Debates of Oct. 7th, 1997

Canadian Wheat Board Act

[John Solomon, NDP, Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, SK]

Madam Speaker, I am very pleased to participate in this debate on Bill C-4. As a matter of fact I am so enthused I was able to persuade my colleague the member for Qu'Appelle to share his 10 minutes. So we will be taking five minutes each on this issue.

There is an old saying that those who forget the lessons of history are doomed to repeat them. We have seen the Reform Party members stand in this House and try to give a little history lesson as it has been rewritten by the Reform Party, not quite going back to the dirty thirties where there were no marketing boards working co-operatively to market farmers' grains in this country. They fail to remember that part of history where farmers were having a very difficult struggle in this country to make ends meet but we will see what happens down the road.

In the last Parliament the NDP caucus opposed Bill C-72 which is now Bill C-4 which is before the House. We opposed it as it was originally introduced in December 1996 for a number of reasons and I want to summarize some of those reasons today.

One was cash buying. The board's great strength and its success are based on its practice of buying grain from farmers at an initial price, marketing it as a single desk seller and distributing any surplus earnings equitably as final payments. We were concerned about provisions in Bill C-72 for the board to buy grain for cash from anyone, anywhere at any time. We felt cash buying had the potential to undermine the board and as a result farmers' confidence in it.

We were concerned about governance. Given the language of former Bill C-72 we feared that the government and not farmers would control the board's destiny. For example it was not clear then how many directors there would be. Nor was it clear how many of the directors would be appointed by the minister and how many would be elected by the farmers.

My colleague the member for Palliser has outlined what changes have been made as a result of our interventions in the previous Parliament. Of course two-thirds of the board are now going to be elected in 1998.

The minister also retained the power to appoint the chair of the board of directors as well as the president of the board. This has not been changed in Bill C-4. We still support this component of the remake of the CWB.

What concerned us most was that Bill C-72 allowed for the exclusion of grains from the wheat board's jurisdiction but made no parallel provisions for grains to be added to that jurisdiction. We felt that this was clearly hostile to the board and we could not understand why this provision was in the legislation. For the information of the House it is now in Bill C-4 and we are very pleased that grains are being included as opposed to being excluded.

Bill C-72 was introduced in December 1996 but the legislation was soon overtaken by events. The minister decided that farmers should vote on whether they wished to continue to market export barley through the wheat board. In a certain sense he was experimenting with the exclusion clause of Bill C-72 even before it became law.

The barley vote occurred amid great controversy. A few farmers who were stubbornly opposed to the board had earlier chosen to break the law. Rather than sell to the board, they ran to the border with truckloads of grain. Some of these farmers and their soulmates in the Reform Party and the National Citizens' Coalition as well continued to use every available opportunity to attack the wheat board as we have heard today in the House of Commons.

The Alberta government even mounted a constitutional challenge to the board's right to buy and sell grain on behalf of farmers. The courts have now spoken, ruling in the board's favour.

But all of that is history. As we know the barley vote was held last February and the great majority of farmers left no doubt as to where they stand. Fully two-thirds of barley growers voted to continue to have the wheat board act as the single desk seller for their grains.

The Reform Party always boasts about how democratic it is, about how it believes in referenda and plebiscites as a means of making political decisions. Here is a perfect opportunity for Reform Party members. Two out of three farmers voted in favour of wheat board marketing. We might expect that Reform would now honour its commitment to democracy and accept the wishes of the majority. But as I said earlier, those who forget the lessons of history are doomed to repeat them and that is Reform's tombstone in my view.

The Reform Party rhetoric is one thing and principled action is completely something else as far as Reformers are concerned. Based on what I have seen and heard from Reformers, they will continue to attack the wheat board. They have no intention of respecting the wishes of the majority of farmers when it comes to the wheat board. I think that speaks volumes about the integrity of that party.

Finally, I want to congratulate former New Democratic Party members Vic Althouse and Len Taylor who worked very hard in the committee prior to the election being called to establish some of these major changes on behalf of the wheat board, on behalf of farmers throughout Canada.

[Lorne Nystrom, NDP, Qu'Appelle, SK]

Madam Speaker, I want to say a few words today in support of Bill C-4.

The history of the CCF and the NDP over the last 50 or 60 years has been one of supporting the Canadian Wheat Board and fighting very hard for orderly marketing in other marketing boards in this country. I am very proud to say that in the last Parliament our small caucus was able to persuade the government to come forth with a stronger bill which is why we can support this bill in principle today. At the committee stage of course we will be moving amendments to improve the bill further.

I want to put on the record that we strongly support single desk marketing in this country. It is a principle which is supported by the vast majority of farmers right across this country. We saw that recently in February 1997 when two-thirds of the barley producers voted in favour of marketing their barley through the Canadian Wheat Board, through single desk marketing.

