerns expressed by the Auditor General (AG) in his November 1995 report to Parliament.

-ACOA's multi-year plan emphasizes results measurement in response to the AG report. This will be reflected in the Agency's second five-year report to Parliament. The plan incorporates improvements in the Agency's program information and reporting structure;

-ACOA has commenced the development and application of intermediary indicators which link mandated objectives of jobs and earned incomes to the Agency's program and project activity. The Agency is also evaluating its non-commercial activities to improve knowledge regarding their economic impact. These indicators relate to several key economic criteria which will guide the measurement of Agency programming success;

-ACOA continues to undertake periodic surveys as a means of identifying trends in employment and commercial achievement. The establishment of Economic Benefits Monitoring Policy and Procedures will become a guideline for all of ACOA's program activities;

-ACOA is laying the ground work for successful monitoring and evaluation by developing and implementing evaluation frameworks for all of the Agency's major program activities and by assigning responsibilities and accountability for evaluation and monitoring;

-Quality Assurance Reviews, which are being done annually, will help ensure that monitoring efforts take place and results measurement indicators are applied consistently, and;

-A statistical sampling approach to monitoring projects is also being developed. A pilot project is underway and full application is anticipated for the near future.

Questions Passed As Orders For Returns

[Paul Zed, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to Leader of the Government in the House of Commons]

Mr. Speaker, if questions Nos. 17, 27, 30 and 50 could be made Orders for Return, these returns would be tabled immediately.

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. Kilger)]

Is that agreed?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

Question No. 17-

[Stephen Harper, Reform, Calgary West, AB]

How much advertising was purchased (in time and in dollars), from which T.V. stations, radio stations, newspapers and/or magazines, located in which hamlets, towns, or cities, by the Department of Defence in 1994 and 1995?

Return tabled.

Question No. 27-

[Warren Allmand, Liberal, Notre-Dame-De-Grâce, QC]

With respect to Team Canada's trips to China, Latin America and Southeast Asia, how many contracts for Canada have been thus far concluded, what is the name of the company in each case, what is the subject and value of each case, and how many jobs are created in Canada in each case?

Return tabled.

Question No. 30-

[Werner Schmidt, Reform, Okanagan Centre, BC]

For each of the last 15 years, what grants, contributions, and/or loan guarantees made, either through a crown corporation, department, and/or agency of the government did each of the following companies receive: Air Canada, Bombardier Inc., Canadair, De Havilland, and Airbus Industrie, specifying the source and value of the grant, contribution, and/or loan guarantee, date made, reason(*ros) for providing the assistance, and present status of the grant, contribution and/or loan guarantee (whether repaid, partially repaid, or unpaid-including the value of the repayment)?

Return tabled.

Question No. 50-

[Charles Caccia, Liberal, Davenport, ON]

How many fossil fuel energy projects in foreign countries have been funded by the Export Development Corporation (EDC) and/or the Canadian International Development Agency in the last five years, what is the total amount of funding for these

fossil fuel energy projects, where are they located, and what percentage of the respective organization's total budget do they comprise?

Return tabled.

[Paul Zed, Liberal, Fundy Royal, NB]

Mr. Speaker, I ask that the remaining questions be allowed to stand.

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. Kilger)]

Is that agreed?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

The House resumed consideration of Bill C-45, an act to amend the Criminal Code (judicial review of parole eligibility) and another act in consequence thereof, as reported (without amendment) from a committee; and of motions.

Criminal Code

[Michel Bellehumeur, Bloc, Berthier—Montcalm, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I would like to make the following comment. I listened religiously to what both the government and the Reform Party had to say about this amendment to section 745. From what I can see, the government paid some attention to our suggestions, as the speech I heard went, in large part, along the same lines as what we have always said about this amendment.

What baffles me somewhat is the Reform line where they seem to put everything in a jumble and even go in for some disinformation. I do not wish to dwell on this but what I have heard said to spook people was so gross that I must at least give you one example among many. The hon. member said, referring to the Paul Bernardo case: "It is terrible; he could apply for parole in 15 years".

