House of Commons Hansard #166 of the 36th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was pops.

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National Defence ActGovernment Orders

10:05 a.m.

York Centre Ontario

Liberal

Art Eggleton LiberalMinister of National Defence

moved the second reading of, and concurrence in, amendments made by the Senate to Bill C-25, an act to amend the National Defence Act and to make consequential amendments to other acts.

Mr. Speaker, I am going to keep this very brief. Bill C-25, an act to amend the National Defence Act and to make consequential amendments to other acts, has returned to the House with an amendment from the other place.

Bill C-25 was first introduced in the House a year ago today. On behalf of the government and the men and women of the Department of National Defence and the Canadian forces, I would like to commend the Senators for their thorough review of the issues in Bill C-25.

The bill is a key element in the program of comprehensive change for both the department and the forces and is much anticipated by the men and women in those organizations.

The Senate has proposed one change to clause 96 of Bill C-25. Clause 96 provides for a review of the provisions and operation of the bill within five years, and the tabling of a report of the review before each House of Parliament.

The amendment made by the Senate changes the requirement for a report of the review of the bill to be made within five years to a requirement for an independent review and report to be tabled before both Houses every five years.

The government is prepared to support the amendment.

National Defence ActGovernment Orders

10:05 a.m.

Reform

Art Hanger Reform Calgary Northeast, AB

Mr. Speaker, I find it an opportune time to rise to address Bill C-25 and the amendment proposed by the Senate.

As hon. members know, this is the first time the National Defence Act has been amended since 1950.

It is an opportunity for the government to put forward important changes which would allow the Department of National Defence to shore up its solid foundation as one of Canada's most important institutions. The Canadian forces, after all, when all is said and done, are charged with protecting Canada's sovereignty and, by extension, Canadians' freedom. Unfortunately, the government is about to squander yet another opportunity to do good by the Department of National Defence.

Bill C-25 is largely a housekeeping bill. It does nothing to address the systemic problems in the military justice system. It does nothing to address the larger concerns of the Somalia inquiry. There will be no inspector general. There will be little independent oversight of the operations of the Canadian forces.

The Canadian forces have been subjected to decades of neglect at the hands of this Liberal government and former Liberal governments. Chronic underfunding, equipment shortages, excessive bureaucratization, political correctness and a decaying military justice system have all played a role in undermining this proud institution.

I will not go into detail on these matters today, but I would like to urge the members of the House or anyone listening to this debate to read the official opposition's minority report in response to the SCONDVA report on the quality of life in the military. Our position on these matters is outlined there.

The official opposition is opposed to Bill C-25 because it does not deal with any substantive problems that the Canadian forces face.

Bill C-25 is an unfortunate waste of opportunity to set an agenda for renewal for the Canadian forces. The amendment sent from the other place is fine. The trouble is that the bill as a whole is flawed.

National Defence ActGovernment Orders

10:10 a.m.

Bloc

René Laurin Bloc Joliette, QC

Mr. Speaker, when the bill was introduced, the Bloc Quebecois opposed it for a number of reasons.

The main reason was that the bill did not seem to improve the situation sufficiently to ensure the rights of the military would be protected before the courts, especially as regards summary proceedings before military tribunals and court martials. For example, a member of the armed forces had only 24 hours to decide between a summary proceeding or a court martial. He could only consult a lawyer. He could not have one present at his trial.

These things remain in the bill and are unchanged by the amendment. Human rights in the military are, in our opinion, largely ignored.

There was another example this week. I read in the paper that a serviceman was taken to military court for refusing an anthrax vaccination. It that is what it means to respect human rights, we do not agree.

We can understand that more expeditious summary proceedings would be more commonly used in wartime. We are not in wartime, however, and the military deserves better treatment when their rights are at issue. This is particularly true in summary proceedings, when a serviceman is judged by a commanding officer, who is necessarily in a conflict of interest situation, because he has to judge one of his subordinates. He must discipline him, he must often pass judgment on his own decision concerning a soldier. The situation may be one in which he himself was involved.

The amendment does not resolve these situations. All that today's amendment, which the government is prepared to pass, accomplishes is to increase the number of reports tabled in the House. There will be more reports, which is admittedly already an improvement.

There is talk of an independent report, but what that means is not defined. Who will produce this independent report? By whom would the authors be appointed? By the department or by the government? Here again, it might be produced by the government and not really be independent. Will there be any soldiers on the committee responsible for producing the report?

We have no guarantee that the term independent will mean that there will be greater respect for the rights of the military when there occurs a contentious situation.

Unfortunately, therefore, we are unable to support the amendment. It does not correct the flaws we pointed out when the bill was introduced. The Bloc Quebecois will therefore be voting against this amendment.

National Defence ActGovernment Orders

10:10 a.m.