The Reform Party is hypocritical. I do not even know if it should be called Reform. Sometimes it is the deform party. It opposes the Canadian Wheat Board and has called for dual marketing. Meanwhile it says that it wants referenda for everything. It says that it is a grassroots party. Remember the rhetoric of its leader saying that it is a grassroots party and that it will listen to the people.

Two-thirds of the people have spoken, the barley producers. And where are the Reform Party members? Are they in the House saying that barley should be marketed through the Canadian Wheat Board? No they are not. They are silent. On the one hand they say there should be referenda. There was a referendum. The farmers said very clearly that they wanted their barley to be marketed through the Canadian Wheat Board and that is the way it is going to be. Yet the Reform Party members are silent on the issue. They do not believe their own rhetoric. They do not fulfil their campaign promises.

The farmers have spoken, the grassroots have spoken, the people have spoken. Where is the Reform Party? Reformers are not listening to the people. They have broken their word. They have broken their promises. It is about time Reformers were called to task for their hypocrisy, called to task for breaking promises, called to task for misleading the farmers of this country. This is only one example of where they have broken their promises.

They have another promise. Recall. Where are those prairie MPs who said they would listen to the farmers? They should be recalled. There should be petitions recalling those prairie MPs. They have said one thing and done the opposite.

The Leader of the Opposition said “I would never move into Stornoway. No, I would never move into Stornoway. It will be a bingo hall”. Where is the Leader of the Opposition resting his head at night? Where is he dreaming at night? In Stornoway. What hypocrisy we are seeing from the Reform Party.

They are very quiet. They are ashamed of themselves. They are hanging their heads in shame. The right wing Neanderthals of the Reform Party say one thing and practise something else. It is time they were exposed to the farmers of this country. It is time they were exposed to the people of Canada.

[John Harvard, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of Agriculture and Agri-Food]

Madam Speaker, first I would like to offer my apologies for a raspy, scratchy voice. I beg the indulgence of members of the House to hear me out this morning.

Madam Speaker, I want to congratulate you on your appointment to the Chair. I am sure you will do a good job.

This being my first opportunity to give a speech in the House during this Parliament, I want to take the opportunity to say thanks to my constituents for returning me to the House of Commons for a third term. I thank them for placing their confidence in me once again.

One of the reasons I am happy to speak on Bill C-4 is because the Canadian Wheat Board's home is in my city, the city of Winnipeg. In fact many employees of the Canadian Wheat Board are constituents of mine who live in the riding of Charleswood—Assiniboine.

I would like to outline some of the changes which distinguish the new bill from its previous incarnation in the last Parliament, that is Bill C-72. I would also like to detail the proposed amendments that are aimed at both rejuvenating and modernizing the Canadian Wheat Board and putting control over its activities squarely in the hands of producers.

Throughout its 62-year history the board has been an agent of the crown answerable solely to the Government of Canada and governed by a small group of up to five commissioners. Bill C-4 provides for a big and immediate change in the way the board is governed. Under this proposed legislation a board of 15 directors of whom 10 would be directly elected by producers would govern the operation of the wheat board.

Therefore under the new bill the Canadian Wheat Board would become a mixed enterprise, and for the first time in its lengthy history it would become accountable in a very direct way to the producers it serves. This means that producers will have a larger and more direct voice in the way in which their marketing system operates. These changes are consistent with the majority recommendations put forth by the Western Grain Marketing Panel.

As many of the members of the House may recall, in 1995 an extensive consultative process was undertaken that involved literally tens of thousands of producers across western Canada. The goal of that process was to determine how best to revitalize and modernize the operations of the Canadian Wheat Board. It culminated in a set of recommendations made by the Western Grain Marketing Panel in July 1996.

While the debate among western farmers with respect to grain marketing is a sharply polarized one, it makes it all but impossible to arrive at one all-encompassing solution. The minister responsible for the wheat board has listened to the concerns of western farmers and has answered their calls for a more responsive, accountable and accessible wheat board.

The evidence is before the House today in the form of Bill C-4, an act to amend the Canadian Wheat Board Act and to make consequential amendments to other acts. This legislation proposes major changes to the Canadian Wheat Board that will empower farmers as never before.

What has changed from Bill C-72? Although Bill C-4 resembles very closely Bill C-72, there are a few changes that differentiate it from its predecessor. Foremost among these is the elimination of the interim appointed board of directors provided for in Bill C-72. This was to be a transitional measure, however the government has responded to farmers who saw no need for this step.

Under Bill C-4 the Canadian Wheat Board would be governed by a board of directors with a majority of its members elected by farmers and accountable to them. I repeat elected to farmers and accountable to farmers. This board of directors should be in place by December 1998 at the very latest. Ideally it would be in place as soon as next spring. The draft bill no longer provides for an interim bill.

The second major change in Bill C-4 is the provision that allows for the inclusion or exclusion of grains under the Canadian Wheat Board's mandate. Similar to an amendment tabled by my colleague the hon. member for Malpeque during the last Parliament, this provides that such a change in the Canadian Wheat Board's mandate can only be triggered if certain conditions are met.