I would remind members that this individual was declared a dangerous criminal and, as such, will not be able to take advantage of section 745 of the Criminal Code.

I think that the Criminal Code already goes a long way towards addressing the Reform Party's claims and concerns about public safety. But the Criminal Code must be considered globally, as it applies to parole as well as to the concept of dangerous criminal, a relatively new concept that the courts, yielding to public pressure, will eventually enforce. After all the judges live in the same world as we do.

This concerns me because the Criminal Code forms a whole. And I have a problem with the amendment the Minister of Justice wants to make to section 745 of the Criminal Code. The minister is trying to respond to public pressure or to in-house polls we do not have, which probably show how the population is increasingly moving to the right. Perhaps the minister is thinking: if I want to score political points with the voters in this regard, I should tighten the screw.

I think that the Minister of Justice is acting irresponsibly by simply going ahead and amending section 745, as it is a very important section of the Criminal Code. This section is a link in the chain of the prison system. It did not come out of nowhere. Everything hangs together in the Criminal Code and in the philosophy we have defended in this country, whose evolution Quebecers have done a great deal to bring about. Section 745 is already aimed at protecting the public and rehabilitating criminals.

True, this section was adopted 20 years ago. You may recall that many moving speeches were made in this House during consideration of section 745 as the bill was aimed at abolishing capital punishment. However, the arguments put forward by the minister today to speed up the legislative process are designed to hide his failure to plan a piece of legislation originating from his own department. Instead of thinking about how to muzzle the people of Quebec, which is moving toward sovereignty, the minister should perhaps stop and think for a few minutes about what he could do in his own department to design a bill that provides for the rehabilitation and social reintegration of criminals while at the same time protecting the public.

In this regard, as I was saying earlier, section 745 already protects the public, which is entitled to the protection it seeks. So this is not a real problem. True, it is fashionable today to adopt extremist positions in order to win some votes votes in English Canada, but this must not be used as an excuse.

In fact, if we read documents from the department, and also some newspaper articles, we can see that the proposed amendments to section 745 are primarily motivated by the case of serial killer Clifford Olson who, under this provision, has the right to apply for his release.

The minister seems to be have been caught off guard by this case. Yet, we have known for 15 years that, on August 12, 1996, this criminal would have the right to invoke section 745, but the minister did not do anything. Now, at the last minute, he wants to quickly pass an amendment on the grounds that we cannot allow this criminal to use section 745. We have known for 15 years that this criminal would invoke section 745; all criminals do so. However, not all of them see their application approved.

In its present form, section 745 provides some security and I have no doubt that, if we apply this section and instruct the jury in an appropriate manner, this criminal will not get what he is seeking to obtain through section 745. But the section must be applied. We have to give the jury a proper opportunity to make a decision.

The Bloc Quebecois made a number of observations regarding section 745, including three in particular, which have led us to propose, as did the hon. member for Bellechasse, motions to amend three clauses of this bill.

First, we believe in rehabilitation. However, the amendments to section 745 of the Criminal Code put such restrictions on the scope of the judicial review that this review will exist only in theory. Indeed, the requirement for a unanimous decision by the jury makes it almost impossible for an applicant to get a positive response to his or her application for a judicial review, since a single juror could block the whole process.

The second reason we oppose these changes is that they remove the right of multiple murderers to apply for judicial review. It is completely arbitrary and unfair. In the field of justice, in the field of crime, there is no formula by which someone who has committed a murder has certain rights, whereas someone who has committed two murders does not have those rights. All this must be looked at in its context. It is because of the system as a whole that there is a history to the administration of justice, with the result that if we amend a section here and a section there, we may change the rules of the game, with disastrous consequences.

The third reason we are against the proposed changes is the introduction of a new concept in the Criminal Code, the so-called reasonable prospect that the judge must consider. I think that further study and closer examination of this new concept in the Criminal Code are indicated.