NDP

Lorne Nystrom NDP Qu'Appelle, SK

Mr. Speaker, I want to say a few words about the Senate amendment to Bill C-25. Our party supports the amendment, which is a very minor amendment to the bill. However, even though we support the amendment, I want to say a few words about the Senate itself.

In principle I object to a bill originating in the Senate or to the Senate amending a bill because people in the other place are not elected. The time has come for parliamentary reform in terms of doing something about the Senate. The Minister of National Defence is nodding his head and I agree with him.

National Defence ActGovernment Orders

10:10 a.m.

An hon. member

No, he is smiling.

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10:10 a.m.

NDP

Lorne Nystrom NDP Qu'Appelle, SK

I heard him nodding his head from this distance. I heard the rattle.

As we are about to enter a new millennium we should have a more mature parliamentary system. The Senate has been with us for a long time. It was created many years ago as a very elitist institution to keep an eye on the commoners, the people in the House of Commons. It comes from the House of Lords in the British parliamentary system.

The latest Angus Reid poll shows that 11% of Canadians support the existing Senate. That is a very small number. One reason people are cynical about the political process is because of the parliamentarians in this House. As well, there are not many people who support the Liberals in the west. I know that the government House leader is a big fan of the Senate. He wants to be appointed to the Senate someday, the happy hunting ground for retiring politicians. This House has to take some leadership along with provincial legislatures and do something about getting rid of the other place. Of course there is a debate in the country as to whether it should be abolished altogether or whether it should be reformed, elected or whatever.

Over the last decade I have been involved in this issue for some time in terms of constitutional change. We have seen a growing movement in the country of the number of people who actually want to abolish the Senate. About 10 years ago it about 20% to 21%. In the last polls I have seen it is about 41%, and about 43% want to reform the Senate, elect it or change it in some way. There is no consensus in how it should be changed.

The Liberal member from Sarnia and I have started a national petition working together in a non-partisan way to try to mobilize the idea of straight abolition of the other place. I think the time has come for that. It is undemocratic, it is unelected, it is unaccountable, it costs almost $50 million a year and yet we sit here and tolerate the other place as an institution.

A lot of ministers, and I do not want to quote names, said publicly in the past or privately that the Senate has to go. The time has come to show some leadership as we enter the last year of this century in terms of a motion on that. I wanted to make that point. Often over the years when we debated a bill that originated in the Senate or was amended by the Senate had comments about the Senate itself, going back to the days of Stanley Knowles and even before that. These comments are very relevant today. The government leader nods and I hope we will have some leadership in terms of democracy for the new millennium across the way, a millennium project for democracy and get rid of the Senate. If the government House leader wants to put the motion right now I will certainly second it.

National Defence ActGovernment Orders

10:15 a.m.

Progressive Conservative

Mark Muise Progressive Conservative West Nova, NS

Mr. Speaker, I am happy to speak to this amendment.

My party is in favour of the amendment. However, my party remains opposed to the bill. The bill addresses military justice and my party agrees with re-examining the issue that is long overdue. Like everything this government does, no matter how noble it appears to be, all we have to do is scratch the surface and we will find there are always ulterior motives. Those motives are generally to look good rather than to be good. Again today is one of those days.

Addressing the issue of justice in the military is both important and urgent. My party understands that if we are to do something at all it is worth doing right. Unfortunately while there are some interesting points in the bill it leaves far too much out and it does not address the real problems Canadian forces face today.

What events brought us to this point? I think all members are aware of the events that transpired as a result of other events in Somalia. However, they are worth repeating. The Somalia inquiry was shut down for political and personal reasons early last year. That is what brings us here today.

Inquiry commissions are created because there is a public concern that needs to be addressed. As elected officials to the House it is incumbent on all of us to take such matters very seriously. It seems to me that if there a good enough reason to begin an inquiry commission then there is probably a good reason to complete an inquiry commission.

Canada's fine military is dragged through the mud and still there is no resolution. The government did not learn from these actions. Last week the public complaints commission looking into RCMP behaviour at APEC was shut down because there is a question of whether it was biased. The government should appoint an independent judicial inquiry that will get to the truth on that matter.

The government does not want the truth. It is not interested in the truth. Why? Because the truth hurts. We are not here because the government all of a sudden cares about justice in the military but because the government knows it made a mistake and now it wants to hide that mistake as well as possible. It is not because the government all of a sudden cares about military justice. The government shut down the Somalia public inquiry and the armed forces were left with no resolution. The government not only hurt the people involved directly in the Somalia case when it shut down the inquiry, it hurt the entire Canadian forces.

There is much in the bill that my party agrees with. The problem, however, is that when one tries to cover something up rather than address the real issue, as this government so often does, the result is often very inadequate.

Similarly, because the government introduced the bill for the wrong reasons, it does not go far enough in addressing the real problems.

