Debates of Dec. 9th, 1997

Division No. 68

[Greg Thompson, Progressive Conservative, Charlotte, NB]

Mr. Speaker, on November 25 I asked a question of the Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development. That question was in relation to the Indian First Nation in Oromocto.

The issue at hand here is the mismanagement of funds at the Indian nation. As a result of the mismanagement of those funds this Indian nation finds itself $1.3 million in debt. Even after a cash advance of $464,000 it is still going through difficulties. Some of those difficulties have to be addressed immediately. I hope when the parliamentary secretary responds he can tell me that they have been addressed.

Up until now, council members, band staff and others have gone for five weeks and longer without any pay. Employees of the band have been laid off, including the band's police constable. The power bill has not been paid and the health facilities are shut down. Young people are also suffering. For the young people who are attending university, some of their tuition and the moneys they need to continue their education have been cut off because of this mismanagement.

It reaches beyond the band as well. The Oromocto band with the assistance of the departments of Indian affairs and northern development and fisheries have moved into the commercial fishery and we all support that. It is to make the band self-sufficient. Everyone of us supports that.

The difficulty is that neither the department of Indian affairs nor the fisheries department want to take responsibility for moneys that are still owing the private sector in the fishing communities in southern New Brunswick. It has left some of those people in a very difficult position. That $1.3 million the band owes, if you wish, the moneys which they do not have to pay their bills, reaches outside the Indian community as well.

The question that I had for the minister on November 25 was to see if she could expedite a process to relieve this difficulty both on and off the reserve. That is the point I am making here this evening as well. I am hoping that can be resolved. I did mention previously that they did have a cash advance of $464,000 but that still has not paid the bills in the private sector in southern New Brunswick nor all of the bills on the reserve.

I am hoping that a resolution to this can be found somewhere. I think it has to be the tightening of the regulations between departments and the drafting of some of these guidelines when we attempt to move our native people into the traditional fisheries. Bureaucrats at both fisheries and Indian affairs and northern development are making these proposals and drafting this legislation with the appropriate guidelines but apparently those guidelines do not work. They fall short of the line and the reporting procedures do not work.

As a result of this delay we are moving into the Christmas season of all times to see people going without and they are hurting both on and off the reserve. I am hoping that the parliamentary secretary can respond favourably tonight and tell us that yes indeed those guidelines have been tightened and yes indeed this problem has been recognized and will be resolved very shortly.

[Bernard Patry, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development]

Mr. Speaker, on behalf of the Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development I am pleased to respond to the hon. member for Charlotte.

Financial accountability for federal funds is assured through the ongoing monitoring of terms and conditions for funding arrangements and annual audited financial statements.

Officials from the Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development have received the Oromocto First Nation audit for the 1996-97 fiscal year. Band members accepted the audit at a duly convened band meeting on November 24, 1997.

Departmental officials spent the week of November 24, 1997 on the reserve attending meetings dealing with co-management and the band's financial position. Officials worked in an advisory capacity for the First Nation on several issues and met with the band council. These meetings proved to be very productive. The department is currently working with the First Nation to assist in implementing the auditor's recommendations.

While the Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development has been working with the First Nation through a co-manager, the current financial situation at Oromocto indicates a need for outside intervention. The department has contracted the services of a third party to work with the First Nation.

This will ensure there is the required financial control on the reserve and accountability to both the department and the First Nation community members. Further, the third party and a recovery team from DIAND will assist in strengthening the capacity of the Oromocto First Nation so that it will be able to assume control in the long term.

It is also important to keep in mind that First Nations are not federal agencies. While First Nations do receive and administer funds from the department for specific purposes, they may enter into contractual agreements with other parties. These are private transactions and as such, a First Nation is responsible for dealing with issues that arise between it and another party.

Departmental officials continue to work with the Oromocto First Nation to ensure that essential services are being met for eligible community members.

First nations support the need for audited financial information for management and accountability purposes. The department reviews the audits and various reports. The funding agreements make provision for the Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development to take remedial action where a problem exists.

It is important to note that 82% of first nations and first nations organizations are managing below the line above which intervention is required.

[Svend Robinson, NDP, Burnaby—Douglas, BC]

Mr. Speaker, over two months ago I rose in the House to ask a question of the Minister of Fisheries and Oceans concerning the devastating plight of B.C. fishers and coastal communities.

I asked the minister what leadership he was prepared to show to assist fishers who lost their jobs, their livelihoods and in many cases their hope as a result of the impact of the Mifflin plan.

At that time over two months ago the minister said that the member should be patient. The patience of British Columbians has run out. The hopes of British Columbians, particularly in coastal communities and particularly fishers, are fast running out.

Just this week we heard from the daughter of one of those fishers. She is a 13 year old girl named Julie Nygren whose father and mother have been involved in fishing for many years. She says:

It's hard to understand why our government won't stand up to the Americans and tell them it isn't fair to take our salmon.

Referring to the minister she says:

It seems that he isn't doing enough for B.C., or for Canada. He's almost on the American side.