If producers wish to remove a type of grain from the mandate of the board, they will be able to do so subject to three conditions. First there must be a recommendation to do so from the board of directors. Second the Canadian Grain Commission must approve an identity preservation system to ensure quality standards remain intact. Remember Canada has a great reputation when it comes to our wheat and we want to maintain that. Third if the exclusion is viewed as significant by the board of directors, a vote among producers must be held.

Similarly if producers wish to add additional grains to the wheat board's mandate, this too could be possible subject to three specific conditions. First the farm organization representing the producers of that commodity must make a written request for the inclusion. Second the inclusion would have to be recommended by the wheat board's board of directors. Third producers themselves must vote in favour of the addition. That is pretty democratic in my estimation.

These new provisions are balanced and fair both ways for either exclusions or inclusions. In either case the decision making authority lies where it should be, directly with producers themselves. The clear goal is to put farmers in the driver's seat when it comes to any future changes in what grains the wheat board markets.

It should also be noted that when Bill C-72 was originally drafted, both the Financial Administration Act and the Canada Business Corporations Act were used as models for various provisions. Subsequently it was decided that it would be more appropriate if provisions in the CWB act relating to the duties of directors and officers were the same as those in the Canada Business Corporations Act which applies to private sector corporations. Accordingly, a few revisions have been made.

Hon. members opposite might wish to note that references to employees in provisions relating to the duty of care, duty to comply, limit of liability and indemnification have been deleted. These changes will result in employees of the Canadian wheat board being placed in the same position as employees of any corporation. To me that makes a lot of sense. If they are acting in good faith and within the scope of their employment, then they would have the same protection under common law as would employees of private corporations.

As for the directors and officers of the Canadian wheat board they will naturally be required to abide by the law. They will also have the duty to act honestly and in good faith, exercising all reasonable care, diligence and skill. If they fail in that duty they will expose themselves to legal liability.

In addition to the changes that I have mentioned, all of the amendments made to Bill C-72 in the last Parliament have been retained in Bill C-4. It reflects the essence of the Western Canadian Marketing Panel's recommendations on Canadian wheat board governance and operational flexibility and also establishes the criteria and general process for making changes to the wheat board's marketing mandate. These changes usher in a new era of accountability and flexibility within the Canadian Wheat Board, ensuring that it is well positioned to compete with in the global marketplace as the dawn of a new millennium approaches.

Canada has roughly a 20% share of the world market in grain. This is in no small way as a direct result of our having a single desk seller of wheat and barely that combines size, global reach and marketing clout to bring about the best possible returns from its world markets. Because of the not for profit nature of the Canadian Wheat Board the cost to farmers for the premiums commanded by the board amount to mere pennies per bushel. This is well worth reiterating.

[Jason Kenney, Reform, Calgary Southeast, AB]

Madam Speaker, on a point of order. I understand that the member is at least three minutes over his time. Every member has been tightly constricted in the debate, including the Leader of the Opposition. I would ask that the Chair enforce the time limits on this debate.

[The Acting Speaker (Ms. Thibeault)]

As far as I know, there is no problem on the time. Everything has been according to the chronometer. The member has 10 minutes.

[John Harvard, Liberal, Charleswood—Assiniboine, MB]

Madam Speaker, I understand that I have only a few seconds left. After all, I was given 10 minutes as everyone else was.

I look forward to this bill's moving on to committee and I am sure that it will be vetted and examined there very closely and we will have a vigorous debate.

[Bill Casey, Progressive Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

Madam Speaker, I would like to congratulate you on your elevation to your new position.

I say to my constituents that this is the first time I have had a chance to speak at any great length in the House and I really appreciate being returned to the House after a short vacation of three and a half years. I am certainly pleased to be back and I will do my best to represent their interests.

Bill C-4, the Canadian Wheat Board bill, is a difficult issue. It is very complicated and there are a lot of stakeholders and many positions, as my colleague from Brandon—Souris reported a while ago. The government had to take a position on this issue.

There are four options available. It could get rid of the Canadian Wheat Board altogether which 37% of farmers recently voted in favour of, quite an astounding vote to toss the wheat board out completely. This certainly expresses a great deal of frustration and anger for 37% of the people to say throw it away and we will go our own way.

The second choice would be to leave the status quo, and I do not thank anyone agrees that is a realistic possibility. The third option would be change the board and have influence from the primary producers, and this is what Bill C-4 does.

We would have preferred some voluntary participation so that farmers would have a choice. How would the fast food industry react if a small group or majority group of fast food operators said that all fast food operators would operate a certain way without choices? This would not be acceptable. It would be the same with the steel industry and with the fishermen in my part of the country. If a majority of fishermen said they were going to sell their fish and produce to a certain group of people and that the rest of the fishermen would have to comply, it would not be acceptable.