The government missed an excellent opportunity to instil new confidence in the military. The government could have taken measures that would truly make a difference, measures that the Canadian public could point to and say the government listened, and they now have faith in the way the military operates, but the government did not listen. Instead it shut down an inquiry and stifled debate.

Now the Canadian public feels cheated, and justly so. The government feels proud when it says it is fulfilling 80% of the recommendations of the Somalia inquiry. I want to make two points on this not so great accomplishment.

First, the Somalia commission was cut short and so we do not know what the full recommendations would have been. Second, while the government thinks 80% is something to brag about, my party's answer is that quality is much more important than quantity.

The Somalia inquiry commissioner recommended that the judge advocate general be a civilian. The government ignored that recommendation. The Somalia inquiry commissioner recommended that an office of the inspector general be created. The government ignored that recommendation.

My party proposed in our election platform last year and we maintain today that creating the office of the inspector general would be the best way to make the military accountable and increase transparency to give the public more confidence in its armed forces.

We proposed in our platform establishing an inspector general for the armed forces to act as an ombudsman to address concerns that cannot be dealt with in the routine chain of command.

In the government's response to the Somalia inquiry, a document that for one reason or another which my party has not yet figured out is called “A commitment to Change”, the government turns down the proposed inspector general.

Why is this minister convinced that the Department of National Defence does not need an independent inspector general when experts who have studied for months and made recommendations to this department tell him he does need an inspector general?

The Minister of National Defence said the Canadian forces do not need someone looking over their shoulder. He went on to say that the role of the inspector general is being fulfilled in other ways. He mentions the grievance board made up of eminent Canadians. He mentions the new ombudsman.

If the minister really thinks the role of the inspector general is being fulfilled in other ways, why does he react so violently when my party recommends such an office?

It seems to me that if this grievance board and the ombudsman truly did the same thing as the inspector general, the minister would not be so quick to shut down the idea of inspector general by saying such a thing as the military does need someone looking over its shoulder.

Could it be that the grievance board and the ombudsman do not do what an inspector general could do? The way the bill would have it, these bodies have absolutely no teeth. They can make recommendations and the CDS can ignore them.

The Canadian public has little reason not to believe the recommendations will be ignored. The Canadian public is looking for a Canadian forces justice system that is fair and transparent. The Canadian public needs such a thing if it is to continue supporting the Canadian forces.

Unfortunately the government squandered the opportunity when it refused to listen to the advice of its own commissioners and ignored their recommendation for an inspector general.

The government does not listen. It does not hear. It does not want an office with teeth, with real authority. The government ignored the Somalia commissioner's recommendation and what my party cannot accept is the way the government picks and chooses what recommendations to follow.

My party wholeheartedly agrees with the need to change the military justice system. The bill needs to go further to create real change. We want people to know their military serves them and not itself. The bill fails to do that and the government has failed to do its job.

National Defence ActGovernment Orders

10:25 a.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland)

Is the House ready for the question?

National Defence ActGovernment Orders

10:25 a.m.

Some hon. members

Question.

National Defence ActGovernment Orders

10:25 a.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland)

Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion?

National Defence ActGovernment Orders

10:25 a.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

National Defence ActGovernment Orders

10:25 a.m.

Some hon. members

No.

National Defence ActGovernment Orders

10:25 a.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland)

All those in favour of the motion will please say yea.

National Defence ActGovernment Orders

10:25 a.m.

Some hon. members

Yea.

National Defence ActGovernment Orders

10:25 a.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland)

All those opposed will please say nay.

National Defence ActGovernment Orders

10:25 a.m.

Some hon. members

Nay.

National Defence ActGovernment Orders

10:25 a.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland)

In my opinion the yeas have it.

And more than five members having risen:

National Defence ActGovernment Orders

10:25 a.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland)

Pursuant to Standing Order 45, the recorded division stands deferred until Monday, December 7 at the ordinary hour of daily adjournment.

National Defence ActGovernment Orders

10:25 a.m.

Liberal

Marlene Catterall Liberal Ottawa West—Nepean, ON

Mr. Speaker, given that votes are already scheduled for 5 o'clock on Monday, I think you might find consent to have this vote deferred to the same time on Monday.

National Defence ActGovernment Orders

10:25 a.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland)

Is that agreed?

National Defence ActGovernment Orders

10:25 a.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

Message From The SenateGovernment Orders

10:25 a.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland)

Order, please. I have the honour to inform the House that a message has been received from the Senate informing this House that the Senate has passed a bill, to which the concurrence of this House is desired.

The House proceeded to the consideration of Bill C-57, an act to amend the Nunavut Act with respect to the Nunavut Court of Justice and to amend other acts in consequence, as reported (without amendment) from the committee.

Nunavut ActGovernment Orders

10:25 a.m.

Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel Québec

Liberal

Alfonso Gagliano Liberalfor the Minister of Justice

moved that the bill be concurred in.

Nunavut ActGovernment Orders

10:25 a.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland)

Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion?