Debates of Oct. 2nd, 1997

The House resumed consideration of the motion for an Address to His Excellency the Governor General in reply to his Speech at the opening of the session.

Speech From The Throne

[Pierre Pettigrew, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development]

Mr. Speaker, it is an honour for me, as the member for Papineau—Saint-Denis, to take part in this debate on the throne speech that marks the beginning of our government's second term in office.

I would like to thank my constituents in Saint-Michel, Villeray and Parc Extension for their vote of confidence, and I can tell them today in the House that I will make sure I represent them well and with the respect they deserve.

A new wind of optimism is blowing across Canada. Canadians are feeling renewed confidence. They are realizing that it is time to accomplish many things when governments and citizens undertake together to build a stronger Canada. I am proud to be a member of a Parliament that, for the first time in 20 years, will see Canada achieve a balanced budget, a zero deficit, and eventually a surplus.

This turnaround of the country's financial situation is the doing of Canadians all the way from Saint John's to Victoria, who rolled up their sleeves to regain their freedom to choose, which had been threatened by increasingly higher deficits.

Together we progressed from what the international financial community once called a basket case to one of the most robust economies in the industrialized world. We are poised to have the strongest growth among the world's largest economies.

At the same time we have not lost sight of the human needs of Canadians. Canada's population is among the healthiest in the world and most Canadians enjoy a unparalleled quality of life. Both of these achievements, one social and the other economic, are testimony to the fact that we did not sacrifice our vision of Canada, a country that is strong and united, a country that values healthy children and strong families living in safe communities, a country where everyone believes in the dignity of work and the importance of self-reliance, a country in which young people have hope for a better future, a country where we share responsibility for each other, especially the most vulnerable among us, and a country where diversity is seen as a great source of strength.

It is a vision that inspires our government. It is the vision captured in the Speech from the Throne.

We will continue to build a society that holds dear the fundamental values of equity and equality. The pursuit of equity and equality enables Canadians to strike a balance in our twofold commitment to promote independence and responsibility to one another.

In Canada, we do not believe a choice must be made between independence and responsibility to one another. And as we progress, we must never lessen our vigilance. We must never neglect any individual or any region. This, to my mind, is the thrust of the throne speech: Canada works for all Canadians and continues to evolve in response to the increasingly changing needs of Canadians.

As Minister of Human Resources Development, every day I see the interdependence of social and economic policy. They are in fact inseparable. Economic growth does not occur in a vacuum. It is a human activity.

The government has represented Canadians with an integration plan of action, a measured and deliberate plan. It is a plan that invests in the social and economic priorities of Canadians, children and youth, health and knowledge, and it is a plan that respects Canadians' determination to see governments live within their means.

Our success depends on harnessing the energies of all Canadians, of all governments, federal, provincial and territorial, of the voluntary sector and of the private sector.

This is how we turn values into action. We can continue to build a country of which we can all be proud. This is how this government will continue to work to keep our country together.

Part of the new optimism is Canadians' renewed confidence in our capacity as a society to expand opportunity. Young people are looking for jobs with a future. Canadians with disabilities want the opportunity to participate fully in the economic and social life of this country.

Parents are trying to give their children what they need to flourish. Older Canadians want secure income support in retirement.

Businesses, large and small, are trying to secure a competitive advantage in an increasingly global marketplace. Men and women want an economy that creates jobs, not sheds them. Canadians in all regions want to ensure that people in need are not forgotten.

In our last mandate we took action to deal with these issues. In this mandate we will add the essential building blocks that are already in place.

Building Canada is the work of every day and it is the responsibility of all Canadians in every part of the country. That is why the Speech from the Throne stresses partnership.

A society that invests in its children can look to the future with confidence. Renowned experts in child development have established a link between economic performance and investment in human resources and children, in particular.

When we fail to invest sufficiently in the early years of child development, the country's future economic prosperity may suffer in two ways. First, economic growth may be frozen because the necessary human resources cannot be counted on. Second, society may have to assume higher costs later on as a direct consequence of the failure to invest in the early years.

In 1996 the prime minister and provincial and territorial first ministers made a commitment to improve the way governments work together to help children in poverty. The 1997 budget announced the first down payment of the Government of Canada toward a better way of providing income tax benefits and services to children in poor families.

The new Canada child tax benefit is the federal government's contribution to a new and exciting partnership with provincial and territorial governments.

The national child benefit system will provide more support to low income families struggling to provide their children with a good start in life.

Canadians want to work but our current support system produces some strange results. Parents on social assistance can stand to lose thousands of dollars in benefits for their children when they make the decision to leave welfare for work.

This built-in disincentive is called the welfare wall. The new national child benefit will help tear down this wall. Over time it will help reduce child poverty, strengthen families and enable governments to work further for Canada's children.

I am pleased to say that during the course of this mandate the Government of Canada will at least double its initial investment of $850 million in this innovative program.

By investing in the national child benefit, Canadians are sharing the responsibility to get our children off to a good start in life. They are helping parents get into the workforce.

I will continue to work with provincial and territorial governments as they redirect some of their social assistance resources into complementary benefits and services to help children in low income families, especially the working poor.

By working together we are tackling a problem which no one order of government can solve alone. We have achieved a most significant advance in joint federal, provincial and territorial social policy in the last 30 years.

The throne speech stresses the importance of co-operation in partnerships. The national child benefit represents the best that this type of co-operation has to offer. It is not a mere example of federal-provincial co-operation, but the result of efforts by governments of all political stripes, whether Liberal, New Democratic or Conservative, working together to improve the well-being of our children and prepare a better future for them. When I look at this remarkable achievement, I realize why Canadians are more optimistic.

Money is only part of the answer. Children need a large investment of time and attention for healthy development. They grow up not just in a household but in a society. They need strong families and they need safe communities, good schools, good health care and opportunities to develop.