We have nothing against reviewing a section 20 years after it was passed. What we are saying is that we should take more time to analyse the changes, listen more carefully to what the public wants. We should listen to what the experts who will be applying this section can tell us about what direction to take in amending section 745, something the minister is not doing now, in his haste to proceed.

It must be remembered that the first reading of Bill C-45 took place on June 11, 1996. We adjourned for the whole summer, and today, the first day of our return, we are already at the report stage. What is the rush? Why change such an important section in the Criminal Code? Let us take the time to examine section 745 and to listen to the experts who will be applying it.

That is why the member for Bellechasse, a member of the Bloc Quebecois, has at least presented amendments. I say at least, because this point should be studied further. But at this stage, I think that the unanimity rule is the most important rule that must be blocked. We must not vote in favour, and the amendment proposed by the member for Bellechasse changes unanimity to three quarters of the members of the jury, so that nine out of 12 will make the decision on whether or not to apply section 745, instead of the unanimous decision that the minister is calling for.

If the minister wants to be clear about what he is doing, if he is against section 745, then let him follow the lead of the Reformers and make up his mind to repeal it. But if he believes in rehabilitation, if he believes in section 745, I think that he should at least receive the amendments proposed by the member for Bellechasse to change the requirement from unanimity to three quarters of the members of the jury.

[Gordon Kirkby, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada]

Mr. Speaker, I rise today to speak against the motions which have been introduced. These motions are for the purposes of amending Bill C-45, an act to amend the Criminal Code, judicial review of parole ineligibility and another act.

There are six motions on the Order Paper. Three have been introduced by the hon. member for Bellechasse and three have been introduced by the hon. member for Kingston and the Islands.

However, as I am sure the hon. members will have observed, all six motions come down to the same thing. All of them seek to change the proposed amendment in Bill C-45 that would require that a section 745 jury be unanimous in order to grant an offender a reduction in his or her parole ineligibility period.

As anyone who has followed the debates on this issue will know, at present section 745 allows a review jury to reduce an offender's parole ineligibility period with a two-thirds vote, or 8 members out of 12 on the jury. In Bill C-45 the government proposes to change that standard from two-thirds of the jury to unanimity so that all members of the review jury reviewing section 745 applications must agree in order to reduce the ineligibility period for parole.

The motions before us today seek to do is to replace the government's proposed standard of 12 votes out of 12 in order to reduce the parole ineligibility period, with a lower standard of 10 votes out of 12, in the case of the motions introduced by the hon. member for Kingston and the Islands, and 9 votes out of 12 in the case of motions introduced by the hon. member for Bellechasse. These motions then would provide a standard that is somewhat higher than that under the current law but is still significantly lower than the standard proposed by Bill C-45.

When the government introduced Bill C-45, its aim was among other things to strengthen the role of the community jury in section 745 proceedings by strengthening the statement made by the jury in making their decision. In those cases where the jury decides to reduce the offender's parole ineligibility period, under the government's amendments it could only be done by unanimous decision,

the strongest possible statement by a jury of ordinary Canadians drawn from the community.

In addition, the government's intention was to return to the time honoured standard in our criminal justice system that a jury's verdict must be unanimous. The standard for conviction or acquittal in the Canadian justice system is and always has been that the jury must be unanimous in their decision. Why, I would ask, would the standard be anything less for a section 745 application?

Perhaps it would help to recall that section 745 is an exceptional mechanism under which a person convicted of the most serious offence in the Criminal Code may obtain a grant of clemency with respect to their parole ineligibility period. Why should an offender not have to convince all members of the jury that he or she deserves to have his or her parole ineligibility period reduced in order to obtain such a grant of clemency? A unanimous decision by the review jury is a clear statement that the offender deserves clemency.

I have already noted that there is a difference between the hon. member's motions with respect to this bill in terms of the number at which they would place the standard. One set of motions would establish the standard at 9 while the other set of motions would establish the standard at 10. The current standard is at 8.

More than anything else it seems to me that this difference points to the complete arbitrariness involved in establishing a standard short of unanimity. Should it be the current regulations which is 8 votes, or should it be set at 9, 10 or even 11? What possible rationale is there for establishing any of these standards?