Farmers should have an option. It should be voluntary participation in the Canadian Wheat Board like every other industry. This goes well with the general direction of global economy and privatization.

We are willing to support certain aspects of this bill but we will require amendments. We will be making positive amendments, not nuisance amendments. One area we are concerned about is the inclusion clause. We do not understand it nor do we understand the purpose of it. There is no support from the farmers we have talked to. It seems to be a backward step in the age of global economy and privatization.

The exclusion clause is positive and it does acknowledge the needs and the desires of some people to have voluntary inclusion in the program. But it is very complex and vary cumbersome to implement the exclusion clause. We would like it made a little more flexible and available to more people.

Ten out of fifteen people on the board of directors are from the industry. Four of the fifteen members and the CEO will be appointed. The previous speaker said he wanted to put farmers in the driver's seat. If we are going to put them in the driver's seat why do we not let them drive and have all of the board members from the industry rather than just ten?

In Ontario the industry drives the system. In the Ontario Wheat Board all members are elected. We do not see why the members of the Canadian Wheat Board are not also elected. The CEO should definitely be elected from the board, by the board of directors, as in any other format.

The indemnification clause bothers us. The board members are allowed to set their own pay, benefits and make all the decisions. It says, however, that they will not be responsible for any errors or omissions. This is unacceptable. They must be responsible if they are responsible for their own pay, benefits and working conditions. In any case this is still a monopoly the way it is set up. There must be accountability. The way Bill C-4 sets it up there is indemnification and there is no responsibility on behalf of the board members. With a monopoly there must be openness. There must be access to information, freedom of information and there must be accountability. We will probably put forward an amendment on that.

Another area which was brought to our attention by industry people is the contingency fund. If farmers are to take the responsibility for the contingency fund and not the federal government, why are there still five federal appointees on the board? Farmers see no place for the federal government's board members if they are to be responsible for the fund. They think all members should be elected.

There is a big hole in Bill C-4 the way I see it as the transportation critic. Transportation is not mentioned in the bill at all and there are no issues with respect to transportation. The second biggest issue in grain handling in this country is transportation. It involves every aspect of the business, rail operators, elevator operators, port operators, pilotage organizations, pool operators and the primary producers, the farmers. Most people we have talked to have indicated that the issue of transportation is equal to all others. It must be addressed.

One aspect that is extremely cumbersome is that the Canadian Wheat Board has total control over the allocation of wheat cars. This makes it almost impossible for the farmers to have access to the cars.

It means that empty ships are waiting in Vancouver harbour and full train cars are sitting in the port of Vancouver but with the wrong product. The wheat board has determined that the wrong product should be shipped to port. It is a mistake. We think this should be completely reviewed and the primary producers should be involved in what grain goes in what train cars and is delivered to what port and when. They must play a role in it.

Another issue is pilotage charges. It has been brought our attention that pilotage charges are expensive. With new technology there is no need for these pilotage charges, especially on the west coast. In the end the grain industry pays for them.

We are pushing for a review of the Canadian Wheat Board issues and on wheat transportation issues in general. We believe the system cannot respond quickly anymore to changing market demands. There is no accountability in the transportation system in the wheat transportation business. There is no penalty for non-performance. Many market opportunities are missed because of full train cars sitting on the wharf, empty ships in the harbour and the wrong grain in the train cars.

This system is designed to fail in the global economy. It clings to the assumptions of a bygone age and it means the system cannot work. We think the system must change and we have a plan. We would like to see the new system have accountability. Farmers are accountable for delivering the right grain in a timely manner. Railways are accountable for moving grain according to agreed on terms. Shippers are accountable for loading the grain at the right time in the right place.

We think market forces should be responsible. We think market forces should determine what grain goes where and when. We think those people who buy grain should determine when it moves, not the people producing it and not the people in the Canadian Wheat Board. The demand should determine what grain goes where. We think there should be just in time delivery so farmers do not have grain sitting in elevators for months at a time or sitting in train cars at the port of Vancouver.

There are many things. We want choice for the grain companies. We want them to have choices for transportation as much as possible. We want transparencies so the rules are clear to all participants in the system. We want a reasonable transportation cost. As much as the Canadian Wheat Board is a monopoly, so is the rail system a monopoly. With deregulation and changes in rail costs coming down, the transportation costs for wheat should be coming down. They are not. We would like to see some control over costs that way.

We have a lot to say on this bill. We want it to proceed but we want it to proceed with the amendments the industry is demanding.

[Reg Alcock, Liberal, Winnipeg South, MB]

Madam Speaker, as a quick comment on the final remarks of the previous speaker, I suggest this is the Wheat Board Act. There has been a great deal of work done in the transportation department and the transportation committee on the issue of grain transportation and some of the problems in developing a truly competitive rail system. I do not think that is something contained in this legislation and we should not detract from the importance of this legislation in trying to solve a separate problem.