I wonder where the minister is. He is from British Columbia, yet time and time again when it comes to speaking out for British Columbia too often he is attacking British Columbia, attacking the premier of British Columbia, and speaking up for the United States.

The Community Fisheries Development Centre has put a proposal before the government, before the Minister of Human Resources Development and the Minister of Fisheries and Oceans, urging an active labour market transition program to put the people who have lost their jobs as a result of the Mifflin plan back to work. It is not a TAGS program. It is an active labour market program to find training certification programs to get them involved in restoring habitat, for example.

Recently the federal auditor general pointed out that the federal fisheries department had been very lax in standing up for fisheries habitat. Instead of finger pointing I urge the government to come up with a program that gets the scientists to work together collaboratively, federally and provincially, to restore habitat and put people back to work.

I also appeal to the federal Liberal government, in addition to supporting the $375 million transition program, to take a strong and constructive stand on the ongoing concern around the salmon treaty. I appeal to the government to join the British Columbia lawsuit. B.C. fisheries minister Corky Evans has appealed to the federal government to stand up, get involved and speak out on behalf of the people of British Columbia.

I note that the Government of Canada joined a lawsuit earlier on behalf of United States tribes. I wonder why it is that it is not prepared to do the same thing with respect to the people of British Columbia.

Finally, I appeal to the Government of Canada to speak out against the proposed seizure of fish boats by the Alaskans and to recognize that it would be a very destructive step at this very sensitive time when the eminent persons, Mr. Ruckelshaus and Mr. Strangway, are attempting to arrive at a solution.

The stakeholder process has failed. What we need is political leadership at the highest possible level: the prime minister's office, the minister's office and the office of the president of the United States. We need strong transition programs but we also need a government that is prepared to stand up to ensure that the principles of the salmon treaty, particularly the equity principle, is respected and that B.C. coastal communities and fishers are able to live with dignity.

[Bob Nault, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of Human Resources Development]

Mr. Speaker, let me first explain that the B.C. community development program the member mentions does not refer to a Human Resources Development Canada program.

The Community Fisheries Development Centre is a non-profit organization which aims to improve existing skills in fishing communities and support the development of new skills so that people displaced from fishing can find new or supplementary work.

The CFDC has delivered many of the government's programs and services to the fishing industry and industry workers in British Columbia. Local human resources development officials work closely with the CFDC on the design and implementation of both employment assistance and a job creation project. HRDC will continue to use the services of the centre as the need arises.

From the beginning, the role of Human Resources Development Canada has been to assist west coast fisheries workers adjust to the structural changes to their industry and the poor fishing seasons of the past two years. HRDC has used a strategic approach to address the challenges of the industry. Together with local community and industry partners in the fishing sector, the government has ensured that services offered met the individual needs of affected workers.

Over the past two years the government has committed over $22 million, funding 129 projects to assist over 3,600 people. While some of the reasons employment assistance is needed have changed from the previous two years, the government will continue to work closely with industry associations to develop and deliver both short term and long term interventions to help individual fishers and coastal communities.

Human Resources Development Canada will build on the work of the past two years to ensure that helping fishing industry workers remains a priority.

Let me assure the House that all projects have helped improve the employability of individual workers. Local officials have received very positive feedback from workers, unions and local communities about the value of the assistance offered by the Government of Canada. This was reflected in the recent report of the Community Fisheries Development Centre summarizing its work with Human Resources Development Canada.

[Jean-Guy Chrétien, Bloc, Frontenac—Mégantic, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I would like to refer here to a question that I asked the Minister of Human Resources Development on November 27 last.

To ensure that everyone understands the background, I will remind the House what that question was:

The minister recently said that BC mine workers were not interested in a POWA. Yet, these workers are currently protesting in front of the minister's Montreal office. They are asking for a modified POWA.

That is the term I used, “a modified POWA”.

Given the repeated requests made by the former BC mine workers, will the minister finally see the light and take the necessary steps to ensure their financial security?

That was my question. Here is what the Minister of Human Resources Development answered:

I draw the hon. member's attention—

<—and he was showing a document—

—to a letter, dated the 27 and signed by the union president, which I am prepared to table in the House. It says clearly that the workers want an improved POWA, that they are not interested in a traditional POWA, only in an improved one. Therefore this has nothing to do with what the hon. member is asking for.

Will the minister finally show a bit of compassion and stop playing with words? I am asking for a modified POWA, and he is saying that what the workers want is an improved POWA. It is the same thing.

Whether we call it an improved POWA, a modified POWA, I could not care less, but was is important is that he wake up and that he give to the BC mine workers what they are entitled to.

I call it a modified POWA for the simple reason that Jean Dupéré, the president of Lab Chrysotile, is willing to contribute a considerable amount to the program that existed before, the POWA. Furthermore, Louise Harel wrote to the Minister of Human Resources Development to tell him that she was to ready to match any contribution that the minister might make.

The minister is an intelligent man. He has already proven that in the past. Why is he playing with the intelligence of BC mine workers by speaking of improved instead of modified?

If I had used the term “improved POWA”, he would have said “They do not want an improved POWA, they want a modified POWA”. The minister is not lying, of course I am not allowed to say this here, but he is playing with words, to a certain extent.

