Debates of Oct. 21st, 1997

Taxation

[Paul Martin, Liberal, Minister of Finance]

As to the answer when, Mr. Speaker, we did it in the last budget. As to the amount, we did it by $2 billion over three years. And as for whom, we did it for the physically disabled, we did it for students and we did it for poor families with children.

[Preston Manning, Reform, Leader of the Opposition]

Mr. Speaker, the finance minister professes to lie awake nights worrying about the vulnerable in our society, yet he wrings almost $2 billion a year from people who make less than $15,000 a year. These are seniors on fixed incomes, these are single parents, these are young people with their first jobs, the most vulnerable among us.

When will the minister's enlightened social conscience move him to give tax relief to these low income families?

[Paul Martin, Liberal, Minister of Finance]

Mr. Speaker, if I was implying to lay awake at night, I would be worrying about the fact that the Reform Party will take $3.5 billion out of health care. I would be lying awake at night worrying about the Reform Party which has cut $3 billion out of old age pensions. If I was going to lie awake at night, I would be worried about the Reform Party that is going to gut equalization in Manitoba and Saskatchewan. Fortunately, I sleep well because they will never take power.

[Preston Manning, Reform, Leader of the Opposition]

Mr. Speaker, the finance minister misrepresents Reform's position day after day in this House. Why does he do it? Because he is ashamed of his own policies.

The average working family in Canada today now pays more in taxes than they do for food, for clothing and for shelter combined. The minister professes his great concern for the average and low income families. When will he demonstrate that concern by taking his tax-stained hands out of the pockets of those people?

[Paul Martin, Liberal, Minister of Finance]

Mr. Speaker, the leader of the Reform Party talks about misrepresentation.

In fresh start he said he would cut the CHST by $3.5 billion. Fresh start is their program. In their second taxpayers' budget, they said they would cut equalization by $3 billion. In their first taxpayers' budget, they said they would cut old age pensions by $3 billion. There is only one level of misrepresentation and it is the Reform Party that refused to tell the truth about what it really stands for.

[Monte Solberg, Reform, Medicine Hat, AB]

Mr. Speaker, the finance minister is absolutely addicted to taxes. Here is his record. The highest personal income taxes in the G-7. Bracket creep sucking $3.2 billion from low income Canadians, almost $2 billion coming from Canadians earning less than $15,000 a year.

When is he going to reach bottom? When is he going to get the monkey off his back? When is he going to realize that his higher power is not Revenue Canada? When is he going to say “My name is Paul and I am a taxoholic”?

[Paul Martin, Liberal, Minister of Finance]

Mr. Speaker, it is going to take more than a week's break before the hon. member can come up with a decent line.

Let us take a look. The Reform Party's position is that they will not cut taxes until the deficit is eliminated. The deficit has not been eliminated. We have already begun to reduce taxes, $2 billion over three years.

The issue is, why have we begun to cut taxes? The Reform Party refuses to do it until the deficit is eliminated. Who is addicted to taxes? It is the Reform Party.

[Monte Solberg, Reform, Medicine Hat, AB]

Mr. Speaker, under this government, taxes have gone up $8 billion since it came into power. That is taxes, not revenue growth.

Last week someone in my office spoke with a lady who earns $16,000 a year. Alice called us because she had to take out a mortgage on her trailer to pay the $740 income tax bill she gets from Mr. Compassion here across the aisle. She keeps her heat at 60 degrees to hold her fuel bill down.

Instead of the usual hot air from the minister, when is he going to give tax relief to Canadians like Alice so that they can keep their own homes warm?

[Paul Martin, Liberal, Minister of Finance]

Mr. Speaker, what will happen to Alice when her old age pension is cut by the Reform Party? What will happen to Alice if she lives in Manitoba or Saskatchewan and those provinces that have to cut essential services because they have cut equalization. What is going to happen to Alice when she cannot get into a hospital because of a further $3.5 million cut by the Reform Party?

The real issue is, why is Reform trying to pass a tax cut for the rich off on gutting the social programs for the poor?

Minister Of Intergovernmental Affairs

[Gilles Duceppe, Bloc, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

Mr. Speaker, yesterday the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs suggested that the French government would have reservations about the proposed agreement between the Government of Quebec and the Government of France regarding the collection of support payments.

Can the minister tell us, word for word, the objections of the French government and indicate his sources?

[Stéphane Dion, Liberal, President of the Queen's Privy Council for Canada and Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs]

Mr. Speaker, on July 29, 1997, the French government supplied the Government of Canada with a draft text and sought its opinion.

The French government will speak for itself, but we are well aware that it wants to remain friends with the Government of Quebec and the Government of Canada. It does not want to become involved in our internal disputes.

The best thing the Government of Quebec can do is to act in good faith with the Government of Canada to bring about this agreement, which will be very good for the people of Quebec.

[Gilles Duceppe, Bloc, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

Mr. Speaker, the minister said: “The French government will speak for itself”. It does not need the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs to speak for it.

I spoke today with His Excellency Loïc Hennekinne, France's ambassador to Ottawa, who confirmed that the French government had never objected to an agreement between Paris and Quebec City, this agreement having been submitted to Ottawa, as is customary.