I congratulate the minister responsible for the wheat board for what has been a truly Herculean task. The minister has worked for more than two years consulting with producers throughout Canada. This is a service to more than 110,000 Canadian farm families. It directly affects their livelihood and you do not undertake changes to such a program without careful consideration and consultation within that community.

The minister has done a superb job and is to be congratulated.

I come from the city of Winnipeg. I do not farm. I live in an urban centre. Urban centres right across the prairies are enormously impacted by the health of the agricultural community. The large grain companies and the wheat board itself are located in Winnipeg along with the commodities exchange and a host of suppliers that make their living on the effectiveness of the work done in the farming communities around the urban centres.

I would like to focus in my remarks today on the whole issue of accountability and democratization. The minister has made a very prudent step in his move to open up the operations of the wheat board to control five producers.

I am a little surprised by the reaction of the Reform Party. Like the member for Qu'Appelle pointed out, members of the Reform Party came into the House in the last session, in the last campaign and now in this session talking about the importance of taking direction from their voters, the importance of listening to their constituents and acting in their best interest.

I cannot think of another circumstance when it has been clearer what producers want. A small number of producers would like to see the board abandoned completely now, but a substantial majority of producers, and not 50 plus 1, want exactly the kind of changes the minister is proposing.

I do not understand what part of democracy the Reform Party does not like. A majority of members of the new wheat board will be elected directly by producers. It is unclear what members opposite are objecting to.

The board will be more flexible. It will be more accountable. Producers will have the opportunity to make major management decisions such as excluding certain types of grain from the control of the board. I was interested in the remarks of the Conservative member who referred to including certain types of grain. That member supported the exclusion but had grave concerns about the inclusion.

Is that not what democracy is all about? If we tell farmers they are empowered to make decisions following a process that consults with the producers, and as in the act a vote must be taken, what does the member of the Reform Party fear?

If a significant majority of producers vote in favour of including something in the wheat board, are they not the ones to make that decision? Similarly if they vote to exclude something, are they not the ones to make that decision? Is that not what we have heard across the floor in the last four years from the Reform Party, that we should trust people to make the decisions in their own best interests? That is what the minister has tried very hard to do.

It is a balanced approach. It is a big step. It does not go all the way to full democratization, but it certainly takes us down that road and puts control directly in the hands of producers.

The bill is about five basic principles. It is about empowering producers. It is about putting authority where producers have always wanted it.

I urge my friend in the Reform Party to consider all producers. Let us not just be concerned about a few large producers along the American border. Let us consider what the wheat board has always been charged to do along with the rights and needs of all producers. Let us trust in producers as a group to make decisions which should properly be made by them because it has a direct impact on their livelihood. The bill enshrines that authority. It enshrines the democratic process that outlines the authority those duly elected members will have in the management of the new wheat board.

I was a little surprised to hear the opposition of the member for Portage—Lisgar to the new accountability provisions. I heard him speak about the need for the wheat board to be more accountability, yet when we take that action in the bill he wants to toss it out. I am a little puzzled by that.

The board will have access to audited financial statements. It will have access to all the operational information it needs to make decisions about the proper functioning of the wheat board. The board will have control.

It has enhanced powers in its overall flexibility. The board can make the decision to include or exclude types of grain. It can make the decision about how it will market. I fail to understand the concern of the member for Portage—Lisgar.

The bill does something the government has tried to do in a great many areas, that is open up the processes of governance and hand over to people directly affected in a community the right and responsibility for the management of that entity. We have seen it with the moves in the transportation industry. We have seen it with the moves in the establishment of independent, arm's length agencies, in research infrastructure and now in scholarships. We are saying that governments can step back and can trust the community to make those decisions.

I am fundamentally amazed the one party in the House that constantly preaches this process refuses to support it.

[Jake Hoeppner, Reform, Portage—Lisgar, MB]

Mr. Speaker, it is always a pleasure to sit in the House, listen and learn, and then give the opposition some good advice and perhaps explain a term or two.

The hon. member for Winnipeg South asked me why we could not support democracy. In the last election were there only Conservatives and Liberals on the ballot? Were there not Reform and NDP candidates? When we vote on the Canadian Wheat Board, why do we not have on the ballot single desk selling, open market or voluntary wheat board? Why do we not have four options? To me democracy is a clear vote with no argument.

In committee we elected our chairman. I wanted to ask the hon. parliamentary secretary to the minister for the wheat board how he explains democracy and I was ruled out of order. To me democracy is a vote by a secret ballot, not one with a policeman standing at the door and counting fingers. That is not democracy. I have seen that type of democracy in the Soviet Union and in Eastern Bloc countries but not in democracies like Canada, the United States and Great Britain.