We have begun working with provincial governments to develop a national children's agenda to improve the well-being of Canada's children. We will continue to do that with businesses, voluntary groups and unions, with aboriginal groups and communities.

This exciting new agenda will make a difference to the lives of hundreds of thousands of Canadian children, and by improving their lives we are laying the foundation for a better future.

Another key element of our plan is addressing the needs of youth. Canada's young people are the best educated, the most literate and the most technologically adept in our history. Their potential is as limitless as Canada itself. However, to succeed in today's economy young people need more education, better skills and relevant experience. They have to be prepared to learn throughout their lives.

In light of this fact let me share with the House three trends which have developed among young Canadians, as well as what the Government of Canada is doing to help them along.

The first trend is that a large portion of young Canadians can and will succeed on their own. They are staying in school. They are getting varied part time and summer work experience. They are starting their own businesses, or perhaps they are doing voluntary community work.

The only assistance these young people will likely need is access to information which will help them make wise decisions in their education and career choices. Through the government's youth employment strategy we can provide them with the information, services and support they need.

The Government of Canada will create a Canada-wide mentorship program. This program is based on the success of local mentorship programs where a young person can get connected on line or in person with a mentor who has professional experience in the field the young person wishes to explore.

Second, there are young Canadians who, after completing their studies, cannot find the work that would enable them to make a full contribution to society. Experience shows that when young Canadians are looking for that first job, they are confronted with a vicious circle: no experience, no job; no job, no experience.

This is why, we are providing, through programs such as our internship program and our summer student employment initiative, work experience for over 100,000 young Canadians, to make it easier for them to find permanent jobs. This is the boost they need to overcome this lack of experience and thus meet employers' requirements.

That is the hand up the Government of Canada and Human Resources Development Canada are prepared to give them.

There is a third group of young Canadians whose prospect of finding work in today's labour market has deteriorated dramatically. These are young Canadians who have low levels of education and skills. They need an opportunity to learn new skills such as literacy. These young people require social supports that can best be provided by their communities.

The first step is equipping them with these basic skills. Then they need their first job break. The Government of Canada can help them by bringing together those who can best provide these services.

The goal of many of our programs such as youth service Canada is to work with community and voluntary organizations in assisting young Canadians who had previously lost hope to become self-reliant members of society, and we are doing our very best.

Education is the key to success and we will work hard on post-secondary education to reduce barriers for so many of them with further changes to the Canada student loans program with increased assistance for students with dependants and new scholarships such as the Canada millennium scholarship endowment fund as announced by the prime minister.

We have also made a commitment to do more to see that Canadians with disabilities play a larger role in our economy. I want to tap into the enormous potential of people who can and want to contribute to our economy and society but who do need some support to do so. That is why we have committed to work with the provinces to redesign the vocational rehabilitation of disabled persons program so that it does what it is supposed to do, give Canadians with disabilities a greater opportunity to participate in the workforce.

We have also introduced the opportunities fund to further the economic integration of persons with disabilities.

We believe very much in investing in Canada's human capital. These initiatives are tied together by a common thread. They are about getting the best we can from Canadians and they are about giving the best we can to Canadians. They are about balancing our commitment to self-reliance and our belief in mutual responsibility.

Before concluding, I would like to add a few words concerning how well the issue of the renewal of the Canadian social union is progressing. Every day, Quebeckers tell me how satisfied they are with the progress made in renewing Canada's social union, of which a few of the main characteristics were mentioned earlier.

I am very pleased to hear these comments, as they show that our approach is successful in ensuring the best quality of life possible for all our fellow citizens.

The social union is an essential feature of Canada. It has contributed greatly to making Canada the best country in the world in which to live. A vast majority of Quebeckers would really like—as polls indicate time and time again—Canada to work efficiently and harmoniously, would like co-operation and partnership to replace unproductive fights and what I call federal-provincial turf wars, and so on.

The social union is the ideal testing ground for our ability to work in partnership, modernize our programs, clarify the various roles played by the Government of Canada, share equitably our country's resources and strengthen our economic union. The various levels of government are also capable of reaching agreement when they are motivated by a clear desire to succeed.

Quebeckers are fully aware of the fact that no economic union is possible without a social union to give it harmony, structure and strength. In fact, true economic union and social union go hand in hand. That is why the modernization of Canada's social union is in the immediate best interests of Quebeckers and Canadians alike.

In this context, I find the Quebec premier's attitude toward the renewal of the social union deplorable. It is a marked departure from Quebec's traditional approach, from the grand tradition of Jean Lesage and Robert Bourassa, an approach traditionally characterized by a pragmatic approach, co-operation and striving toward results that will great benefit Quebeckers.

The Speech from the Throne does chart a course for entering the 21st century. It calls on all governments and all Canadians to work together. It provides a plan for investing in our future, a future that reflects Canadians' determination to build a society based on fairness and equality. The cost of exclusion is far greater than the amounts we have committed to these programs.

I hope all the hon. members of this House will continue working with us for their own constituents and for all Canadians to ensure that our society remains not only one of the most prosperous in the world, but also one of the most progressive, most generous and most responsive to the needs of all its members, and the most vulnerable in particular.

[Antoine Dubé, Bloc, Lévis, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I listened to the Minister of Human Resources Development, and I noticed the tone he used. It was so melodious, it could almost be compared to a symphony orchestra. But it was not melodious enough to lull me, because it rang false all the way through.

Any observer of the Quebec reality can see that the Minister of Human Resources Development does not visit certain parts of Quebec very often. He carefully avoids those ridings he used to visit with his predecessor at HRDC. We all remember Minister Young—whom I can name since he is no longer a minister. There was also Minister Dingwall. Liberal members from the maritimes were all voted out of office, or almost. Poof, they disappeared just like that.

In Quebec, the member for Bonaventure—Îles-de-la-Madeleine, who played a leadership role in this House in the last Parliament and who backed the Employment Insurance Act, did not get re-elected either.

