House of Commons Hansard #37 of the 36th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was quebeckers.

Topics

Business Of The HouseRoutine Proceedings

4:20 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland)

The House has heard the terms of the motion. Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion?

Business Of The HouseRoutine Proceedings

4:20 p.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

(Motion agreed to)

Committees Of The HouseRoutine Proceedings

4:25 p.m.

Peterborough Ontario

Liberal

Peter Adams LiberalParliamentary Secretary to Leader of the Government in the House of Commons

Mr. Speaker, it is my understanding that my second motion has all-party agreement. I move:

That the first report of the Standing Joint Committee on Official Languages, the first report of the Standing Joint Committee on the Scrutiny of Regulations and the first report of the Standing Joint Committee on the Library of Parliament, be concurred in.

Committees Of The HouseRoutine Proceedings

4:25 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland)

Does the parliamentary secretary have unanimous consent of the House to move the motion?

Committees Of The HouseRoutine Proceedings

4:25 p.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

Committees Of The HouseRoutine Proceedings

4:25 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland)

The House has heard the terms of the motion. Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion?

Committees Of The HouseRoutine Proceedings

4:25 p.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

(Motion agreed to)

The House resumed consideration of the motion; and of the amendment.

SupplyGovernment Orders

November 25th, 1997 / 4:25 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland)

Resuming the question and comment period with the hon. member for Beauharnois—Salaberry.

SupplyGovernment Orders

4:25 p.m.

Bloc

Daniel Turp Bloc Beauharnois—Salaberry, QC

Mr. Speaker, I listened carefully to the parliamentary secretary defend two of the principles in the Calgary declaration. I cannot help thinking that many Quebeckers have already noticed that the notion of distinct society has lost its value after being ruled out through the rejection of the Meech Lake accord by Canadian public opinion, contrary to the claim of the member for Lac-Saint-Louis, who wanted to assign blame for the rejection of the accord to a number of individuals and institutions.

The notion was also rejected by Quebeckers and Canadians in their refusal to permit the government to amend the Constitution according to the provisions of the Charlottetown accord.

The notion of distinct society is therefore of little interest now, and it is to be replaced with a notion even less interesting in terms of its content and scope, because it will not be included in the Constitution and given interpretive effect.

I really doubt therefore that Quebeckers will accept this notion of unique character, especially since it is not accompanied by a reform in the distribution of powers as Quebeckers wanted. Recognizing Quebec only symbolically as a distinct society or a society with a unique character will never satisfy the longstanding claim.

I would therefore ask the parliamentary secretary whether, in his opinion, it is not necessary now to propose a major reform of the distribution of powers for constitutional reform to satisfy Quebeckers.

SupplyGovernment Orders

4:30 p.m.

Liberal

Paul Devillers Liberal Simcoe North, ON

Mr. Speaker, it must be emphasized that as soon as the Liberal government took office in 1993, it started working to renew the federation. There are many examples in the area of manpower and a number of other social programs where we have worked to renew the federation to meet the needs not only of the Province of Quebec but also of the other provinces that felt that federal and provincial areas of responsibility had to be reviewed.

In today's debate, there were some members, even on this side, who criticized the government because it has gone too far. They feel that there has already been enough decentralization in this federation, but I am sure we will be continuing our efforts, because it is always possible to reach an understanding. There will be another premiers conference in December which will deal with the issue of youth employment and other important issues for the provinces and the federal government.

I agree with the member that efforts have to be made to ensure that the Constitution and the sharing of responsibilities will meet the needs of all the regions.

SupplyGovernment Orders

4:30 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland)

It is my duty, pursuant to Standing Order 38, to inform the House that the questions to be raised tonight at the time of adjournment are as follows: the hon. member for Louis-Hébert, International trade; the hon. member for Fundy—Royal, Search and Rescue Operations; the hon. member for Sarnia—Lambton, Privacy.

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4:30 p.m.

Reform

Rick Casson Reform Lethbridge, AB

Mr. Speaker, I will be splitting my time with the hon. member for Yellowhead.