I am all for democracy. I am for a free vote on the Canadian Wheat Board. Everybody has hammered me because I do not represent farmers. Let us ask members across the way how many rural Liberal or NDP members there are from Saskatchewan, Manitoba and Alberta? Not very many. They cannot hold one to a dozen that we have, so they should not tell me that we are not representing farmers.

[Wayne Easter, Liberal, Malpeque, PE]

100% in Ontario.

[Jake Hoeppner, Reform, Portage—Lisgar, MB]

None, none, at all. Is it democracy to have somebody in Ottawa dictating to farmers in western Canada what they have to do, no matter what the price?

They did not listen to the latest ruling by Judge Huband in Manitoba on the wheat board court case. He said the wheat board had no accountability to farmers. It does not have to maximize prices. All it is obliged to do under the wheat board act is to move grain.

Is that representing farmers? For goodness' sake, to me that is distortion. Perhaps I am getting a little strong with my words. Maybe I had better tone down.

[Lorne Nystrom, NDP, Qu'Appelle, SK]

The farmers spoke.

[Jake Hoeppner, Reform, Portage—Lisgar, MB]

The hon. member from the NDP talked about accountability and equality. I wish he would explain it to me. When his MP pension plan is about $2 million and my farmers are starving, where is the accountability? How did the NDP vote on the MP pension plan?

[Jason Kenney, Reform, Calgary Southeast, AB]

How come he did not run in Yorkton this time?

[Jake Hoeppner, Reform, Portage—Lisgar, MB]

I wonder why he did not run in Yorkton. I do not think there were many farmers there. He needed the farmers. He wanted them to vote for him, did he not, or why did he move?

It is an interesting House in which to sit and listen to these people talking about democracy, accountability and equality. As long as somebody in Ottawa can tell us what to do in western Canada it is accountability and it is democracy. When we in western Canada send 60 Reform MPs representing all the rural areas we say what farmers need. They want a voluntary wheat board, a wheat board that can market all grain and get the best price for them. But that is not equality, that is no good, according to the government.

[Wayne Easter, Liberal, Malpeque, PE]

They voted on the wheat board advisory. They were 100% in favour.

[Jake Hoeppner, Reform, Portage—Lisgar, MB]

They voted on the advisory board. I thank the hon. member for bringing that out. I do not have Mr. Harder, the advisory board chairman, in my riding but I was interested in what kind of accountability and prestige he had in his riding. I went to the returning officer and checked the figures on the votes the Liberals and the NDP got in the two polls where Mr. Harder, the big defender of the wheat board, was working against Reform tooth and nail. The results were 25 for the Liberals, 78 for Reform, 18 for the Liberals and 72 for Reform. That is democracy.

There was a flood in Manitoba. It was very interesting when they were campaigning. All of a sudden I saw Liberals waving $5,000 cheques and saying “Vote for the Liberals and you will get compensation. Just vote for us”. There were 12 Liberal candidates in Manitoba and 6 of them floated down the Red River with their $5,000 cheques. They are gone, gone for good. That is what I call democracy. That is accountability. If we do not deliver what we say then down the river and out into the lake.

Farmers in western Canada want equality. They want accountability. They want democracy. They want the option of a voluntary wheat board, a single desk or open market. That is all they ask. When we look at the CTV- Maclean's poll, farmers are in the most honourable profession in Canada. Let us look where politicians are: right on the bottom just above lawyers. It is accountability when they are placed according to order.

It has been a real nice experience to listen to the debate today. I hope they will ask me for the judgment of Judge Huband to read how accountable the wheat board is. When the wheat board mandate is only to get rid of grain no matter what the price that is not accountability. Accountability is to get a fair market price distributed to each farmer. If the wheat board is not prepared to do that it should get out of the business. Everybody else will do it.

We can look at the canola industry, the flax industry and the rye industry. Farmers are moving them. They are getting decent prices. They are progressing. Look at the wheat board grains. They are going down, down, down. Very soon we will not have any wheat with which to make our bread. That is what is happening to wheat board grains.

We recently had a provincial byelection in Portage. It is Portage—Lisgar for the information of the hon. member for Winnipeg South. Reform got over 15% of the votes without a party to back it up, just behind the Liberals. Not only did we do well, we got rid of another two Liberal MLAs in the legislature. They resigned because they were so disillusioned with the lousy political system.

[Dick Proctor, NDP, Palliser, SK]

Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order. I am very new to the House, but it was my understanding that we were debating Bill C-4 today and not the recent byelection.

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland)]

In the opinion of the Chair the hon. member was relevant.

[Jake Hoeppner, Reform, Portage—Lisgar, MB]

Mr. Speaker, I would like to look at the last clause of the bill. If a wheat board manager or a wheat board employee is found to be in civil disobedience or is caught in a criminal act what happens to them? The liability comes back to the farmer who has entrusted that employee with the grain. That is responsibility. I have to pay the liability for the guy skimming my grain.