It takes some gall to come and talk about the future and how Canadian society is the best in the world when there are now 500,000 more children living in poverty than there were when the Liberals took office. It takes some gall on the part of a minister who is from Quebec to talk about the youth strategy and job creation. It takes some gall to talk about an even tighter social union and education, when, like this minister, one has sat in the National Assembly as an assistant to a former education minister.

But knowing all that, he discourses melodiously in both official languages, expecting us to applaud.

I will end on a question that is still topical. In light of the questions that the House heard today on the subject of party fundraising, as a Quebecker, would the minister agree, yes or no, that the federal government should take Quebec's lead and pass legislation limiting the funding of political parties to that provided by individuals? That would save the Liberal Party's skin.

[Pierre Pettigrew, Liberal, Papineau—Saint-Denis, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I find it very interesting that my colleague opposite, a member of the Bloc Quebecois, is telling us what to make of the election results.

I would like to point out to him that our political party made gains in Quebec, while his lost 11 seats, dropping from 49 to 38, is in disarray, is rejected by our fellow Quebeckers, and now represents only a part of the province. I think the member should be a great deal more modest in his analysis of the election results.

I must, however, thank him for his very kind comments about my speech. He found that it was harmonious and elevated and had vision. I must tell him I am deeply touched by his kind words.

I am very happy that my work follows in the great footsteps of the likes of Lesage and Bourassa. I draw his attention to the magnificent passage written by Claude Castonguay recently, taking Quebec's premier to task for breaking with Quebeckers' great tradition of pragmatism in matters of social union, for not following in the steps of people like Jean Lesage and Robert Bourassa, who worked for the well-being of Quebeckers.

But I can reassure the member that, when it comes to current events, he has before him a minister who did his duty by informing the RCMP minutes after learning of certain allegations.

[Jason Kenney, Reform, Calgary Southeast, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I would like to congratulate the minister on his remarks. This minister is a very accomplished and distinguished minister who has set a tone of constructiveness in his government. While I disagree with much of what he said, I believe that he is a constructive force for federalism in this country and I commend him on that.

This minister does talk a great deal about children and families, which is nice to hear. Liberals do like to talk about those issues but the unfortunate thing is they do not like to act very much on them. In particular, this minister talked about the child tax credit, a commendable albeit very modest effort on the part of this government.

I would like to ask this minister if he thinks it would not be a laudable public policy for the government to pursue tax fairness for families, that is to say to remove the intrinsic penalty that exists in the current code against single income families, families that choose to keep one parent at home to raise their children. There are millions of such Canadian families penalized by the fact that the child care deduction is limited to double income families.

Would the minister support measures such as converting the child care deduction into a refundable credit available to all families? Would he also agree in principle to raising the basic spousal exemption in the tax code to a level equivalent to the basic personal exemption so that stay at home parents are no longer penalized by this government's tax code?

[Pierre Pettigrew, Liberal, Papineau—Saint-Denis, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I thank the member for his very generous words about the work I am trying to do in favour of renewing Canadian federalism. It is very generous of him.

My job in the government is to provide programs and services to a number of people who are most vulnerable. The Department of Human Resources Development has about six million Canadian clients to whom we are trying to give a break which will allow them to have a better quality of life.

There could be a number of other measures that he can certainly discuss with the finance minister but my job in the government is to provide certain programs and services. I am glad that the member does actually recognize the benefit of the Canada child tax benefit. I was extremely sensitive to his remark about this maybe not being enough. Maybe we could get the support of the Reform Party in order to do more with the Canada child tax benefit.

[Lee Morrison, Reform, Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK]

Mr. Speaker, I was rather taken by the hon. minister's comments about the revenue departments of the provinces and the federal government working together. That sounds like a partnership between John Dillinger and Lucky Luciano.

He was talking about how literate Canadian youth are. This is a bit of a contradiction because he also remarked about the programs to increase literacy in the population. If he thinks Canadian youth now are more literate than they were in the past, I would say he is betraying his academic origins. He is not aware of what is out there. He has not tried to hire anybody lately, to try to find somebody who can write a coherent paragraph, who can spell and who knows a thing about grammar. That is not his department, that is for the provincial departments of education. However, I wish he would not make statements about the high degree of literacy of our population.

With respect to the Canada millennium endowment fund, I understand that access to these funds is not going to be based on merit but on something called need which will be defined by the bureaucrats in whatever way they choose. Now if that is wrong I would like to be corrected. If it is not based on merit then this thing is going to be a very useful educational tool because it means the young people will be taught at a very early age how to work the system the Canadian way.

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland)]

I would ask hon. members to remember they should address each other through the Chair.

[Pierre Pettigrew, Liberal, Papineau—Saint-Denis, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I will take great pleasure in addressing you. You are a gentleman and I should have congratulated you on your appointment to the Chair when we began. You know that I was very pleased by your nomination. I must congratulate you.

I would like to clarify one thing that I said. The gentleman does see a contradiction between two of my paragraphs. I did say that this generation of Canadians is the best educated one. It is the one that has developed the most skills in computers, in so many other technical aspects that were not available to us and they are doing well. I am extremely proud of Canadian youth. They are doing well.

That does not stop us from recognizing across the land that some youth unfortunately have not been well served in school or did not find in their families or in their societies the support that allowed them to go far enough in school. Indeed there are problems related to illiteracy. The government is committed to giving these youth a second chance.

[Michel Bellehumeur, Bloc, Berthier—Montcalm, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I will be sharing my time with the hon. member for Lotbinière and, following that, all Bloc Quebecois speakers will do the same with a colleague from our party.

Although I have already criticized the government since the June 2 election, this is my first formal speech in this new Parliament. While taking part in the debate on the address in reply to the throne speech, I want to thank my organizers, my supporters and especially the voters of Berthier—Montcalm, who have renewed their trust in me in a proportion almost identical to that of 1993. Thanks to them and to a wonderful team I have the honour of representing them once again in this House. They can count on my undivided attention, on my availability and on my friendship.