The importance of today's motion on national unity is like no other. As this country approaches the beginning of a new millennium, we are increasingly being faced with growing concerns of global proportions, and now more than ever Canada is being asked to play a leadership role in many international organizations and treaties.

From our peacekeeping missions to banning land mines, Canadians have often been hailed for showing leadership. Just yesterday in the House we showed how this country can work together when we dealt with the land mines issue. There was unity within this House.

All these great accomplishments will lose their significance if we are unable to keep this country united. The world has often looked to Canadians for help in restoring peace to troubled nations. But we will be risking this international profile if we cannot manage to put an end to divisive thinking and begin reshaping our federation with one goal in mind, national unity from coast to coast to coast.

Since the signing of Confederation the dynamics of our federation have been tried and tested many times. Our system of federalism has served us well over the last 100 years. However, dynamics change over time and, like the old family car that has safely carried us on many long cross-Canada trips, an overhaul is needed. Keep in mind that the body of this old car is classic and irreplaceable. We have been emotionally attached to it but it is unable in its present condition to get us where we need to go.

Long overdue is the time for tune-ups. In fact, we know we were wrong to not fine tune the old jalopy on a regular basis and now we are faced with two choices. We can put it out to pasture and watch it rust or we can rebuild the framework, overhaul the system to get it running smoother and better than ever.

Last September nine provincial premiers and two territorial leaders started rebuilding the framework of that irreplaceable classic. The work of the provincial premiers is a good first step toward real progress on national unity.

Meech Lake and Charlottetown rejected equality of citizens and provinces and did not solicit the genuine input of grassroots Canadians.

The Calgary declaration, on the other hand, puts the equality of citizens and provinces and the need to engage Canadians in national dialogue front and centre. The Calgary declaration is not carved in stone but rather is open to changes that may emerge from extensive consultation.

In the past the differences between the provinces and the people have been magnified and we have forgotten some very crucial similarities. For example, regardless of culture and language we all want the best for our children. We all want them to grow up in a country free of political division.

It is a shame that the separatists in Quebec are trying to keep Quebeckers from participating in this meaningful consultation process. This is a great disservice to our fellow Canadians in Quebec. Their input is vital to the process and we want to hear what Quebeckers have to say as we begin this renewal of federalism.

Obvious is the reason the separatist Government of Quebec has chosen not to participate. Any constructive means to solve our unity disputes would douse the fire of separatism, leaving the separatists without a mandate.

Now is the time for Canadians to reach out to one another and embrace our diversity. Unique, yes. Distinct, yes. Equal, yes. We have always accepted that Quebec is unique. However, we believe that all provinces are unique in their own right. We favour a rebalancing of federal-provincial powers to ensure that each province is allowed to nourish its distinctiveness while the federal government's powers are strengthened in the areas of national concern.

In the past politicians have shortchanged Quebeckers with one word phrases in an attempt to appease their dissatisfaction with the federation. Why not give them the tools they require to strengthen their culture? The only stipulation we request is that those same tools be made available to all provinces to use in areas that matter most to them.

Let me emphasize that granting provinces more control over the development of their distinctiveness and the concept of equality are not on opposite ends of the spectrum. In the process of rebuilding the federation, just as the old classic family car needs an overhaul, a realignment of powers of the federal and provincial governments is needed. Instead of focusing on purely symbolic one word phrases which politicians time and again refuse to accurately define, we should focus on presenting provinces with the tools needed to develop that which makes them unique.

The concept of equality does not mean that everyone is the same. At the risk of oversimplifying the situation let me use another analogy. In a classroom if a teacher hands out identical boxes of supplies to each student and tells them they are to make a project using those supplies, it stands to reason that no two projects will be identical. The creative processes vary from student to student as each places different importance on how to use the supplies based on each student's vision of what their project will encompass.

In the federation equal does not necessitate identical. It would be unrealistic to expect the provinces to exercise their powers uniformly. Rather, the provinces will have equal powers to try what is best suited for their traditions, their character, their education, social services, and the list goes on, all the while keeping in mind adherence to national standards guidelines. Canadians need to feel free to come forward and offer solutions and ideas on how to improve the federation and how their province should diversify and nurture its distinctiveness.