If I hire a man and he steals my pick-up truck and I call the police and they arrest him and put him in jail, will I have to pay the fine? Will I have to pay him for the time he spends in prison?

That is how ridiculous this bill is. It takes the liability away from the government, which is forcing this bill on farmers and placing the liability on producers. I have never heard of something like that happening in a democracy. It really bothers me that that type of thing can happen.

Judge Huband said that Parliament should look into these irregularities and do what has to be done. What did Parliament do when asked to act on these irregularities? The solicitor general lost the documentation between here and Winnipeg D division. It was gone. I got kicked out of the House because I could not believe that was possible. How can government, from the solicitor general to D division in Winnipeg, lose the documentation?

That is what this bill is about—

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland)]

The Chair rose because on that occasion, in the opinion of the Chair, the hon. member for Portage—Lisgar was straying from relevance to the bill on debate. The member has about 30 seconds to wrap up his speech. I would ask that he do so by speaking on the bill which we are debating.

[Jake Hoeppner, Reform, Portage—Lisgar, MB]

Mr. Speaker, I appreciate that very much. I know that I will get the chance in the House one of these days to get an explanation of democracy from that side of the House because I still have not found that it gibes with what the dictionary says. I would like to know who is right. Is the Webster dictionary right about democracy or is the Liberal government right?

That is what this bill deals with. Where is the accountability? Where is the equality? Where is the democracy in this bill? I do not see it.

[Gerry Byrne, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of Natural Resources]

Mr. Speaker, it has been an interesting morning and afternoon discussing Bill C-4, an act regarding the Canadian Wheat Board. It is something which the hon. member opposite from western Canada claims he knows a fair bit about. What astounds me is that he talked about democracy. I know a little about democracy and I know that this bill speaks directly to democracy.

This government has made a very firm pledge to listen to the producers. It listens to the people who are affected by legislation. That is exactly what Bill C-4 does. It speaks exactly to the needs of producers and to consumers who enjoy the agricultural industry. It is a Canadian industry. It is not just a western Canadian industry. That is why we are debating it here on the floor of the House of Commons. It is very important for us to discuss it. I honour and respect the opinions of our colleagues from western Canada, our colleagues from Reform.

We too represent western Canada. We are prepared to listen to their arguments, to their discussions and to their points. That is exactly what we are doing here today. We are referring this bill to committee prior to second reading. That is what the debate today is about. We are referring this bill to committee prior to second reading. That is the democratic process.

Referral to committee prior to second reading allows members opposite and government members to provide greater input into the substance and structure of a bill. It is an innovation that was created by the Liberal government in the last Parliament to allow opposition members and government members to provide greater substance to bills.

From the democratic point of view that is a very important point, something we are not afraid of. We are not afraid to listen to people who have opinions and want to have their opinions registered for the record.

However, we have come to a point where we are arguing—actually my colleagues opposite are arguing—whether or not this bill embraces democracy. Clearly two-thirds of the board of directors of the Canadian Wheat Board will be representatives of the producers who are most directly affected.

I understand a little something about democracy and I would suggest to the hon. speaker that clearly those who have a vested interest should be represented on the board. That is clearly what Bill C-4 does. For the first time in the history of the wheat board we will actually have representative democracy. Those producers who are most directly affected by the actions and outcomes of the Canadian Wheat Board will have a direct say in its management and its structures. That is representative democracy.

This morning the hon. member for Portage—Lisgar had to ask the question, what is democracy. I can certainly understand why he would have to ask that. He has intimated that he does not understand where democracy fits into this bill. The farmers themselves are sitting on the board of directors of the Canadian Wheat Board. They are the ones who represent the associations, they are the ones who represent the farmers and they do the best job. Two-thirds of the board of directors will be farmers and that is exactly what this bill is all about.

The hon. member for Portage—Lisgar mentioned that his farmers are starving. For 62 years the Canadian Wheat Board has been representing farmers and it has been doing a very good job. Stability in the wheat board process is very important and it is something that creates stability within the agricultural community.

We are prepared to create innovation because innovation is important. We are creating innovation within this act to respond to the needs of the day. Two-thirds of the directors of this organization will be from the producers themselves, and I find absolutely nothing wrong with that. It is quite a good bill. It is a bill that meets the needs of the wheat industry. The Canadian Wheat Board will now be more representative of those needs.

Wheat exports have been increasing recently in part because of the efforts of the Canadian government and in large part because of the efforts of the Canadian Wheat Board. We have actually seen increases in our export capability in this field. We have seen increases in revenue, in the amount of value that is created from our agricultural community. That is a very important point to add when we talk about the supposed inefficiencies of the wheat board. Where do we get increases when there are supposed inefficiencies from this structure? It is a good structure because it represents the needs of the people who are most interested in the Canadian Wheat Board.