I must also thank my wife and my children for their support and for allowing me to be here to represent the Bloc Quebecois of course, but more importantly to look out for the interests of the Quebec people. In my way, I want to contribute, in this House, to the creation of a country that we can call our own.

As for the throne speech, the Prime Minister said it would probably be the last one before the celebrations marking the new millennium. I will tell the Prime Minister—and I hope he will also make sure of it—that we will do our utmost to ensure that this is indeed the last throne speech before the next millennium. Because what we Bloc Quebecois members want first and foremost is to have a country by the year 2000.

What does the throne speech tell us? Many things were said, but I can think of two essential points: first, all the allusions made in the two previous throne speeches of the Liberals to devolution, change, respect and realignment of federal-provincial powers have disappeared. These words are no longer used by the government.

When it started making cuts to transfers, to social programs, to health, to education and to social assistance, the government talked about devolution and about respecting the powers of the provinces.

But today, because we are seeing that there may possibly be a budget surplus, because of the slashes the Liberal government has made in these programs and because the taxpayers are in the process of getting this government out of the red, now the Liberals are back to their old bad habits.

With the expected budget surplus, they are paying out big bucks for the right to trample over provincial jurisdictions. I will not go into all of the examples there are in the Speech from the Throne, because my ten minutes would not be enough, but I will list three of them.

First, they want to measure the academic readiness of our children. Today is not the first time they are being told that education is none of their business. Mr. Duplessis did battle on this in 1950. This is not yesterday's news. It is not just those wicked separatists, that awful Bloc, who are demanding this. It dates back to the fifties.

They also make no bones about wanting to get back into manpower training. Yet I thought they had just handed that over to the provinces. Now they want to make resources available to help young people get back in the work force. That has no concern of theirs. If they have money left over in their budget, let them give it back to the provinces from whom they stole it in the last budget.

They also want to set up some ten or twelve programs with a national slant, what they call Canada-wide programs. They have been told for more than 30 years that we in Quebec want nothing more to do with Canada-wide programs. Programs from sea to sea do not apply to Quebec. But they persist.

Where I come from, in my country of Quebec, we call that provocation. This federalist propaganda whose aim is visibility over efficiency has caused the leader of the Bloc Quebecois to say justifiably in his response to the throne speech that the speech was nothing more than big federalist talk. Unfortunately, that is the sad reality.

After bringing misery to the families of seasonal workers, after cutting payments to provinces and scuttling their budgets, the hangman becomes the generous lord of the manor distributing money over the heads of the provinces. It is disgusting and hypocritical.

Now the Liberal government is realizing that it cut too much and too quickly. Why not analyze the situation seriously? Why, with the expected budget surplus, does it not mend its ways by returning the money it took from the provinces in the area of health care, social assistance and education; why does it not lower taxes, lower employment insurance contributions and reform personal and corporate income tax as proposed in the 35th Parliament, as the Bloc put forward in its proposal, which was well received?

Why not go after poverty with a vengeance, improve the employment insurance plan and reverse all the cuts that were made?

The repayment of the debt should be debated. I agree with some members who have proposed a debate on the repayment of the debt. I think we should have a very serious debate on the matter.

For the time being, however, the focus should be on health, education, employment and the eradication of child poverty during this 36th Parliament. However, for this to be successful, the federal government should not meddle in these areas. It should give the money back to the provinces, as they know much better how to use this money where it is needed.

The second element of the throne speech that stands out in my mind, and it is of particular concern to me as justice critic, is the federal government's willingness to score political points by taking the hard line with Quebec. Why do I say hard line? Because the federal government intends to continue with its reference to the Supreme Court. It will carry on with its strategy of instilling fear about what might happen following a yes victory in Quebec.

On the one hand, the Liberals praise the merits of Canada, while on the other hand, they are trying to deny one of the most fundamental principles of democracy: the right to decide.

There is worse yet, and this took place after the Speech from the Throne was read. At his swearing-in ceremony, responding to journalists who asked him if there were plans for the Canadian armed forces to take action in Quebec following a majority vote in favour of sovereignty, the new chief of defence staff, General Maurice Baril, did not reject the idea out of hand. The general said neither yes nor no, but that the political question does not arise. He should have said, in a democratic country such as Canada: “There is no question of it, it is a purely political question”. This is very disappointing in a country that considers itself a frontrunner when it comes to democracy.

There are all the strong-arm tactics that are still going on with respect to the issue of Quebec's sovereignty, and to possible consequences for them as well as for us. We never say that, the day after a yes vote, the first people interested in sitting down with Quebec would be my friends across the way. I will not say “my friends” because I do not want my constituents to hate me, but the government opposite would be the first, following telephone calls, probably from all the financiers in the world, to want to negotiate with a sovereign Quebec.

Another thing that upsets me about this throne speech is that the Liberals take credit for the entire Calgary declaration that Quebec is a unique society. We are more than that, and have been for some time. This is not just nasty separatists, or nasty members of the Bloc Quebecois saying so. I will run through a short list of premiers of Quebec who, over the years, have said more than once that we were more than the Liberals wanted us to be, that we were a people.

In 1950, during the opening speech at the federal-provincial constitutional conference—because that is the second national sport in Canada—Maurice Duplessis said: “Canadian confederation is a pact of union between two great nations”. That was in 1950.

In 1960, Jean Lesage said that “provincial sovereignty must not be a negative concept incompatible with progress. Quebec is not defending the principle of provincial autonomy because a principle is involved, but for the more important reason that it views autonomy as the concrete condition not for its survival, which is henceforth assured, but for its affirmation as a people”. So said Jean Lesage in 1963.

In 1968, Daniel Johnson senior said that “a new Constitution should be so devised that Canada is not just a federation of 10 provinces, but a federation of two nations equal in law and in fact”.