It would be wise for all levels of government to view the separatist movement in Quebec as a wake-up call to improve our federal system. In the spirit of co-operation that was demonstrated in the Calgary declaration, respecting differences and allowing provinces more power to develop their unique societies will foster unity in this country.

Earlier today a member of the Bloc stated that western Canada could not handle Quebec's distinctiveness. I encourage the member of the Bloc to listen to what we are saying. We are well aware that the Bloc and the Parti Quebecois are determined to undermine any national unity plan because that would put an end to their singularly divisive political agenda. I encourage that member of the Bloc to visit our province. He will be pleasantly surprised to find out that we embrace our differences. Perhaps he might like to visit some of our francophone communities.

In my constituency of Lethbridge our school system has a very strong French immersion program. It began in 1975 and continues to teach children the beauty of distinctiveness, distinctive culture and the value of learning new languages, including French.

I recently received a letter from the mayor of Lethbridge regarding a set of resolutions formed by the city council of Lethbridge on the issue of the possibility of Quebec's seceding from the federation. The Lethbridge municipal council has taken an interest in this issue because its sister city is Saint-Laurent, Quebec.

The positive relationship between Lethbridge and Saint Laurent has steadily grown over the years, highlighted by youth, cultural and linguistic exchange programs. As we face the possibility of yet another referendum it is now more significant than ever to reach out to our respective sister cities and remind our fellow Canadians how much we cherish their friendships and the friendships that have developed from these exchanges.

With most of this discussion of separatism focusing on our differences it is imperative that we regain perspective and remember how much we share in common.

The responsibility of conveying this commonality must also be shared by federal, provincial and municipal representatives as well as with individual Canadians who wish to help keep this great country united.

I commend the city council of Lethbridge for presenting such positive resolutions and for acting to help its fellow Canadians in Quebec who wish only for improvements to the federation and not for separation.

In a recent poll in my constituency over 80% of respondents believe that making federal institutions more accountable is the best route to solving Canadian national unity problems. Nearly two-thirds who responded agreed that realigning more powers to the provinces, precisely what Quebec has long asked for, is the key to keeping this country together.

I feel strongly that if we persevere to keep Canada united we will indeed enter the 21st century with new found confidence and prosperity.

I urge all Canadians to contact their municipal, provincial and federal representatives and to continue communicating with our sisters and brothers in Quebec. Let us keep our Canadian family together once and for all.

SupplyGovernment Orders

4:40 p.m.

Bloc

Maurice Godin Bloc Châteauguay, QC

Mr. Speaker, I listened to our colleague speak about the Calgary declaration. I would simply like to remind him of several points. First of all, the sovereignty of Quebec, once again, is not a problem, it is a solution. I would just like to inform him that Quebec as such is not a province like the other provinces and that it will never be like the other provinces. The Province of Quebec is the cradle of this great Canada. The development of this great Canada did not begin in the west and move east, but began in the east and moved west.

The hon. member says that we are all people who are identical and the same, but there are differences. I would like to point out to him that the difference is greater between Quebeckers and anglophones in other provinces than between anglophones in Canada and Americans. Therefore if, according to him, we are all the same and we should all be in the same boat and be identical, I would like him to tell us whether he would prefer that Canada simply join the United States. Why would he not agree that Canada should simply join the United States? Because Canadians are different from Americans, because Canadians want to keep their culture.

If he considers it is good that Canada does not join the United States, why not allow what would be a good thing for us, Quebeckers, that is to be who we are and what we want to become?

SupplyGovernment Orders

4:40 p.m.

Reform

Rick Casson Reform Lethbridge, AB

Mr. Speaker, I thank the member for his question.

I think that is what we are trying to get across here. It is that we are not all the same. Every province has its own uniqueness. We are saying that we would like to give the provinces the powers to develop those differences and that uniqueness while staying in Canada.

As the hon. member said, I certainly would not support any move for Canada to join the United States. That is a poor analogy.