In the face of this conundrum the government has proposed in Bill C-45 that we utilize the only sensible standard, the time honoured standard of our criminal justice system: the standard that requires that the verdict of the jury be unanimous.

For all of these reasons the government cannot accept these changes to Bill C-45. Therefore, I would ask that hon. members defeat these motions.

During my comments made with respect to these motions which are restricted to reducing the proposed standard for the jury at unanimity in reaching a decision to 9 or even 10 votes, I have restricted my comments very specifically to those issues. I will be speaking again in general terms with respect to Bill C-45 and particularly section 745 of the Criminal Code at third reading.

In wrapping up, we cannot accept these changes as proposed in these motions. I ask hon. members to defeat these motions.

[Myron Thompson, Reform, Wild Rose, AB]

Mr. Speaker, it gives me pleasure to rise today to speak to this bill and its amendments. I hope I can reflect something that has never been reflected in this House by the opposition party or by the party in power, that is, the concerns, the worries and the cares of the victims of crime.

We do a lot of concentrating. We hear a lot of messages about rehabilitation, all the good things we need to do for the criminals of our land, but we do not hear much about the victims. I hope to speak on their behalf first of all by opposing the amendments to this bill and later by opposing the bill in total.

I could never support any amendment to Bill C-45 unless it was the total and unequivocal repeal of section 745 of the Criminal Code. Over the years we have asked ourselves what is a fair or just penalty for the murder of an innocent person. In my opinion, the answer of a mere 15 years is not a just penalty. The problem is there are a select few out there who do not agree and they have proposed legislation in the form of section 745 and Bill C-45.

I find it appalling to hear a comment that if a person has taken the life of another on purpose, in cold blood and planned it and is put behind bars for life, that it is a wasted life. May I remind members of the House that the wasted life is the victim of that individual and the victim's family and friends. They are the victims. That is what we need to be addressing here.

Until now the Canadian people trusted those they elected to make proper decisions in their best interests when it came to the justice system. Unfortunately, Canadians have started to realize that their trust has been misplaced and that some of the decisions are not made in their best interests.

All we have to do is look to the many relatives and friends of murdered Canadians who say they thought that when an offender was sentenced to life that meant life with no chance of parole for 25 years. That is what they thought.

I cannot imagine the tremendous pain a family must endure when they learn that the criminal who took their beloved family member is now eligible to be released from prison after a mere 15 years.

We now know that in the next 15 years, over 600 families will encounter this same pain. Under Bill C-45 this pain will continue. Bill C-45 ultimately still provides a glimmer of hope for murderers for early release before serving their full life sentence of no parole for 25 years.

Which murderer ever provided his victim with a glimmer of hope? Why on earth do we extend that same hope to them? There is no hope for the victims, none at all. They have lost someone and

that someone will not be back. Where is their glimmer of hope? Their glimmer of hope lies in the fact that the people of this place will wake up and realize the value of life and make those who take a life pay a price so that they wish they had not done it.

There have been many times in history when we as legislators thought we had all the answers to the world's problems. It takes the Canadian people speaking out to remind us that we have lost our way. And they are speaking out.

I see petitions tabled here with over two million signatures asking us to do something about this justice system. I see the Darlene Boyds running across the country and others bringing in thousands and thousands of names-probably millions by now-to repeal section 745. Can we not get the message? It is not what can we do for the criminal, not what can we do for the cold blooded killer, but what can we do for the victims of our land. That is the question we had better start answering. What can we do to prevent this from happening in the future?

Last spring when many families of murder victims launched this campaign to alert the public about section 745, the petitions began flowing and they are continuing today.

Darlene Boyd's daughter Laurie was abducted, raped and murdered in January 1982 by Jim Peters and Bob Brown. These men were also found guilty of the abduction, rape and beating death of Debbie Stevens of High River, Alberta in December 1981. Brown committed suicide in prison but Peters' parole review is now set for February 1997.