I will conclude with one last quote from Mr. Johnson, again at a federal-provincial constitutional conference, in 1968: “The Constitution should not have as its sole purpose to federate territories, but also to associate in equality two linguistic and cultural communities, two founding peoples, two societies, two nations, in the sociological meaning of the term”.

You will understand that, in Quebec, we say no, no, no and no, as the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs would say, to the Calgary declaration.

[Lorne Nystrom, NDP, Qu'Appelle, SK]

Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the hon. member who has just finished speaking.

This afternoon, in this House, the Reform member for Calgary Southwest said that he believed millionaires in this country paid too much in taxes. Is the hon. member in agreement with this statement by the Reform member?

Mr. Speaker, as you know, this afternoon in the House the member for Calgary Southwest of the Reform Party expressed the point of view that millionaires were overtaxed in this country.

What I want to know is whether the Bloc Quebecois agrees with the Reform Party that millionaires are overtaxed, that Conrad Black pays too much in taxes. That is the position of the member for Calgary Southwest of the Reform Party. Is my friend from the Bloc in agreement with that?

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland)]

On a point of order, the hon. member for Cypress Hills—Grasslands.

[Lee Morrison, Reform, Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK]

Mr. Speaker, I think the hon. member should produce a precise quote to show that any member of the Reform Party said that Conrad Black was overtaxed.

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland)]

The Chair finds it difficult to believe that that is a point of order. The hon. member for Berthier—Montcalm.

[Michel Bellehumeur, Bloc, Berthier—Montcalm, QC]

Mr. Speaker, unlike the Reform members, I find this an excellent question.

Unlike the Reform, I believe that it is not true that the rich in Canada pay too much income tax. On the contrary. The rich in Canada do not pay enough income tax. There is all manner of tax evasion. Even more than that, when it comes to such extremely important aspects as money laundering, who gains from it? Those with money. Canada is recognized world wide as the world capital for money laundering. What are the Liberals doing about it? Nothing at all.

It is almost as if they had both hands in the till themselves. The Liberals may need to wake up, and one day I will be asking them to co-operate with me—because I will be introducing a private member's bill on money laundering.

As for the hon. member's excellent question, I disagree totally with that, if the Reform indeed said it. I hope that they are not that out of touch with reality. If they did say it, however, I totally disagree with their position.

[Tom Wappel, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I am always interested in the comments of the hon. member, having worked with him in the last parliament on the justice committee. I know the hon. member to be a lawyer. Therefore I am particularly interested in a couple of the comments he made pertaining to the position of the Bloc Quebecois.

One thing I believe he said—and he can correct me if I misunderstood him—was that somehow the Liberal Party was denying the democratic rights of the people of Quebec. I wonder if the hon. member even recognizes what democracy is, in view of the fact that the people of Quebec have very clearly expressed in two referenda that they wish to remain in Canada.

It seems to me it is the Bloc Quebecois that refuses to accept the democratic will of the people of Quebec by continually ignoring the results of two referenda, going back and going back until it hopes it will eventually get the answer it would like to get. It seems to me that is ignoring the democratic rights of the people of Quebec.

As a lawyer I would like the member to explain why he thinks it is inappropriate and incorrect to seek the opinion of the Supreme Court of Canada on matters of international law.

[Michel Bellehumeur, Bloc, Berthier—Montcalm, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I too have worked with the member on a number of occasions and I can confirm that he is highly intelligent. I do not understand why he is asking such questions today.

Two things. First, I did not discuss the subject of democracy in the matter of the two referendums in response to the throne speech, but I am pleased to answer. As regards democracy, yes there were indeed two referendums: one in 1980 and the other in 1995.

In 1980, and here I will give a little course in history for those opposite who so quickly forget, the Prime Minister was Pierre Elliott Trudeau. He told Quebecers to vote no for change. Quebecers voted no for change. What change was there in Quebec? There was a constitution, which we rejected, which the National Assembly unanimously rejected, and which was jammed down our throats. It was shoved down our throats with the words “Shut your trap, you Quebeckers”.

That is why there was another referendum in 1995. In between, they had their referendum on Charlottetown, which he forgot to mention, in which English Canada said no to Quebec because it was too much, and Quebec said no because it was not enough. They forgot that across the way.

In 1995, there was another referendum where—let me finish, I will not be long—there was no winner. It was 50:50. Here again there were promises from the Liberals, which never led anywhere and never will, because the federal system cannot be reformed. Quebec's only option is to vote yes in the next referendum, it is to become sovereign.

To answer his second question, neither the justices of the supreme court nor the government opposite can stop a people on the march toward its own country.

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland)]

It is my duty pursuant to Standing Order 38 to inform the House that the questions to be raised tonight at the time of adjournment are as follows: the hon. member for Winnipeg—Transcona, Trade.

[Odina Desrochers, Bloc, Lotbinière, QC]

Mr. Speaker, first allow me to thank the residents of the new riding of Lotbinière for electing me to represent them in the House of Commons.

This new riding is the result of major changes brought on by the readjustment of electoral boundaries. The riding is now made up of some 50 municipalities grouped in five RCMs which I would like to salute. There is the RCM of l'Érable, whose main municipalities are Plessisville and Princeville which, incidentally, is celebrating the 150th anniversary of its founding; the rural section of the RCM of Bécancour, which includes the municipalities of Sainte-Sophie de Lévrard and Les Becquets; the RCM of Arthabaska, which includes the municipality of Daveluyville; and the RCM of Lotbinière, with its scenic municipalities located along the St. Lawrence River, namely Leclerville, Lotbinière, Sainte-Croix and Saint-Antoine de Tilly, and a municipality of the RCM of Chutes de la Chaudière, Saint-Lambert.

I would also like to salute the small community of Joly, where I come from. Even though it only has a population of 1000, on June 2, I became the second citizen of that municipality to get elected as a member of Parliament. The first one was Adrien Lambert, who sat in the House of Commons from 1968 to 1979.