We are saying that we are different. Let us give the provinces the power and ability to enhance those differences while staying in Canada.

SupplyGovernment Orders

4:40 p.m.

Liberal

Alex Shepherd Liberal Durham, ON

Mr. Speaker, I listened with intent to the member's speech. I thought he gave a very good speech. Sometimes we do not have the opportunity to praise each other in this House. Perhaps we should do that more often. It is interesting that of all his colleagues, he is one of the few whom I have actually heard defend the concept of having national standards in this country.

I think that sometimes we get involved in the issue of devolution and do not look at what is behind it. Presumably the theory is that the closer the government is to the people, the better the administrative services. Does the hon. member for Lethbridge feel that programs administered out of Edmonton would be superior to a local CEC office in Lethbridge which would deal directly with the people?

I wonder if the hon. member could think of things which are under provincial jurisdiction which would be better handled on a national basis.

I visited a softwood lumber forestry operation in British Columbia which was very close to the Alberta border. I was surprised how every province in this country competed against each other. The net result was that the Americans were able to plot province against province to create a quota system. In fact, what we should have been doing was talking with one voice in international trade.

I wonder if the hon. member could comment on some of those items.

SupplyGovernment Orders

4:45 p.m.

Reform

Rick Casson Reform Lethbridge, AB

Mr. Speaker, I will tell the member that my background is in municipal politics. I came through that route to this House. That level of government is closest to the people. We are with them every day. We are not removed from them.

I have always had the feeling that the government which is closest to the people should be the government to deal with them. The government that is most able to deliver whatever service it is, whether it be a social service or a matter having to do with interprovincial trade, should be the government to handle it. I agree with the member that barriers to interprovincial trade is another debate entirely.

There should be a strong central government in Canada to handle national issues, such as defence. However, services should be moved down the line into the provincial realm and even into the municipal realm.

We have municipal councils and governments in this country which can handle a lot of the services which are required. They know the people, they—

SupplyGovernment Orders

4:45 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland)

I am sorry, but the hon. member's time has expired.

Resuming debate, the hon. member for Selkirk—Interlake.

SupplyGovernment Orders

4:45 p.m.

Reform

Howard Hilstrom Reform Selkirk—Interlake, MB

Mr. Speaker, I was not slated to speak, but I would like to say a few words about this unity issue.

I fully support the motion.

In the riding of Selkirk—Interlake, we have a very significant number of French-speaking people. Manitoba has traditionally had a large French-speaking population and we have always supported national unity.

I guess there are no provisions for me to allow the alternate speaker to speak.

I would like to take this opportunity to give the House an example of what has gone wrong in the unity debate over the years and get back to the idea that consultation—

SupplyGovernment Orders

4:45 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland)

Excuse me. With unanimous consent, any hon. member can yield to any other hon. member. If the hon. member for Selkirk—Interlake wishes to sit down and yield the remainder of his time to another hon. member, that can be arranged with unanimous consent.

SupplyGovernment Orders

4:45 p.m.

Reform

Howard Hilstrom Reform Selkirk—Interlake, MB

Mr. Speaker, I would ask for that because I have made the point that I fully support this motion and I will certainly share my time with my hon. colleague.

SupplyGovernment Orders

4:45 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland)

Does the hon. member for Selkirk—Interlake have unanimous consent?

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4:45 p.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

SupplyGovernment Orders

4:45 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland)

On debate, the hon. member for Yellowhead.

SupplyGovernment Orders

4:45 p.m.

Reform

Cliff Breitkreuz Reform Yellowhead, AB

Mr. Speaker, I thank my colleague from Manitoba for giving up some of his time so that I could speak.

I am pleased to speak on the issue of this whole business of uniting our country.

I am greatly perplexed and disappointed that after 30 years of all kinds of wrangling, this whole business has not yet been resolved. Actually, I am not surprised that an agreement to our national dilemma has evaded us. Hopefully this will become evident in my comments.

After all this time, energy, money spent and lost opportunities, where are we in our national debate? Where are we in our national discourse on the Quebec separation issue? After all these talks, where are the results? After three decades have our discussions led to new goals and a new vision for our country? Have we as Canadians developed a sense of patriotism toward our homeland? The questions beg the answers.