It bothers me to address this in the House because the House deserves better decorum. However, there has been a suggestion that the farmers who will sit as members of the board of directors for the Canadian Wheat Board will for some reason be corrupt and that this wheat board legislation will protect corrupt farmers. That was the suggestion from the Reform Party. As they go around their constituencies making representations about the Canadian Wheat Board, they will suggest that the legislation allows inappropriate activity to go unharnessed and unabated.

I would like to point out the wording in the Canadian Wheat Board Act what we proposed directly follows the Canadian Business Incorporations Act and nothing more. It follows exactly what every private sector firm incorporated under the rules of the Government of Canada follow today.

When they go about their riding consultation process are they going to point out that day after day as long as Reformers sit in the House, that they have indemnity from any sort of prosecution? That is a procedure they enjoy every day.

When Reform members make inappropriate statements and members from the opposition benches make what some would consider inappropriate statements, it is the House of Commons and the people of Canada who will pay for their legal bills. That is amazing.

Reform members are discussing the fact that they feel this is completely inappropriate that farmers, those who sit on the board of directors of the Canadian Wheat Board should be completely open and susceptible to any charge or allegation, even if it comes from the benches of hon. members opposite.

There is a valid reason why we should have the same rules that govern every private sector forum in the country incorporated under the Canada business act that same respect should be given to the farmers who take the courage, time and energy to sit on the board of directors of this corporation.

I would like hon. members opposite to point out when they go about their constituency consultations that they do not want farmers who sit on this board of directors to have any protections whatsoever, to have any sort of umbrella within the Canadian Wheat Board. They should be able to do their business and not do things which are contrary to the laws of Canada as has been suggested, not to do things which are contrary to the best interests of farmers. They should be allowed to just go about their business.

While members opposite enjoy parliamentary privilege day after day in the House of Commons, they would have farmers be susceptible to prosecution regardless of how frivolous the charge. That is exactly what hon. members will not talk about as they go about their riding consultations, that they enjoy parliamentary privileges and that they will have their legal bills paid for by the House of Commons, yet they will not even extend part of that same privilege to anybody else. That is hypocrisy.

Now I come to my conclusion. Soon we will refer this to committee before second reading. It will be a great opportunity to work with my colleagues, to respect the wishes of farmers and to strengthen, not tear down, the Canadian Wheat Board. Quite frankly, I believe hon. members opposite want to weaken it because they know it is a darned good Liberal innovation and it will strengthen our resolve in western Canada.

[Stéphan Tremblay, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to speak to this bill to amend the Canadian Wheat Board Act and to make consequential amendments to other acts.

People sometimes think that the Bloc Quebecois or the other opposition parties systematically oppose everything the government proposes. We for our part support this bill. We may have a few concerns, some constructive criticism, but in general terms, we will vote in favour of the bill's being sent to committee.

I would first like to take a few minutes to send greetings to the people in my riding. This is not the first time I have risen in this new Parliament, but this is my first speech. I would therefore like to take a few minutes to acknowledge the people in my riding.

As you know this is my second mandate. I obtained 64% of the vote thanks to a fine team that stuck with me throughout the campaign, which led to a great victory on June 2. The people placed their confidence in me. That moves me deeply. And I thank them very much.

In all good faith, I would like to salute my opponents in the last election campaign, especially Clément Lajoie, the mayor of St. Bruno, a village in my riding, and Sabin Simard, the Conservative candidate.

I think all candidates ran a respectful campaign. I say “candidates” because at the party level, it was another story. When you are facing in your riding a party like the Liberal Party of Canada, I can tell you that respect sometimes goes out the window. Let me tell you I did not appreciate the Liberal Party's little destabilization tactics in the middle of the campaign.

It was rumoured that we had not risen often enough in the House, while over not quite eight months I think I had risen more than 70 times, which is quite a bit more than many members across the way. The word was going around that I attended only 80% of votes, when it is well known that one day a week, that is one day out of five or 20% of the time, I could not be here. They were trying to destabilize us in the middle of the campaign using this kind of lines. They played with public opinion by capitalizing on the fact that people are not necessarily familiar with how politics works.

Also, what I find most disturbing is how much money these political parties have available. You probably know that, as a party, the Bloc Quebecois believe it is important not to have financial ties with business or corporate interests. That is why there are no corporate donations allowed in Quebec, only public funding.

When, in the middle of an election campaign, you find yourself pitted against political parties that take donations from large corporations, I find it extremely painful to have a policy to that effect, especially considering how they get their financing. This was made obvious recently during question period.

In a word, Mr. Speaker, as I can see you watching the clock, while I will not rend my clothes over this issue, I certainly would have a lot to say on the matter, but there is nothing to worry about.

I may be upset with how things were done in the past, as I said, but fear not, I am looking to the future. In fact, I am absolutely thrilled about the future. Because the future means 44 Bloc members. It means the year 2000 and a new country. This will require a third referendum, and this time the yes side will win.

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland)]

I would ask please, that we stay somewhere close to the bill that we are debating which is of course the wheat board bill.