I would now like to comment on the throne speech, a document which includes no firm commitment, except for the sad fact that the federal government intends to become a very centralizing entity.

This piece of federalist propaganda clearly shows the intentions of the current Liberal government: an unprecedented invasion of areas under provincial jurisdiction.

Instead of redistributing the surplus to the provinces, which were hit hard with cuts during the Liberal government's first term of office, this government is getting ready to ignore completely its so-called partners, the provinces, and hand this money over to citizens directly, with no regard for real needs in health and education, particularly in Quebec.

No, Quebec does not want a return to the era of Trudeau, who, it will be remembered, created a Ministry of Fitness and even a Ministry of Urban Affairs; all to hamstring the Lévesque government.

We in the Bloc Quebecois are going to fight to put a stop to this sinister plan by the Liberal government.

The financial decisions of this government have even been felt directly in my riding. On August 25, 1,000 people marched through the streets in support of keeping open a seniors' residence in Saint-Flavien. The demonstrators did not understand why they were being forced to make this difficult choice.

The reason is very simple: the federal government's cuts in turn reduce the amounts earmarked by the Government of Quebec for health care in Quebec. We have here another Liberal government ploy: do everything possible to discredit the Government of Quebec, but Quebeckers are proud and will continue to support Quebec's sovereignty proposal.

I now draw your attention to employment insurance. With all the changes introduced by the Minister of Human Resources Development, what used to be unemployment insurance has now become poverty insurance.

Right now, in both my riding offices, in Laurier-Station and Plessisville, I am getting calls from people. They are worried, anxious about the approaching winter. They do not know whether they will still be eligible for employment insurance; fathers, single mothers, young people who have worked hard to get off welfare will find themselves forced back on to it. The present government supports this policy. That is unacceptable.

In recent years, the Liberals and Conservatives have literally emptied the riding of Lotbinière of all federal services. In Plessiville the Employment Canada office was closed, over local protests. Now unemployed people, students, have to travel up to 100 km to get services. Another unacceptable situation.

I am asking the Liberal government to correct this error and to restore to my riding the services to which my constituents are entitled. I am asking it to correct the errors of the past.

Whether the Liberals or the Conservatives are in power makes no difference.

Moreover, we saw last week where the interests of the Conservatives lie, when their MPs and their leader, when the Conservative MPs from Quebec voted against the existence of the Quebec people. This is the party that wanted to win over Quebeckers during the last campaign by pretending to be there to defend our interests. The Conservatives shed their disguises this past week. Now we know their true colours.

I am surprised, moreover, to see how the Liberal government is copying from Quebec: partnership, drug insurance, youth employment strategy—copied from Carrefour Jeunesse-Emploi. Let me tell you, the day is not far off when the Liberals are going to start talking about the sovereignty of Canada. I understand them. Try to find two federalist who agree on what federalism means. It is impossible. They are still looking for a definition, which as years go by is becoming increasingly ambiguous.

We in the Bloc Quebecois, we Quebeckers, know what we want and where we are going. Year after year, René Lévesque's plan is gaining ground. Between 1980 and 1995, the yes vote in Lobtbinière went from 37 percent to 50 percent, and in the next referendum the sovereignist vote will be even stronger both in Lotbinière and across the province of Quebec.

The minister of provincial meddling will have to find a factor other than 50 percent in order not to recognize the next referendum in Quebec because there will be an overwhelming majority in favour of the yes side.

I would like to tell you that we have hope on this side. We know we will enter the third millennium as a country, Quebec. We will get out of this centralizing government which is shackling us. Quebeckers are seeing the light at the end of the tunnel, they know that soon they will be free from the federal yoke.

To conclude, let me tell you what the Bloc's priorities will be for the years to come: Quebec, Quebec, Quebec, and Quebec.

[David Iftody, Liberal, Provencher, MB]

Mr. Speaker, I have just a brief comment. I listened with great interest to the points made by the previous speaker from the Bloc. Those members often use, as did this member, notions of democracy.

I noticed with great interest only a few days ago that the hon. member from the Bloc spoke about cuts to government funding and services. He used great emotion and passion to make speeches that a sovereign Quebec would not have these kinds of problems. The poor would be taken care of. The students who he talked about would have free education. The thousand people who rallied in the streets would never occur in the promised land of the separatists.

The hon. member would be aware that only a few days ago the rural municipalities of Quebec marched publicly to demonstrate against the premier. In a very undemocratic fashion he was imposing, in an authoritarian way, cuts to the municipalities of Quebec and forcing them to make these changes.

When the Quebec media asked him whether he would relent on it because it was a crushing blow, notwithstanding the marching in the streets he said “Absolutely not. I won't be deterred. I am pushing forward”.

If the hon. member wants that gentleman to be the first president of Quebec, is that what the people of rural Quebec can expect from him and from the premier of Quebec?

[Odina Desrochers, Bloc, Lotbinière, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I am stunned to hear my colleague opposite talk about this kind of imposition when, since 1993, the Liberal government has unilaterally and savagely cut transfers to the provinces, which means that if Quebec wants to balance its own budget, it is forced to unload part of its fiscal responsibilities onto the municipalities.

I would like to say to him that if the federal government paid its dues, including the $2 billion for the harmonization of the GST and the billions of dollars we have been deprived of because of the cuts, not only would we not be short of funds, but we would not be doing any unloading onto the municipalities and the Quebec government would already have a balanced budget, even before you did, a budget that would be a lot stronger than yours.

[Denis Coderre, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I do not know whether to laugh or cry this afternoon. The “It's the fault of the federal government” tape is playing once again.

I would just make one correction to what my colleague said, and I will be doing this often. There should be no talk of “we the people of Quebec”, because I am one of the people of Quebec and because 62 percent of the people of Quebec voted for a federalist party in the last election.

