Debates of Oct. 20th, 1997

Division No. 11

[Randy White, Reform, Langley—Abbotsford, BC]

Mr. Speaker, listen to the rabble over there. The people at home should hear what is going on in the House. The process by which we have to debate the bill is bad enough. It is anti-democratic.

[An hon. member]

What are the Reformers doing behind the curtain? What are they hiding?

[Randy White, Reform, Langley—Abbotsford, BC]

I want to speak on a couple of issues before I address what is wrong with the process we saw tonight.

[John Williams, Reform, St. Albert, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order. It is inappropriate for members to refer to the fact that other members are not in the House. I heard a member from the government side talking on that basis. I would ask you to mention to him to refrain from doing so.

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland)]

It is an established convention that members do not refer to the absence or presence of other members in the House.

[Randy White, Reform, Langley—Abbotsford, BC]

This afternoon I heard from one of my honourable colleagues in the Liberal government that a tax was an investment. Upon further questioning the member said that the pay back of these taxes is more taxes. It is no wonder we are limited on debate of this issue and the Canada pension. These folks across the way have some distorted understanding about taxes. They think tax is an investment. Tax is an appalling affront to Canadians. That is what it is. It is not considered an investment. I want hon. members across the way to understand that.

Being the House leader of the official opposition I am usually involved in discussions about closure, about any technicalities in the House.

Today, as my colleagues have said, we have not been involved at all. I have not been asked. The problem is not just today. How will these folks opposite operate for the next four years? They have to deal with people like me on an ongoing basis to get approval and to make the House run smoothly and quietly. An individual can only take so much. I think members across the way are running out of brownie points. This could be a pretty rough House of Commons for the next four years.

[An hon. member]

Sit down.

[Randy White, Reform, Langley—Abbotsford, BC]

One of the backbenchers as far back as one can get has asked me to sit down. That is just arrogance from the Liberal Party. I represent the people of Langley and Abbotsford in British Columbia who do not wish me to sit down. I am here to speak my piece.

I bring to the attention of the House a couple of other problems the government has. Recently the government bypassed the House of Commons and delivered bills directly to the Senate. Again it shows the arrogance of the government in its understanding of the House of Commons, its rights, privileges and responsibilities.

It is bad enough that closure is called in the House. It is bad enough that through other technical means debate on legislation such as Bill C-10 is limited. It is worse and it is appalling that already four bills have gone directly to the Senate and have not been initiated in the House of Commons.

There are more bills in the Senate than we have debated in the House of Commons. I wonder what the government is thinking.

[Jason Kenney, Reform, Calgary Southeast, AB]

It is not democracy.

[Randy White, Reform, Langley—Abbotsford, BC]

That is right. It is not democracy. Is it thinking that the people who were elected to the House of Commons to debate bills are not worthy enough to debate them? Is that what we are talking about? Why on earth does the government send legislation directly to an unelected, unaccountable body called the Senate or sleepy hollow, as I would call it.

Bill C-10 represents taxation to some Canadian people. My colleagues in the House have a right to debate it. They want to debate it as long as they feel it is necessary. It is not incumbent upon the government to limit such debate. It is not right the government should limit such debate.

The message is becoming very clear. The government whip should know it will take co-operation from all sides of the House to work on legislation. The message is coming to us loud and clear. It is not just legislation that will have a problem in the House. There are all kinds of committees, bodies and other means whereby we work together.

Surely the government does not want to work like this for the next four years. If it does, I guess it will be a long, long time in here and it will not be very pleasant.

We have requests from the government to fly all over the world. We can cancel their votes in the House of Commons. The fact of the matter is that there is such a slim majority in the House of Commons the government will be in the House a lot more than it was before, and it had better get used to it.

It looks like with Bill C-10 some people are going to end up getting taxed in this country. They are going to wonder why they were not well informed. The answer is those members in opposition who critique these bills did not have an adequate opportunity. That is the real answer to all of this. It is really too bad because I think we all came here to present lively articulate debate on these issues. I guess the government just consists of a shameful group of people who have come here to push legislation because they have a majority. One of these days in this House they will neither have a majority nor a government. I am looking forward to that day.

[Gary Lunn, Reform, Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC]

Mr. Speaker, there is a part of me that wanted to go home but I could not leave without making a few comments.

I apologize to my colleagues on this side of the House for keeping them here but it is important for me to make these comments. I can talk about Bill C-10. I have read it. I can talk about the technicalities, what the bill really does, how it will really increase taxes and how it will really increase revenue for this government, but I want to talk about what the government is doing.

I admit that I am a new member in this House. I have been here only a few weeks. I had my maiden speech prepared on Bill C-2. My constituents asked me to speak on it. It is a huge concern in the riding where I come from. I come here and I am silenced. That is wrong because we live in a democracy.

I am saying this from my heart because I really do believe this. I followed Parliament and I was going to speak on Bill C-10 Wednesday but I have been silenced. The hon. member for Calgary Southeast said I am in the line-up. It may happen today or it will probably happen on the next speaking rotation. I read up on the bill and studied the effects of taxes being raised. However, I am being silenced and not given a true opportunity to debate this in the House because of the government's tactics.

We have been here only a few weeks. I say this very sincerely from my heart. They can laugh and they can make all the rhetoric they want, but on two occasions I have been silenced. That is a dictatorship. There is no other word for it.

Why are we even here if the government just does what it wants? On Bill C-10 we could go into the technicalities of it. We could talk about how this government has the figure 70% stuck and ingrained in its brain. That is the one thing I have come to learn from both of these bills that I was going to talk about. The government will have raised the premiums by over 70% in Bill C-2.

Now when I study Bill C-10, if you want to talk about it let us do that. Prior to 1995, 50% would be included in your taxable income. Now, guess what? It is going to be 85%. It is a simple case of arithmetic, a 70% increase. Imagine that. This is not rocket science.

We can debate this bill. I know the Minister of Finance is probably off smiling and padding the government coffers where all this money is coming into. I am sure the government knows how much extra revenue this will create. This is wrong.

The government stands up on the other side time after time and says there have been no tax increases but they are all sneaky hidden tax increases. What is even worse, it will not even allow debate in this House. It just rams them through and uses any tactics it can.

I could not leave without standing up and saying that I was prepared to speak on both these bills. What I see in this House is wrong, wrong, wrong. It is absolutely deplorable what this government is doing. It is silencing the opposition. It is trying to run a dictatorship and it is going to have to be accountable to the people of Canada whether it likes it or not.

The government members can stand there and laugh but I can remind them that the Tories once sat on that side of the House and laughed too and they paid a huge price and those guys are well on their way to going down that same path.

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland)]

Is the House ready for the question?

[Some hon. members]

Question.

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland)]

Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[Some hon. members]

No.

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland)]

All those in favour of the motion will please say yea.

[Some hon. members]

Yea.

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland)]

All those opposed will please say nay.

[Some hon. members]

Nay.

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland)]

In my opinion the nays have it.

And more than five members having risen:

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland)]

Call in the members.

And the bells having rung:

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland)]

The vote stands deferred until tomorrow at the end of Government Orders.

It being 8.45 p.m., this House stands adjourned until tomorrow at 10 a.m., pursuant to Standing Order 24(1).

(The House adjourned at 8.46 p.m.)