Why, therefore, is the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs altering reality and attributing remarks to France that it did not make?

[Stéphane Dion, Liberal, President of the Queen's Privy Council for Canada and Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs]

Mr. Speaker, I can only repeat what I said. The French government has no intention of becoming mixed up in our internal disputes.

It is up to us to reach agreement. This agreement would be good for Quebeckers. It is easily accomplished if the Government of Quebec would agree to sit down with Canada's Minister of Foreign Affairs. There is no need to play politics.

[Daniel Turp, Bloc, Beauharnois—Salaberry, QC]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs.

The Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs has his own interpretation of what a normal approval procedure is and says, without any grounds, that France is rejecting the wording chosen.

Does the minister not realize that, in diplomacy, it is not acceptable to impute intentions to a foreign government solely for partisan purposes?

[Stéphane Dion, Liberal, President of the Queen's Privy Council for Canada and Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs]

Mr. Speaker, once again this is an agreement made under the Canada-France agreement, one which has operative force and involves criminal matters, and one which must of course be made within the Canada-France framework. This is very feasible. All we have to do is work together with the Government of Quebec, and not get the French involved in our affairs.

[Daniel Turp, Bloc, Beauharnois—Salaberry, QC]

Mr. Speaker, my next question is for the Minister of Foreign Affairs.

How can the Minister of Foreign Affairs accept his colleague's putting words willy nilly in the mouth of the French government, and what does he plan to do to remedy the blunder of his colleague, the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs?

[Lloyd Axworthy, Liberal, Minister of Foreign Affairs]

Mr. Speaker, it is quite normal when there is an agreement between two countries for one of the countries to inform the other when there is a proposed agreement. We have an agreement with France under which provinces can submit subtext. We encourage them to do so. However when that subtext carries certain statements in it that it takes on to itself the right of sovereignty, we cannot accept that.

Education

[Alexa McDonough, NDP, Halifax, NS]

Mr. Speaker, right across this country, university students, faculty members and administrators are telling the finance minister that post-secondary education is in trouble and that he is making a serious mistake by cutting another $550 million out of education this year. No wonder we have skyrocketing tuitions, massive student debt and a serious brain drain.

Will the finance minister admit to his mistake and commit today to fix it? Will he establish accessibility as a national standard in education?

[Paul Martin, Liberal, Minister of Finance]

Mr. Speaker, the fact is as per a meeting yesterday, right across the country university students and professors, those who are funding universities, those who teach in the universities and administer the universities are congratulating the government for the Canada Foundation for Innovation. They are congratulating the Prime Minister for his announcement on the millennium fund.

The fact is that what the universities have said is that this government is responding to their needs and the needs of young Canadians.

[Alexa McDonough, NDP, Halifax, NS]

Mr. Speaker, I have heard of selective hearing but that beats all.

The minister knows perfectly well that his scholarship fund will not even start for three years and when it does, less than 10% of students who need help will get it.

Yesterday we learned that the minister had miscalculated, that he had made cuts he did not need to make to balance his books. Good education is the key to good jobs in this country. Will the minister cease the rhetoric, put his money where his mouth is and restore education funds recklessly slashed at the expense of Canada's students?

[Paul Martin, Liberal, Minister of Finance]

Mr. Speaker, if the hon. member would like to take a look at the 1997 budget, what she would see is that the government elevated registered education savings plans to a new level. In fact they have taken off so that parents can save for their children. We have brought in tax credits and allowed students to transfer them to other people so that they can pay for their education. We brought in a new measure to enable students to postpone their student indebtedness. This year we brought in the Canada Foundation for Innovation and the millennium fund for scholarships.

Over the last two years this government has done more for higher education than any government in this country.

Somalia Inquiry

[Jean Charest, Progressive Conservative, Sherbrooke, QC]

Mr. Speaker, yesterday the Prime Minister visited with President Boris and today I want to ask a question about Ambassador Bob, Ambassador Bob being of course Bob Fowler, Canada's ambassador to the United Nations.

Our ambassador to the world has now stated that he cannot give or will not give interviews about the Somalia affair, even though there are contradictions in his version, because he is a public servant. I would like to get assurances from the government that he will be allowed to give interviews and if not, I would like to know why not.

[Lloyd Axworthy, Liberal, Minister of Foreign Affairs]

Mr. Speaker, I think Ambassador Fowler is in a position to make those decisions based on his position as a public servant. If there is any kind of forum in which he is requested to appear he has also said that he is prepared to do that. That is following the normal procedure.

[David Price, Progressive Conservative, Compton—Stanstead, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I would like to point out to the government that there is a difference between Ambassador Bob's being interviewed on current policy questions and as a principal figure in the Somalia story.

Perhaps it is time to recall Ambassador Fowler until the cloud is removed. When will this government allow Bob Fowler to participate in interviews with the media on the Somalia affair?

[Lloyd Axworthy, Liberal, Minister of Foreign Affairs]

Mr. Speaker, I just explained that if there was a forum in which the presence of Ambassador Fowler was requested, in the past he has clearly indicated he would be prepared to attend.