So, it is nice for the people of Lotbinière to have you here, but one thing is sure, you cannot talk on behalf of “we the people of Quebec”. If you want to say “we the separatists” or “we the people of the Bloc Quebecois”, that is all right, that is your problem. But we—myself and the people in my riding of Bourassa—are federalist and very proud to be Canadian and we voted over 66 percent for the no side. The community is over 80 percent francophone, and we too are “we the people of Quebec”.

I have a question for the member. I would like to know whether he agrees with his friends Guy Bouthillier of the Société Saint-Jean-Baptiste—another extremist—and Raymond Villeneuve, a former FLQ member who beats up people in Ville LaSalle in the name of an independent Quebec, when they said at a recent press conference: “We have to prepare, we have to raise an army in Quebec and be ready for any eventuality, we have to have our guns ready if need be”. Does he agree with that? Then, we can talk about democracy and decent things.

[Odina Desrochers, Bloc, Lotbinière, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I will answer my colleage, the hon. member for Bourassa, by asking him a question. Is he in favour of partition? It is the whole debate about partition that is firing up passions in Quebec.

[Jane Stewart, Liberal, Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development]

Mr. Speaker, let me begin by congratulating you on your appointment as our Deputy Speaker. I say to you how much I am going to enjoy working with you knowing that you will preside with a firm and fair hand over the workings of this Chamber. I would also like to thank you for giving me the opportunity to respond to the Speech from the Throne.

I would begin by saying how proud I am of the vision and the commitment to Canadians that we find outlined in the Speech from the Throne. I would like to say how proud I am to be part of a government that has found a way to at once reflect the priorities of Canadians but in a fiscally responsible way. I would like to say how proud I am to be part of a country Canada that is proceeding toward the 21st century with a renewed optimism, with a sense of hope and a sense of direction.

It was only four years ago when we could not say these things, when that hope and that optimism was not part of the Canadian psyche. It behoves us to reflect on how indeed we have come to the point of optimism at which we find ourselves.

I would suggest it has a lot to do with the way in which our government has partnered with Canadians. I think of the work of my colleague the Minister of Finance and his decision to include Canadians in the budgetary process, to have them sit at the table in prebudget consultations to debate the issues that have faced us as we have come to be able to manage our difficult fiscal circumstances.

Engaging Canadians in their governance, including them, has allowed us to make the right decisions and has now brought us to a point where for the first time in 30 years our government can begin to think about the choices that we want to make to build a stronger Canada for the 21st century.

As we have identified the priorities of Canadians, we know indeed that what they want is to be able to continue to live in what is one of the greatest countries in the world, to find ways and means of increasing the democracy that has become renowned around the world.

What are the priorities that Canadians are asking us to address? They want the government to focus on children and youth. They want the government to focus on our health care system, a system that has come to define us as a nation. Canadians want us to understand work and innovation and how changes in work, and knowledge and new technologies are impacting our economy and our relationship with it.

But members can imagine how proud I am as the Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development that in the Speech from the Throne we also identify the priorities that Canadians put on aboriginal peoples. Canadians want us to address aboriginal children and youth. They want us to understand aboriginal health and the impact it is having on their communities. Canadians want us to understand the relationship that aboriginal people have with work and innovation.

Canadians understand and 80 percent have told us in a 1996 Angus Reid poll that they want aboriginal issues to be high or medium priority for their federal government. They believe that the status quo, our approach and our relationship with aboriginal people is not good enough and it must change.

Canadians understand when we talk about aboriginal children and youth that the demographics of indigenous communities are such that the populations are growing at twice the rate of non-aboriginal communities. They understand that fully 60 percent of the population in aboriginal communities is under the age of 25.

The circumstances that present themselves to indigenous people are like those that we faced as non-aboriginal Canadians in the fifties and sixties, but the hopes and the dreams that we had in the fifties and sixties are not the hopes and the dreams that aboriginal people have.

When we think about aboriginal health, Canadians know that the suicide rate for young aboriginals is upwards of five times as great as it is for myself and for members. They know that the life expectancy for them is six or seven years less than it is for us. They know that for aboriginal people the incidence of TB and diabetes is two to three times higher than it is for other Canadians and they do not accept this. Canadians believe that we can and must do better.

When we look at work and innovation and consider the circumstances facing indigenous communities, we know that the unemployment levels are upwards of 83 percent. We know that the average income is somewhere around $8,800 and falling. The circumstances are not good and the status quo, our approach is not good enough either.

As I have had the opportunity to cross the country and engage in conversations with other partners, other members of Canadian society who want to be part of a new relationship, I am optimistic about the strategies that our provinces and territories are focusing on. They believe that by supportive methods, encouraging economic development and partnering with aboriginal people we can make progress. They look at the changes they have made for example to their social assistance programs that have reduced the dependency and focused on building trampolines so that Canadians can be partners and participate in the economy. They are saying we need to do the same for aboriginal people.

Provinces and territories are understanding there is a role for them to play as we try to make life better for aboriginal Canadians. The private sector has also been most encouraging.

I think of B.C. Hydro and some of the strategies that the leadership and management of that company are engaging in to encourage a changed relationship, a stronger partnership with aboriginal people.

I think of the BHP mining company. We have diamonds in the north. The company that is opening that new resource understands it can build new resource models, new mining models that recognize that aboriginal people who are there on the land need to have access to the resources and benefit from these new riches that are now going to be part and parcel of this Canada we know and love.

Aboriginal people themselves believe that we need a new relationship. They believe that the structural relationship the federal government has had with them is not good enough. Their commitment to this change is probably no clearer anywhere than in the royal commission's report on aboriginal peoples.

I have not had a chance to publicly congratulate the commissioners of that report and I am glad to have the opportunity to do so now. There are different interpretations of the royal commission's report on aboriginal peoples. For me having read it and understood it, the underlying message that comes out of that impressive piece of research and documentation is that there needs to be structural change in our relationship with indigenous people here in Canada.