Mrs. Boyd stated back in February of this year that even the possibility that her daughter's murderer could be considered for an early release after 15 years in jail is a travesty, referring to it as a 40 per cent killer's discount. Because Mr. Peters killed two women she figures that if he were to be released next year he would be getting the equivalent of only seven and a half years for each murder. She said that nothing short of the repeal of the early parole provision would ease her concerns. She said that she is serving a life sentence and questioned why can the killers of her daughter not serve the same.

The problem is that Darlene Boyd's family, like many other victims' families, will be traumatized again as they are forced to relive the tragedies that caused them so much pain with each section 745 review.

It is good for the industry. The legal industry will flourish. We will have lots and lots of court cases. It is a chance for parole for killers. I am sorry, I cannot buy that. It is time to cut that industry down. Let us get rid of some of these things. That is a good area in which to start.

Revictimizing the survivors is cruel. It is unjustified. That is why nothing short of repealing this section would be the only humane thing to do.

I cannot understand why the government does not recognize the fact that victims should be the ones at issue. To have a family member murdered is one of the most horrendous crimes committed in Canada. They will never forget and the hurt will never go away. Unfortunately the new legislation shows no regard for the victims and does not allow them any way in which to fight back.

This weak action by the government gives into the bleeding heart Liberal philosophy of protecting convicts instead of victims. The watered down amendments to section 745 are not even going to come close to satisfying Canadians.

The people spoke back in June. A petition calling for section 745 to be repealed was presented by my hon. colleague from Crowfoot. It contained more than 20,000 signatures. The Calgary Sun last spring received an astonishing 35,000 coupons signed by readers to protest the existence of section 745. Some of the signatures even came from guards who work in a central Alberta prison. When the front line workers speak out, how can they not listen? If they do not listen to the front line workers, why would they listen to the victims' families?

There are so many examples and they are growing every day. Look at the past. Constable Brian King. Remember him? He was a 40-year old father of three when he was lured into a trap and executed with two shots to the head on a river bank in Saskatoon in 1978 by Greg Fisher and Darryl Crook. They had boasted openly that day that they were going to kill a police officer. Already Mrs. King and her family have been exposed to and have had to endure two judicial reviews for Fisher to hear his application for early release.

What about Calgary police Staff Sergeant Keith Harrison who died in the line of duty back in 1978? One of his murderers, John Nichols, applied under section 745 back in 1994. The Calgary parole jury decided to let him out after just 17 years of his sentence. Mrs. Harrison said that the only thing that made her feel even a little better was knowing he was serving 25 years. I can only imagine how she feels now knowing that he is roaming around free and living in a halfway house in Vancouver.

Then there are the present victims. A day does not go by without thinking of the Rosenfeldt family and the other 10 families affected by Clifford Olson's application for early release this past month. Gary Rosenfeldt stated on a number of occasions that section 745 is nothing but an insult to victims.

There are the future victims. I recently received a letter from the mother of Tanya Smith. I am sure everybody remembers her, the 16-year old girl from Abbotsford, B.C. who was snatched off the

street by a man with a baseball bat. Tanya Smith was later found bludgeoned to death and dumped in a river. One thing is for certain, the pain for Mrs. Smith will never go away. It is only intensified by knowing that Tanya's murderer will have the right of a section 745 hearing.

I would like to read the letter from Mr. and Mrs. Smith in the time I have left, which is one minute, but I will read it as fast as I can. I would like people to listen carefully. It is addressed to the House of Commons members:

How many more children are going to die at the hands of these monsters before you listen to us? Our daughter has been snatched away from us and we will never be able to touch her again. Do you know how she died? Do you care? Actions speak louder than words.

We are left behind now to ask these questions and we had better start getting some answers. Our daughter's life was worth more to us than anything in this world and now our lives are empty and worthless. Tanya's baby brother asks when Tanya's coming home every day. Her sister cannot sleep in the room they shared together.

