Debates of Dec. 1st, 1997

Canada Post

[Réjean Lefebvre, Bloc, Champlain, QC]

Mr. Speaker, incidentally, as early as August 6, it was clear that the dice were loaded. Will the government admit that postal workers did not have any hope of a negotiated agreement?

[Lawrence MacAulay, Liberal, Minister of Labour]

Mr. Speaker, I do not think anybody in this House could indicate that I did not support the collective bargaining process. I think I gave them every opportunity to come to a collective agreement. They had all the opportunity.

Now, today, we must move.

Pay Equity

[Bev Desjarlais, NDP, Churchill, MB]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the President of the Treasury Board. For 13 years the government has used stall tactics to deny justice to tens of thousands of its employees seeking pay equity.

We have a former Liberal senator basking in the Mexican sun. Since 1990 he has been paid $500,000 and $80,000 in tax free expenses and only sat in the Senate 12 times.

If this is the government's idea of equal pay for work of equal value, these employees deserve more than they are owed.

Is this the government's idea of pay equity?

[The Speaker]

I am going to allow the question because it was sort of tied in, but the preamble was a bit far-ranging.

[Marcel Massé, Liberal, President of the Treasury Board and Minister responsible for Infrastructure]

Mr. Speaker, I will of course not comment on the question relating to the Senate.

With respect to the question relating to pay equity, I am glad to have the occasion to reaffirm once more that this longstanding dispute with employees is one which we would like to settle through negotiations.

We offered $842 million in April. We have increased that number to $1.3 billion. That is equivalent to between $15,000 and $20,000 per employee.

The government has done the correct thing. It is offering pay equity. Now it is a question of the union being—

[The Speaker]

The hon. member for Churchill.

[Bev Desjarlais, NDP, Churchill, MB]

Mr. Speaker, the government is getting a much deserved reputation for changing the rules and lowering its standards.

Will the President of the Treasury Board settle this dispute fairly, once and for all, or is he going to signal to the public that pay equity is dead?

[Marcel Massé, Liberal, President of the Treasury Board and Minister responsible for Infrastructure]

Mr. Speaker, how much more do they want? We proclaimed pay equity in 1978. We have paid about $1 billion in the last few years to attain it. There is clearly at present equal pay for equal work.

The problem is one of methodology on which clearly the union does not want to negotiate. We are ready to offer a settlement which makes sense, but it takes two to tango.

The Environment

[Jean Charest, Progressive Conservative, Sherbrooke, QC]

Mr. Speaker, today Canadians are finding out that they really do not have a government. They have a process, whether it is the postal strike, whether it is pay equity or whether it is Kyoto.

I would like to ask a question of fact of the process government. It is a straightforward, simple question. Could the Liberal government tell us today which provincial or territorial governments in this country officially support the position which it announced today with respect to Kyoto?

[Christine Stewart, Liberal, Minister of the Environment]

Mr. Speaker, the federal government has spent a lot of time talking with its provincial counterparts, territorial counterparts and with all sectors of Canadian society. They understand that Canada, as a trading nation, must be part of an international consensus and they understand that the government has to have some leeway.

Several provincial representatives and ministers will be officially accompanying our delegation to Kyoto.

[Jean Charest, Progressive Conservative, Sherbrooke, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I am not surprised. The minister said they spent a lot of time. We knew that much. They spent a lot of time.

At this rate, however, I hope for everyone's sake that they will not put the whole delegation on the same plane to Kyoto because at this rate they will probably come off the plane with a different position than the one announced today.

While they are at it, could they explain to Canadians how they expect to implement in Canada any position that is taken in Kyoto without the active engagement and support of provincial or territorial governments?

[Christine Stewart, Liberal, Minister of the Environment]

Mr. Speaker, I understand from my colleague's comments that he supports the federal government in what it is trying to do.

We have made it very clear that implementation will depend on our plans and negotiations with all of our partners in Canada, after Kyoto, when we know exactly what the international legally binding targets are.

We will be there with the provinces, the territories, industry and business.

The Economy

[Monte Solberg, Reform, Medicine Hat, AB]

Mr. Speaker, Canadians from coast to coast are demanding that the government get off its shop-until-you-drop spending fixation in favour of debt reduction.

In fact, the hon. member for Hillsborough found out that 79% of his constituents favour lower debt, lower taxes, and only 21% favour an increase in spending, and that is in hard-pressed Prince Edward Island.

Will the government listen to the hon. member for Hillsborough and all Canadians and start to move forcibly in the direction of reducing debt? That is what Canadians want.