Indeed, our country certainly seems to be in a quandary. For almost two generations our country has been adrift like a rudderless vessel on a stormy sea, tossed hither and yon by the forces of deceit, dishonesty, deception and destruction and all the time undergirded by the contradictions of apathy and appeasement and all the time bringing our nation closer to the brink of disaster where the very fibre of our country is being stretched to the breaking point.

Through all these years what really has the fuss been all about? What has been that elusive thing that seems to be beyond our reach and our grasp? Has the 30-plus years of a one-sided debate centred around the issue of equality, the equality of provinces or the equality of citizens? Has the debate been centred on the devolution of federal powers? Has the ongoing debate been about the building of a new Canada? Or, has this long, drawn out debate, unbalanced I may add, centred around the rebuilding of Canada based on the two founding nations concept and its ill-conceived child, a distinct society?

Is that what the debate has been about? It certainly seems to me that that is precisely what the debate has been about for about 30 years. Debate has been about the notion of two founding nations, two societies based on language and culture, on French and English, on making one language and culture in Quebec, on making Quebec a distinct society.

It should be no surprise, based on these concepts, the concepts of two societies and a distinct society for one of them, that the whole notion was doomed to a dismal failure. The focus has been misguided and the mark was missed completely.

The outcome of the two nations concept was predicted 35 years ago by a former Alberta premier when he stated “You talk about this two nations idea long enough and that is probably what you will end up with”. Just look around. Some would say that is pretty much where we are today.

The two nations concept and its manifestation, distinct society, produced the idea that confederation was to serve the ends of two language groups, French and English. If we follow that kind of reasoning to its logical conclusion, what do we come up with? It would mean that Canada would not really be a federation of 10 equal provinces at all but consist instead of two societies, one being a distinct society, Quebec, and the other nine provinces combined to be the other society.

The spokespeople for the old line federal parties argue that to put such a clause in the constitution would be to merely recognize the sociological fact that Quebec is the homeland of the French language and culture and that Quebec has its civil code which is of course distinct from the English common law. No one can dispute these sociological facts. They are there for everyone to see, but that is largely irrelevant. It is irrelevant to the debate on whether this kind of clause ought to be in the constitution.

The problem arises when describing these sociological facts, civil code, French language and culture, denominational schools, with a broad brush definition like distinct society and to put these words in the constitution.

This is the nub of it. If we put Quebec as a distinct society in the constitution, we are then asking the courts to give those words meaning. There is no constitutional basis or constitutional history to give support and credibility to the concepts of two founding nations and distinct society. No Fathers of Confederation, not even the French speaking Fathers of Confederation, said anything of two nations and distinct society. They talked very little of language as well.

There is no ringing declaration in the BNA Act that Canada wants to be a bilingual and bicultural country. Nothing in the Constitution of 1867 suggests bilingualism or biculturalism. There is one important section in that act on language. It is section 133 which states that English and French may be spoken in the House of Commons and in the courts established by the Government of Canada, in other words the Supreme Court and the federal courts, and that the two languages may be used in the National Assembly in Quebec. Subsequent language and cultural laws came much later under the hand of Mr. Trudeau, with little constitutional basis for it until provided for in the Charter of Rights and Freedoms in 1982.

Entrenching distinct society in the constitution for Quebec would encourage provincial governments and that province to carve out more jurisdictional areas unavailable to other provinces. For example, Quebec could establish its own radio and television commission.

The great constitutional expert Eugene Forsey wrote that Quebec could assume powers in banking, copyright, patents, railways, citizenship, criminal law, foreign affairs, plus others possibly, if the distinct society clause would be entrenched in the constitution. Legislation will be passed and when challenged by the courts, Quebec will argue “This is a necessary ingredient for us. We must have that because we are a distinct society”. Quebec marches onwards toward separation a phenomena dubbed as incremental separatism.

There is a much better resolution to this issue of unity. It will ensure that legitimate constitutional aspirations of Quebec are met.