House of Commons Hansard #29 of the 36th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was gst.

Topics

SupplyGovernment Orders

3:40 p.m.

Reform

Jake Hoeppner Reform Portage—Lisgar, MB

Madam Speaker, what I would like to point out to the member is that this tick is very dangerous. If there are enough of those ticks they will not just keep on sucking that red blood, that Liberal blood as we would say, in the tax system, they will kill the animal or the person. The worst of it is that the tick is not that bad. The pain is not that bad. But we have the darn mosquito that continually sucks that red blood. It continually acts like a tax collector. The more it has, the more it wants. It becomes habitual.

When there are little ponds sitting around that are kind of stale that seems to really attract those suckers. It seems to be what also attracts the Liberals: “If we can find an elephant or some industry that we can keep sucking, let us do it”. When there is a bankruptcy, the Liberals' philosophy is that it will create another job. Their philosophy is that some other sucker will come along.

It does not seem to be working too well because the provincial Liberal governments have been falling by the wayside like the mosquitoes and ticks when we start swapping them left and right. That is what is going to happen in the political field as far as the federal Liberals and politics are concerned. It happened to the Conservatives who invented the GST. Now the Liberals are trying to take credit for inventing it. I do not know what the deal is here but I imagine they are hoping that will give some credence to the Conservatives with their philosophy and hope that maybe some day they can swap some seats again. However, I am afraid it is getting late in the day and these tax suckers, these mosquitoes, will finally kill themselves.

Business Of The HouseGovernment Orders

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Bob Kilger Liberal Stormont—Dundas, ON

Madam Speaker, I have three motions to table, subsequent to discussions among all parties. I ask for unanimous consent to do so.

You will find that there is unanimity on the following motion:

That, at the conclusion of today's debate on the Opposition Motion, all questions necessary to dispose of this motion be deemed put and a recorded division be deemed requested and deferred until Tuesday, November 18, 1997, at the expiry of the time provided for Government Orders.

Business Of The HouseGovernment Orders

3:45 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Ms. Thibeault)

Does the hon. whip have the unanimous consent of the House?

Business Of The HouseGovernment Orders

3:45 p.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

Business Of The HouseGovernment Orders

3:45 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Ms. Thibeault)

Carried.

(Motion agreed to)

Business Of The HouseGovernment Orders

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Bob Kilger Liberal Stormont—Dundas, ON

Madam Speaker, I have an additional motion, following the discussions among all the parties.

That, not withstanding any Standing Order, with respect to Government Order, Government Business No. 4, on November 17, 1997, the House shall continue to sit until no member wishes to speak, whereupon the question shall be deemed to have been put and a division requested and deferred to the conclusion of the time for the consideration of Government Orders on November 18, 1997, provided that during this debate, no dilatory motion nor quorum call shall be received and provided that, if it is necessary for the purposes of this Order for the House to sit after the ordinary time of adjournment on November 17, 1997, there shall be no proceedings pursuant to Standing Order 38, on that day.

Business Of The HouseGovernment Orders

3:45 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Ms. Thibeault)

Does the hon. whip have the unanimous consent of the House?

Business Of The HouseGovernment Orders

3:45 p.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

Business Of The HouseGovernment Orders

3:45 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Ms. Thibeault)

Carried.

(Motion agreed to)

Business Of The HouseGovernment Orders

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Bob Kilger Liberal Stormont—Dundas, ON

Madam Speaker, it is unanimously moved:

That the Parliament of Canada congratulate new Formula One world champion Jacques Villeneuve and highlight his contribution to enhancing our national pride worldwide.

Business Of The HouseGovernment Orders

3:45 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Ms. Thibeault)

Does the whip have the unanimous consent of the House to motve the motion?

Business Of The HouseGovernment Orders

3:45 p.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

Business Of The HouseGovernment Orders

3:45 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Ms. Thibeault)

Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion?

Business Of The HouseGovernment Orders

3:45 p.m.

Some hon. members

Yes.

(Motion agreed to)

The House resumed consideration of the motion and of the amendment.

SupplyGovernment Orders

November 6th, 1997 / 3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Denis Coderre Liberal Bourassa, QC

Madam Speaker, I am always greatly pleased to participate in these debates and today we are obliged to respond to this Bloc motion, with which they are trying once again to cause instability.