[Jim Peterson, Liberal, Secretary of State (International Financial Institutions)]

Mr. Speaker, we have already paid down $16 billion of debt this year. Our government is going to take a very balanced approach. We will continue to pay down the debt, we will reduce taxes and we will strengthen our social and economic framework.

[Monte Solberg, Reform, Medicine Hat, AB]

That is hardly a balanced approach, Mr. Speaker. They offered 29 new spending initiatives in the throne speech.

As usual Canadian people are a way ahead of the government. They understand how vulnerable we are with this $600 billion debt. They understand that rising interest costs will eat the heart out of social programs and remove our ability to start to reduce taxes.

Will the government make a firm commitment today to devote at least half of all surpluses to debt reduction?

[Jim Peterson, Liberal, Secretary of State (International Financial Institutions)]

Mr. Speaker, as I have said to the hon. member, we are committed to debt reduction. We have already demonstrated our commitment by deeds and actions.

We are committed to making sure we have the strongest social and economic framework for Canadians for the future and to ensure opportunities for all Canadians from coast to coast. We are also committed to reducing taxes which we know in many cases are high.

Kyoto Summit

[Bernard Bigras, Bloc, Rosemont, QC]

Mr. Speaker, after waiting until the last minute, the government is finally informing us of the position it will take at the Kyoto summit. As we know, following the Rio summit, in 1992, only Quebec and British Columbia ratified the agreement.

Now that the Minister of the Environment has finally managed to achieve a consensus on greenhouse gases among cabinet members, what will she do to ensure that the potential Kyoto agreement is accepted and ratified by the provinces?

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Minister of Natural Resources and Minister responsible for the Canadian Wheat Board]

Mr. Speaker, we have indicated to all the provinces, business, industry and environmental organizations, in fact all stakeholders, that they are invited and welcome to participate with us in the development and finalization of the implementation plan.

From day one we have adopted an inclusive, collaborative approach. Most of the stakeholders have responded positively. We expect that by the end of the day we will have all Canadians inside the tent working constructively on solutions.

[Bernard Bigras, Bloc, Rosemont, QC]

Mr. Speaker, will the Minister of the Environment pledge today, in this House, to set up an independent committee to monitor the implementation of the recommendations in the potential Kyoto agreement?

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Minister of Natural Resources and Minister responsible for the Canadian Wheat Board]

Mr. Speaker, there will be a variety of means by which parliament and Canadians generally will be able to monitor progress toward the implementation of any agreement flowing out of Kyoto.

The hon. gentleman has made a suggestion that we should look at. I can also tell him that the Energy Council of Canada, the National Round Table on Environment and the Economy, and a whole variety of other groups and organizations are very anxious to participate in building the solutions and in monitoring the process.

Taxation

[Dick Harris, Reform, Prince George—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Mr. Speaker, the secretary of state talked about the deeds and actions of his government's fiscal policy. Let us look at a couple of them.

There have been 37 tax increases in different areas since 1993, $25 billion in increased taxes since 1993, and now it wants to increase the CPP payroll tax by 73%. Those are the deeds and actions of the Liberal government.

Since the secretary of state astutely put it that he recognized the high taxes in the country, has he been able to demonstrate his perceptiveness to the finance minister?

[Jim Peterson, Liberal, Secretary of State (International Financial Institutions)]

Mr. Speaker, he has done this totally without my assistance. The finance minister has cut EI premiums by an accumulative amount of $7.1 billion since we took office. The finance minister has cut taxes for the families of the working poor, for the disabled, for charities and voluntary organizations, for students and their parents. This is what the finance minister has done.

[Dick Harris, Reform, Prince George—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Mr. Speaker, the fact is that the average Canadian family has had $3,000 less disposable income every year since the Liberal Party took power in 1993. That is how the finance minister has been achieving some of these targets.

If the secretary of state recognizes the incredible burden high taxes are putting on Canadian families and businesses, how will he be able to convince the finance minister to see his point of view?

[Jim Peterson, Liberal, Secretary of State (International Financial Institutions)]

Mr. Speaker, I wish the hon. member would recognize that Canada has the lowest payroll taxes of the G-7.

It would be totally irresponsible for us to announce massive across the board tax decreases when we still have a deficit.

Marine Industry

[Francine Lalonde, Bloc, Mercier, QC]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Industry.

The federal government provides strong support to the aerospace industry and boasts about its success. However, it refuses to do the same for the shipbuilding industry, which develops sophisticated products and employs a highly skilled workforce.

Given the success of the aerospace industry, should the government not provide similar support to shipbuilders in Quebec and Canada?