The commissioners identify that it is no longer acceptable for us to continue in a paternalistic way, to provide only programs that create dependency. They provide for us a model of a new relationship. It is very important. It says we must begin by mutually recognizing the existence of each other. We must add to that a mutual respect for our similarities and our differences. But very much a part of that model are the words responsibility and sharing. The fiduciary responsibility that we have as the crown with aboriginal people must be reflective of responsibility and sharing.

These are very important initiatives. The work of the royal commission can serve to guide us as we flesh out and build a new framework for the relationship.

We are not starting from ground zero. At this point I would like to reflect on some of the very important initiatives that were introduced to this House and in our relationship by the former Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development, the Hon. Ron Irwin. That minister identified that we did have to change our relationship. One of the most fundamental initiatives he undertook was to push us toward understanding the inherent right to self-government that aboriginal people have.

This belief is founded on an understanding of the treaty relationship, this very sacred relationship that the crown has with First Nations. When people ask me what it means to be Canadian, I can tell them to look to our very beginning, to look to the early days when the British and the French landed on the shores of our country and met the First Nations, the indigenous people.

What was our approach? It was not an approach that took us to war. It was an approach of peace. It was an understanding that through treaties, through a partnership we could all live in this great land and benefit and be productive. That treaty relationship is fundamental because it recognizes that when my ancestors came here there were governments that were working effectively and providing for their people. We agreed to write a treaty.

In understanding that, and in reading the report of the royal commission and in understanding how we are going to make life better for aboriginal Canadians we know they have to have concrete autonomy. We have to return jurisdiction so that as they find solutions for education, as they find solutions for housing, they will be reflective of tradition, of the aboriginal tradition, the beliefs, the attachment to the land.

We have increasing numbers of indications that this approach is working. Not only are we restoring the treaty relationship in provinces like Saskatchewan and Alberta but in provinces like British Columbia where we did not get around to writing treaties we are now writing modern treaties. I look to the Nisga'a agreement and the strategies that are in place there to build a strong relationship between the people of that First Nation and this country Canada. We go to the Yukon where we have indeed signed self-government agreements.

First Nations are joining together in appropriate ways to build communities that are large enough to have the capacity to structure important models of governance that will help build a strong future for their people.

There are other initiatives which were implemented by the government reflective of the structural change. We have to target and improve the capability of aboriginal communities to support themselves. The models we build have to be reflective of that responsibility.

In our new housing strategy that issue of responsibility is clear. In partnership with the CMHC money is available. The aboriginal people make contributions to the development and building of these homes.

We focus on economic development. We recognize that the old model of social assistance, a tool of dependency, is not good enough. The modern tools of economic development are ones which we have to focus on and to ensure that aboriginal people have access to the resources that have made this country great.

I think of the relationship of building strong aboriginal government with a focus on developing the capacity for a transparent and accountable aboriginal government. The importance of this is to ensure that improvement in First Nations communities will be seen, will be tangible and will reflect the needs of the members of those First Nations.

We also have to understand that we need to build a new fiscal relationship structurally different from the one we have now and more reflective of the need for predictable funding in an ocean of fiscal transfers. We have to explore the strategies of own source of revenues and taxation. We have to challenge ourselves to include aboriginal people's access to resources, mining and forestry so they something with which to develop and grow.

I am encouraged by what I see, by the comments and the directions of the leadership of our First Nations and aboriginal people. I am optimistic of the strength of partnerships that we can build between the federal government and the aboriginal people, including other partners such as the provinces, the territories, the private sector and individual Canadians.

I do not believe there has ever been a time such as now for us to find solutions, modern solutions, to a circumstance that none of us is particularly proud of, a history and a relationship that must change.

As the minister I am but a facilitator. I am one partner. Our challenge as members of this House will be to understand the roles that we as individuals can play in bringing our communities together, municipalities with First Nations. We can find strategies that we can share and that will be effective and responsible, knowing that this is the best country to live in not only for non-aboriginal Canadians but for aboriginals as well.

I implore the members of the House to work with me as we identify a new framework, a new capacity to work productively, proactively and strategically together with First Nations leadership, to build a new relationship and a strong future for all Canadians.

[Eric C. Lowther, Reform, Calgary Centre, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I thank the minister for her very impassioned comments. They are consistent with some of the comments we heard from the minister earlier.

I find these people speak from their heart. They have the ability to paint a picture which they believe in but which I do not think it is quite accurate.

I ask that they consider allowing the Canadian people to be the ones who paint the picture. The presentations which I heard this afternoon, as a new member in this House, seem to imply that we have arrived, we are there, as a Canadian people and it is now time to move on to new government programs.

I point to the throne speech with 29 new spending initiatives and very little reference to paying down the debt or relieving Canadians from the tax burden they carry.

I am concerned that they are talking about more government investment. We have had years and years of government investment and that has not done it for us. I am concerned when they talk about partnerships, because government partnerships mean that somebody is left out of the partnership. Usually the one left out of the partnership is the struggling entrepreneur whose tax dollars are paying for one who is allowed into the partnership. This is not going to stimulate the innovation and entrepreneurial drive that was referenced in the throne speech. It is counterproductive.

I ask the Liberals to consider what the Canadian people are saying and I refer them to one of their own recent polls done by Earnscliffe that points out that 57 percent of Canadian people feel the government has done a poor job in reducing government waste.

I would also point out that the number one priority for Canadians from the government's own survey is the reduction of government spending. Yet we have a throne speech with 29 new spending increases.

I want to encourage the minister and the people on that side of the House to stop misleading the Canadian people with the picture that we have arrived. I would be much more encouraged if I had heard a much stronger commitment in the throne speech to relieving my grandchildren of the burden of this national debt, giving my children the opportunity that tax relief would allow them in a more innovative and entrepreneurial environment.