When one is a member of the Bloc, things are easy. One makes all sorts of motions. All that one has to do is to say it is the federal government's fault—

Today we are talking about harmonization, and, once again, the Bloc Quebecois is looking for a lifeline. With all they have done in recent weeks, the issues of the biker gangs and drinking water, their flailing away in the water, they are looking for something to cling to. They think they have found one more life raft to cling to called the harmonization of the GST and the QST, and they say they need compensation.

I am not an economist, but I know how to count. In 1990, the governments of Quebec and Canada announced they had signed an agreement. In agreeing to harmonize, they realized over the years that revenues increased by over $2 billion.

You seek compensation because you have been misled. You seek compensation because you have lost something. Perhaps they lost their credibility, but for sure Quebeckers gained a lot.

They started by setting up a Quebec sales tax. This tax cost them over $1.3 billion. They understood that harmonizing would make things a lot more attractive for businesses. They would become more competitive. What happened? Harmonization was indeed a positive thing.

They are still going after the government, and we certainly know why they are. Why? Simply because elections are coming up in Quebec. We have seen the disastrous state the PQ government is in. It does not know how to administer its own funds and has to come up with something. They need to find ways to get elected.

What is in the PQ separatist stew every time? It is the federal government's fault. In order to win votes, they say it is the federal government's fault.

We had a federal election in 1997. What happened? In 1997, the Bloc Quebecois lost 500,000 votes and 11 seats. If the Bloc were so strong, if it had the absolute truth, it would have won.

SupplyGovernment Orders

3:50 p.m.

Bloc

Yvan Loubier Bloc Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC

You lost your majority.

SupplyGovernment Orders

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Denis Coderre Liberal Bourassa, QC

We won in terms of votes and in terms of seats.

If an election were held tomorrow morning, the Bloc Quebecois—and I am quoting our friend Jean Lapierre, the former Bloc member, who says the Bloc has no reason to be in Ottawa—would take quite a beating. It would disappear from the political map.

In 1993, it was passion that brought Bloc members here. In 1997, it is pensions, because they have no other reason to be here. Year in year out, they look for reasons to save their leader's political life. They have to apologize. They always have to say that errors of judgment were made. We saw that.

On what was said about biker gangs, I personally would have been ashamed. It is sad, so sad. And when we get back to the economy, they show us once again that it is just a shot in the dark.

One thing is certain: we were right and, to paraphrase what my good friend and colleague, the hon. member for Outremont, said, our government acted without engaging into partisan politics. When we choose to protect the interests of Quebeckers and all Canadians, we can see that we are doing something positive. Why? Because we have the figures to prove it.

In 1991-92, Quebec's revenues increased by 20,4%; in 1992-93 by 17.4%; in 1993-94, by 9.1%. It is with this money that, together, we can help improve people's quality of life.

I took some courses in economics. My knowledge of macroeconomics tells me this is positive. Even editorialists agree. However, when one has nothing to say, when one constantly tries to justify one's existence, we end up having to put up with things like this. I find it most unfortunate.

The figures speak for themselves. When Reformers take the floor, all Canadians start laughing. Flip-flaps, flap-flops, flip-flops, you name it, they do it all.

In 1990, when, unfortunately, a Reformer was elected for the first time, he said “We will scrap the GST”. In 1991, the current leader of the official opposition changed the Reform Party's position on the GST. He said:

It could not be repealed because it would increase the deficit, but in public speeches the Leader of the Opposition talked about applying part of it to the debt, which would keep it even longer.

In 1992 the Reform changed its position again, saying that it would reduce the GST in stages after the budget was balanced. In 1994 in the finance committee minority report on the GST the Reform Party supported harmonization.

I do not understand. On the one hand, they are saying it is terrible, that we are trying to buy Canadians. On the other hand, they keep changing their minds.

Do you know why we have been elected? Because we look after the interests of Canadians and we have a consistent policy. When we all work together as partners with the Quebec government, when the separatist government understands that we have to co-operate in the interests of Canadians, we all benefit from it. Statistics confirm this. More improvement is needed. There is always room for improvement. I hope we will keep on improving things, but, at some point, we have to stop talking about allegations and stick to the facts.

What we want to do is make sure Canadians can have a decent living. Our policy has been effective. Thanks to its revenues and good management, the Canadian government will finally balance its budget. All countries that are members of the OECD and other countries throughout the world speak about the Canadian miracle. We will balance the budget because everything is going just fine, with increasing revenues and good management in the government. Obviously, we will then look for ways to ease the tax burden. I will certainly be doing that. We have demonstrated that we were a responsible government, we have made the right decisions, and that is what Canadians think also.

Later on, we will have to look for the means to make our businesses more competitive. Facts prove it: compensation would mean losses. Once more, Quebec has had a winning partnership with the federal government. Despite all the partisanship of the Bloc Quebecois, we realize one thing: when Canadians and Quebekers are given the facts, they understand that the federal government has looked after their best interests.

SupplyGovernment Orders

3:55 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Ms. Thibeault)

The hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre, for questions and comments.

SupplyGovernment Orders

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

Denis Coderre Liberal Bourassa, QC

Madam Speaker, excuse me but I had said that I would share my time with the hon. member for—

SupplyGovernment Orders

3:55 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Ms. Thibeault)

Yes, that is the information that was received by the Chair, and that is what was understood.

SupplyGovernment Orders

3:55 p.m.

NDP

Judy Wasylycia-Leis NDP Winnipeg North Centre, MB

Madam Speaker, I have a question for the hon. member. He talked a great deal in his speech about inconsistency and hypocrisy on the part of others in the Chamber. Certainly when it comes to understanding the Reform Party there is some merit to his argument.

However, if we are talking about inconsistency, where there is the greatest question, it comes down to the Liberal Party.

How could the member make those comments in view of his party's record with respect to consistency or lack thereof on the GST? In 1993 his leader, the prime minister of the country, said the GST would be gone within two years. Now, four years later, it is still with us. In fact it is being expanded and harmonized in terms of provincial sales tax in parts of the country.

How is it consistency in terms of Liberal policy when we have such obvious gaps and discrepancies in income tax policy and such unfairness in the whole system?

How does the member find it consistent that we have a situation before us today whereby Revenue Canada has allowed a family trust of $2.2 billion in assets to be moved to the United States, thereby avoiding taxes?

How is it consistent that we have today in Canada close to 8,000 Canadians with incomes over $100,000 paying no tax?

How could it ever be consider consistent to have untaxed corporate profits amounting to somewhere in the neighbourhood of more than $41 million every day?

How is it consistent to see such discrepancies in terms of the burden being shifted more and more to low and middle income Canadians and to see such wealthy individuals and such large corporations avoiding paying any taxes at all?

SupplyGovernment Orders

4 p.m.

Liberal

Denis Coderre Liberal Bourassa, QC

Madam Speaker, I would like to know where the member was when we were grappling with the economic mess and succeeded in taking this country out of that slump.

We acted with transparency. We were stuck with a $42 billion deficit. We have a debt to control. We acted responsibly and with speed and, moreover, we will reach a zero deficit in 1998.

SupplyGovernment Orders

4 p.m.

Liberal

Marlene Jennings Liberal Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, QC

Madam Speaker, there is a really unpleasant aspect in the opposition motion presented today. It is something that is worse than the false claim that an injustice was done to Quebec when it harmonized its sales tax with the GST.

Once more, the Bloc is trying to convince Quebeckers that they are victims of Canadian federalism. But Quebeckers are neither victims, as the Bloc claims they are, nor fools.

Quebeckers established a dynamic and strong society within the Canadian federation. This explains why recent polls clearly show the failure of the separatists' strategy based on lies and fairy tales.

The truth is the country we built together is an incomparable success, as is evidenced by the United Nations' statistics that show, year after year, that Canada is the best country in the world to live in.

Even on the issue of the financial advantages of federalism, the Bloc is mistaken when it describes Quebec as a loser. The facts are clear.

Let us start with today's motion. This motion claims that Quebec is treated inequitably because it did not get billions of dollars as compensation for harmonizing its sales tax with the GST.

In this, the Bloc is echoing its provincial masters. It espouses the position of the Parti Quebecois government. But I would say to members of the Bloc that we are getting close to year 2000 and that in a couple, one member is no longer subject to the will of the other, nowadays.

The Quebec government referred to the assistance received by the harmonized Atlantic provinces, expressed in proportion to their populations, to justify its entitlement to adjustment assistance. This wrongly implies that federal programs are structured in such a way.

First of all, let us make one thing clear: the federal government still pays the province of Quebec for the administration of the GST. Quebec has received some $100 million a year since 1992-93.

However, as other speakers mentioned today, the fact remains that the only purpose of adjustment assistance is to compensate for part of the revenue shortfall experienced by some provinces after they agreed to participate in an harmonized sales tax system. Again, its only purpose is to compensate for part of the revenue shortfall, not for the revenue increase.

Federal government programs are designed to meet the specific needs of each province and to take into account their particular situation, but not to distribute benefits equally among provinces on the basis of population.

Thus, the equalization program is aimed at providing the provinces with a lower tax capacity with the resources they need to pay for high quality programs and services for their residents.

With this program, Quebec, which has less than 25% of the population, will receive this year 48% of total equalization payments, or $4 billion in federal transfers, when other provinces like Ontario, British Columbia and Alberta are not even eligible.

Equalization is not the only direct transfer to Quebec. The province also receive its fair share of the CHST, which will reach $6.8 billion this year.

In 1997-98, these two transfers to Quebec, that is to say, the GST and equalization, will amount to $10.4 billion, which is more than for any other province. This amount represents over 27% of Quebec's anticipated revenues and almost $1,400 per person, about 25% more than the national average.

When faced with a particularly acute cigarette smuggling problem, Quebec asked the federal government to reduce its tobacco tax. We agreed. We reduced the tax by $10 a carton, more than in any other province. Indeed, in giving Quebec what it wanted, the federal government lost revenues estimated at $300 million in all of Canada in 1994-95.

Quebec also receive other benefits from the federal government. I would like to enumerate a few. Companies established in Quebec receive about 40% of research and development tax credits. To date, 57% of the funds invested by the Canadian technological partnership program went to Quebec companies.

As for middle and long term financing, the Export Development Corporation spent 47% of its budget in Quebec, more than in any other province. That is strong strategic support for our exporting companies. Thirty-seven percent of the Business Development Bank of Canada investments are concentrated in Quebec. That is a significant contribution to the financing of small and medium size businesses in Quebec.

Under the Canadian infrastructure program, the federal government gave $683 million to Quebec as its 33% share of the cost of rehabilitating local infrastructure.

In closing, to go back to the issue of compensation for the harmonization of the GST, I will repeat that the adjustment assistance offered to the provinces, who needed it in their transition to a more effective sales tax system, was fair and equitable.

Quebec benefits greatly from several federal programs in areas where such assistance is needed. With regard to the adjustment assistance program put in place as part of the harmonized sales tax system, the need obviously does not exist. However, I remain convinced that Quebec's initiative to introduce a value added sales tax similar to the federal tax is legitimate and beneficial to both businesses and taxpayers.

As you can see, the facts in no way indicate that Quebec was treated unfairly. On the contrary. We have convincing proof that federal programs are based on equitable rules. When Quebec's needs and situation warrant federal assistance, such assistance is always provided and often exceeds the share that province should receive in proportion to its population.

SupplyGovernment Orders

4:10 p.m.

Reform

Eric C. Lowther Reform Calgary Centre, AB

Madam Speaker, I would like to address a few comments to the members across the floor, particularly to the last two who spoke from the government side.

I think we have to consider a couple of things with what is being put forward with this motion. We must recognize that in Canada today, through the democratic process, Quebec Canadians have elected the Bloc members who are here in the House. There is something that has caused them to get frustrated to the point where they would choose to elect the Bloc members on this side of the House.

Although I do not agree with the motion that has been put forward by the Bloc, I do recognize some of the frustration that Quebeckers feel with the current government. I was interested in hearing some of the comments that members across the way made earlier in talking about the integrity of the Liberal government.

I am reminded again of the GST promise that we have not had anything delivered on. Taxes have increased. We heard the member misquote our leader. He even said that the figures prove the Liberals' good performance. I refer to a $600 billion debt, to taxes that take us six months to pay, $45 billion in interest payments every year, 29 new spending increases in the throne speech. With all this he says they are lowering the tax burden.

They come in here and with this litany of tax and debts, they hold up the UN's announcement of how we are the favoured nation and the chosen nation.

If we are the best of a bad lot, is that the best we can do? I say that Canada has a great potential to do even more than we have, but we are limited by the government to the point that Canadians in Quebec have become so frustrated that they are electing Bloc members.

I ask the member who spoke previously when will this government realize that Canadians are asking for lower taxes and some integrity in government instead of the misguided increased tax and mismanagement that we continue to see from this government? That is the crux of the question.

If we could have integrity and proper management of the fiscal issues in this country, perhaps we would not be faced with Bloc motions such as the one we are dealing with today.