The Minister of Human Resources Development, by showing a letter from Mr. Laliberté, the president of the workers who were paid by the hour, tried to undermine his credibility, and I found this extremely regrettable. What the workers of the former BC mine want is an improved POWA. If he does not like the word “improved”, he can use a similar word, I repeat that I really do not care. The fact is that Jean Dupéré is ready to contribute a substantial amount of money.

As for myself, right now, I want to tell all the BC mine workers that I will never let them down in their attempt to get an improved or a modified POWA.

I hope that the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Human Resources Development, who will be answering later, will show a bit more compassion than—

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland)]

The Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Human Resources Development has the floor.

[Bob Nault, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of Human Resources Development]

Mr. Speaker, the hon. member has asked this question on a number of occasions. He knows very well that the government is concerned about the situation of Black Lake miners and that it was among the first to come to their aid.

The Minister of Human Resources Development indicated in the House on several occasions that he has set aside nearly $3 million to help the miners remain active members of the labour force. The member across the way has repeatedly asked the government to help the miners through the program for older workers adjustment. The fact is, and the hon. member knows this, POWA no longer exists. POWA ended last March because it was not fair or equitable to all the workers in Quebec or elsewhere.

This cost shared program was only offered in some provinces and contained so many restrictions that many older workers simply could not qualify. Furthermore, POWA offered only passive income support and did nothing to help workers adapt to a changing labour force.

Instead of continuing to offer such ineffective support, forward looking governments like ours are focusing their efforts to offer Canadians active measures which will help workers improve their skills so they remain in the labour force and can adapt to a changing work place and a changing economy.

The Minister of Human Resources Development is very sensitive to the needs of these individuals, so much so that he met with their representatives on October 29, 1997. The workers informed the minister that POWA did not meet their expectations and asked that special measures be taken along the lines of those adopted by the Government of Quebec in similar situations.

Our government is ready to work with the province and the employer to help these workers, but it cannot help them through a program which no longer exists. The government is offering the workers $3 million worth of active measures including target late subsidies, self-employment assistance and skills development.

These are the kinds of improvements and the kinds of issues that we would like to bring forward. We ask the member to bring that back to the people in his riding.

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland)]

Hon. members, before we go to the next member, in a previous dissertation an hon. member came perilously close to what I would consider to be unparliamentary language.

I did not intervene at the time, but I want it very clearly put on the record that even in a back-handed manner we do not refer to other hon. members as liars under any circumstance.

[Lynn Myers, Liberal, Waterloo—Wellington, ON]

Mr. Speaker, there is a growing gap between the health of the economy and the well-being of Canadians according to a recent report on an experimental index of social health developed by Human Resources Development Canada.

This index suggests that since the late 1970s improvements in the economy have not been matched by increases in the social well-being of Canadians. On the contrary, it shows that as the economy has grown Canadian social health has in fact declined.

The index is composed of 15 indicators, some of which apply to all age groups. Others such as infant mortality, teen suicide, weekly earnings of adults and poverty among the elderly apply to specific age groups.

I think this suggests that it is not enough to take care of the economy and then just assume that the economy will take care of the welfare and well-being of individuals. The government needs to be and must be more proactive to ensure the well-being of all Canadians.

What exactly does the parliamentary secretary of human resources development suggest be done by the federal government to narrow this gap and to ensure that, as the economy moves up, so too does the well-being of all Canadians?

[Bob Nault, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of Human Resources Development]

Mr. Speaker, the government is quite concerned with the social well-being of Canadians and believes in stimulating public discussion on this very important issue.

Indeed this was the very purpose of the study mentioned by the hon. member. The member should note, however, that there was no consensus on how to best measure social well-being. In fact, the study itself explicitly rejects the idea that the index on social health is the only or even the best way to measure social well-being.

Nonetheless, as the hon. member suggests in his question, the Government of Canada has a key role to play in social areas and in levelling the playing field for all Canadians. Canadians demand that we live up to this responsibility and it is a challenge we will gladly meet.

This is why, in the Speech from the Throne, it was clearly stated that budgetary surpluses would be split on a 50:50 basis over the course of the second mandate, with half going to investments in social and economic priorities and half going to a combination of tax reductions and debt repayment.

The fact is this government has brought order to the nation's finances. We have put our fiscal house in order and in this way we have regained the ability to address the priorities of Canadians, that is, our children and youth, our health care and education, our communities and our knowledge and creativity.

We will continue to make social investments responsibly and with vigilance in strengthening the economy and working with our partners to solve the problem of unemployment, particularly youth unemployment, building a better future for our children by working with the provinces on a new national child benefit and a national children's agenda, ensuring Canadians get the education and skills they need to find jobs and work in new industries and ensuring that persons with disabilities have the tools they need to fully participate in society.

This government is committed to working effectively and efficiently with all its partners to modernize social programs for the 21st century.

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland)]

A motion to adjourn the House is now deemed to have been adopted. Accordingly, this House stands adjourned until tomorrow at 2 p.m., pursuant to Standing Order 24(1).

(The House adjourned at 7.17 p.m.)