When we finally are able to start going to the cemetery this animal comes out from under his rock and takes our daughter's headstone, leaving it on top of a car in the middle of a town. When all of this happens to us we are told that we are not technically the actual victims here.

Our daughter has been murdered. Her headstone has been desecrated and this thing is still walking our streets and you say we are not victims.

We live in fear every day. Tanya's father cannot work because of what has happened and I cannot sit still all day, enraged with what has happened. Our family are now prisoners of our own home and community because of this. Our torment is now someone else's big story. It sickens us and only adds to our hell on earth.

One person has changed our lives and took our precious Tanya's life forever. If this does not make us victims then you tell us what does. Our greatest joy taken from us and for what?

I will tell you this, if we ever find out that this person was jailed at one time or another for violence and then set free, we will hold the government responsible for Tanya's death. Maybe others will follow until you finally wake up and get the message that the government is making us, the innocent people, prisoners and the prisoners the victims, and that is wrong.

I encourage members of the House, let us get rid of section 745 in total. It is something Canadians do not want, and it is our duty to serve Canadians.

[Warren Allmand, Liberal, Notre-Dame-De-Grâce, QC]

Mr. Speaker, thank you for recognizing me in this debate on Bill C-45, a bill that would substantially amend article 745 of the Criminal Code.

Many members of the public might ask what is article 745 of the Criminal Code. This provision was introduced in 1976 at the time when this House abolished capital punishment. At that time, with the abolition of capital punishment, the House decided that the penalty for murder would be a life sentence, but it also provided that those convicted of murder would be eligible for parole at 25 years for first degree murder and a period not less than 10 years for second degree murder.

At the same time, the House also provided that these convicted murderers, if they had a parole eligibility date of more than 15 years, could apply for a review of their parole eligibility date at 15 years by applying to the court in the province where the murder was committed and where there would be a judge and jury appointed to review the reasons the individual would give for reducing the parole eligibility from 25 years.

In the law it stated that the judge and jury in considering this application would have to have regard to the character of the applicant, his conduct while serving his sentence, the nature of the offence and other matters as the judge would deem relevant.

Therefore, after looking at all this evidence the jury, by a vote of two-thirds, which would be eight of twelve, could decide to reduce the parole eligibility date from 25 years to 20 years or 17 years or something like that.

Once they would have done that, if they made such a decision, the individual would then have to go to the parole board. All the judge and jury would do is consider a change in the parole eligibility date. For the individual, if his parole eligibility was reduced from 25 years to 20 years, then when 20 years arrived he would have to go to the parole board and prove he was no longer a danger to the public and that he was rehabilitated.

If he convinced the parole board at that second step that he fulfilled those conditions then he would be released, but he would not be released if he could not demonstrate those conditions. There is no suggestion by any of us who support section 745 of the Criminal Code that anyone who is still dangerous to the public or who is not rehabilitated be released. We would be completely opposed to the release of those individuals.

It is a two step process under section 745. First you apply to have your parole eligibility date changed to something less than 25 years and if that is agreed to by the judge and jury then you must go to the parole board and prove that you are no longer a danger to the public and are rehabilitated.

This provision was not a loophole. It is clearly in the legislation of 1976. A suggestion by some members that this is some sort of hidden provision in the law, that it was sneaked in, is completely false.

I had the responsibility of introducing this bill. It was introduced in this House. It was spelled out in black and white like all bills and it was clear to all those who can read and write that it was in the bill. Those who suggest today that it was some kind of hidden provision are merely misleading the public.

The reason we introduced this new process was that the abolition of capital punishment was a free vote matter. Being a free vote

matter the whips were not on and there was a lot of negotiation with individual members in the House as to what they would accept in place of capital punishment. The bargaining went back and forth, we had committees of all parties of the House, those who were for and against the abolition. I dealt with those who were for the abolition and we worked out this very complex solution. It was not my preferred version but that is how it ended up in the bargaining in the House and that is what was legislated.

[Myron Thompson, Reform, Wild Rose, AB]

Let the people of Canada decide.

[Warren Allmand, Liberal, Notre-Dame-De-Grâce, QC]

I listened to the hon. member and I never complained while he was speaking and I wish he would have the courtesy to listen to me.

This provision has worked well. It has not been used irresponsibly, and the record will demonstrate that. Since 1976, 175 inmates have been eligible to apply under this provision. However, up until December 1995 only 74 or 42.3 per cent of those eligible have applied. One might ask why have they not all applied. It has been suggested that if it is such a great provision why have they not all applied? It is obvious that many have not applied because they know they do not have any chance in the world of having their parole eligibility reduced from 25 years so they do not bother. That can be the only explanation. Only 75 or 42.3 per cent have applied.

Of those who have applied, 63 reviews have been completed out of the 74, and 13 of those were totally refused any reduction in their parole eligibility date, and 50 were granted either partial or whole reduction. In other words, they were given some sort of reduction, down to 15, and others were given the total reduction.

There is a suggestion insinuated in the House that once they get this reduction in parole they are released. They are not. They still have to go to the parole board, which takes another one or two years. That has been the record so far and I know of a case where the parole eligibility was reduced three years ago and that individual still has not had a hearing before the parole board.

What has happened with those 50 who had either partial or whole reduction in their parole eligibility date? Only 17 were granted full parole and 8 were granted day parole. Only 25 out of the 175 eligible since 1976 have been granted finally by the parole board either partial or full parole. The rest have either been turned down or have not had their cases heard.

Of those who were granted parole and put on the street, two were returned to prison for breaking their parole conditions and only one committed another offence, and it was not murder.

That is the record. This provision has not been a failure, has not led to massive threats to the public, has not led to repeated murders. On the whole it has worked well.

Bill C-45, now before the House, suggests the decision of the jury in these cases should be a unanimous decision rather than a decision of 8 out of 12. One must ask why when the provision has worked so well.

In any case, there are two amendments before the House, one by the hon. member for Bellechasse who suggests that it should be 9 out of 12 and another amendment by the member for Kingston and the Island who suggests that it should be 10 out of 12. I will support either one of those amendments, although my preference is to abolish section 745 altogether and have parole eligibility at 15 years for first degree murder and parole eligibility for second degree murder at 10 years. Before 1976 parole eligibility was at 10 years and there was no great abuse of the system.

In the minute or two I have left I want to reply to some of the arguments raised by the Reform Party. It suggests that when we support section 745 we are equating the life of a murdered person with 15 years. I heard several members say we are suggesting that the murdered person's life was worth only 15 years. That is nonsense. Nothing can replace the life of a murdered person, whether it is capital punishment or 30 or 100 years in prison. Nothing can replace that life. It is to misrepresent our position to suggest that by having a parole eligibility date of 10, 15 or 25 years that we are equating that number of years with the value of a person's life. That is totally false and unfair.

It has also been suggested that because we support this provision we are inflicting additional pain on the families of the victims. If there is any kind of parole or any kind of application for parole, the case will be brought up once again before the parole board or the courts. I do not think it is correct. I have sat in on some of these hearings. Some families of victims are upset by parole hearings and some are not. To suggest that it is universal is incorrect.

I would say to the hon. members in the Reform Party that their conduct in bringing up these cases over and over again, even when many people are not aware that these cases are before the courts, in the House, on television and radio, is doing much more to bring back to life the horrible events of the murder than the application before the parole board or the court and jury in the area concerned.

The suggestion by the Reform Party that getting tough and having no parole and that life means life will protect the victims and reduce the numbers of murders is again totally false. That has been done in many of the states in the U.S. They have brought back capital punishment. There are high rates of capital punishment and their murder rates are way beyond those in Canada. In other words, the tough actions being suggested do not protect the public, do not reduce crime and it would not help the victims. The murder rate in

Canada has declined for four consecutive years now with the laws we have. It is approximately 2.2 per 100,000 population. The murder rate in Florida and in the southern adjoining states where capital punishment was brought back is about 10 per 100,000, much higher. They are doing exactly what the Reform Party has suggested.