Debates of March 16th, 1998

Canada Pension Plan

[Diane Ablonczy, Reform, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

Mr. Speaker, nearly three years ago the HRD department discovered that 90,000 Canadians were shortchanged on their CPP benefits. One poor guy was owed a hundred grand. Today we have access to information documents showing that 40,000 of these pensioners still have not been paid. Why not? When will the minister send these people their cheques?

[Pierre Pettigrew, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development]

Mr. Speaker, I will look into the matter when I return to the office this afternoon. If some of the cheques have not reached our clients, this is something we will correct immediately.

Young Offenders Act

[Michel Bellehumeur, Bloc, Berthier—Montcalm, QC]

Mr. Speaker, the federal Young Offenders Act costs Quebec over $80 million yearly.

Despite the original 50-50 cost-splitting rule, and despite the fact that one quarter of the young people are within Quebec, Ottawa pays Quebec only 18.3% of the budget allocated to this program.

The Minister of Justice is talking about amending the Young Offenders Act in order to satisfy the Reform Party, but who will end up inevitably paying the increased costs of applying this legislation? Will the minister not admit that it is time Quebec was paid its fair share in this area?

[Anne McLellan, Liberal, Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada]

Mr. Speaker, I want to reassure all hon. members that our renewal of the youth justice system is done on behalf of Canadians and at the request of Canadians.

The other thing I want to reassure the hon. member in relation to is that we will continue our negotiations with the provinces. The administration of youth justice in this country is cost shared between the federal and provincial governments. Yes I would concede there have been some reductions in our funding to the administration of youth justice but we continue to work with the provinces in a co-operative way to deliver—

[The Speaker]

The hon. member for Bras d'Or.

Devco

[Michelle Dockrill, NDP, Bras D'Or, NS]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Deputy Prime Minister.

When asked to confirm the existence of a plan to shut down Devco, this government claimed to know nothing about it. Today I ask the government to confirm the existence of a new 15 month shutdown plan for Devco.

Is it just a coincidence that this 15 month plan dovetails perfectly with that secret cabinet memo on Devco? Will the government release this plan to the House so that Cape Bretoners can know what this government plans for them today and not after the polls close in Nova Scotia next week?

[Don Boudria, Liberal, Leader of the Government in the House of Commons]

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to have the opportunity to respond to the hon. member. She has asked that question on the floor of the House on numerous occasions.

The subject has been raised here. I want her to know that her questions will be duly noted. The Minister of Natural Resources will endeavour to respond to her at the earliest opportunity with further details.

Year 2000

[Jim Jones, Progressive Conservative, Markham, ON]

Mr. Speaker, Ray Thornton, Royal Bank vice-president for risk management, says he cannot imagine any corporation surviving if it is not year 2000 ready. Executive members of Canada's other leading banks agree that if companies do not get with the program before it is too late, they do not have a chance of surviving. It is a fact that companies that are not year 2000 compliant may not be here in the year 2000.

My question is for the Minister of Industry. Is there one person in this government who will be accountable and responsible to make sure that our country will be ready for the 21st century?

[John Manley, Liberal, Minister of Industry]

Mr. Speaker, the hon. member asks a very important question. In fact, we did take action to establish the year 2000 task force to provide a central point of information and motivation for the private sector.

Jean Monty, the chairman of Task Force 2000, together with his group have taken the initiative with the government to support us in our efforts to call attention from coast to coast to the very serious problem that Canadian businesses face. Action was taken as well by the Minister of Finance in the recent budget to ensure that the tax treatment is clear for action that is taken by companies which need to comply with year 2000. Our hope is that efforts such as those the member has cited will—

[The Speaker]

The hon. member Parkdale—High Park.

Foreign Affairs

[Sarmite Bulte, Liberal, Parkdale—High Park, ON]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Foreign Affairs.

In light of recent newspaper coverage and an incident concerning a constituent of mine, can the minister tell this House what discussions he or his officials have had with the United States administration regarding the apparent heavy-handed treatment of Canadians at the Canada-U.S. border?

[Lloyd Axworthy, Liberal, Minister of Foreign Affairs]

Mr. Speaker, I would like to report to the hon. member that during the visit of Secretary of State Albright we had very extensive discussions on the whole matter of border issues and how we could work together and co-operate to facilitate movement without any undue interference.

On the specific case as referred to, we have also raised this matter directly with U.S. authorities.

I can state very clearly to the House that no U.S. official in any preclearance situation has the right to search and seizure of a Canadian citizen. We maintain that. We are asking for an investigation into the facts of this particular case.

[Bob Mills, Reform, Red Deer, AB]

Mr. Speaker, the slaughter continues in Kosovo. On Friday our defence minister suggested that we may have to send troops to that area.

It is critical that we be part of the contact group if we are going to send soldiers to that area. Can the Minister of Foreign Affairs tell us whether or not we are on that group? Yes or no?

[Lloyd Axworthy, Liberal, Minister of Foreign Affairs]

Mr. Speaker, first let me indicate that we take with great concern the developments in Kosovo. We are in constant discussion with a variety of allies, at the NATO meeting and at the steering board meeting. We had a very extensive meeting with Secretary of State Albright.

I raised the issue of membership in the contact group. We have not received satisfaction on that matter yet. We are using the NATO and steering board meetings as well as our bilateral meetings. I can indicate as well that we will be reviewing very quickly the ongoing situation. As the minister of defence said, if other contingencies are required we are certainly prepared to consider them.

Air Transportation

[Michel Guimond, Bloc, Beauport—Montmorency—Orléans, QC]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Transport.

Subsequent to the Aéroports de Montréal decision to change the use of Dorval and Mirabel airports, the Government of Quebec struck the Commission sur le développement de la région de Mirabel. Chaired by Guy Tardif, the commission is in operation at the present time.

Why does the Canadian government, which is still obligated to keep Dorval and Mirabel airports operational, safe and in compliance with the standards for major international airports, still refuse to appoint a representative to the Tardif commission?

[Martin Cauchon, Liberal, Secretary of State (Federal Office of Regional Development—Quebec)]

Mr. Speaker, concerning Mirabel Airport, a commission has indeed been set up.

What we have said in this connection is that the Government of Canada would participate when information or documents were requested. Although the Government of Canada is not a presence as far as a seat on the commission is concerned, it will participate when information is requested.

That said, it must also be understood that Aéroports de Montréal has worked toward the creation of a development plan for the Montreal airports, Mirabel in particular. The plan in question addressed freight, vacation charters and also focusses on—

[The Speaker]

The hon. member for Saskatoon—Rosetown—Biggar.

Insurance Industry

[Chris Axworthy, NDP, Saskatoon—Rosetown—Biggar, SK]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Industry. It arises from the proposed merger of two of Canada's largest insurance companies.

Bearing in mind that these mergers always end up with Canadians losing their jobs, they end up in reduced competition and we do not get better services and better prices as a result, would the minister not consider the advice his government gives to youngsters? We tell them to say no to drugs because they are bad for them. Will the minister say no to these big mergers because they are bad for Canadians too?

[Jim Peterson, Liberal, Secretary of State (International Financial Institutions)]

Mr. Speaker, in our review of this proposed merger we will be looking at the competitive aspects. Those are very important. We will be looking at the impact on consumers. We are very concerned about the impact on jobs.

All of these things will be taken into consideration. I can assure members that we will be working with caucus members as well as the affected parties.

Points Of Order

[The Speaker]

I wish to address the incident that occurred before the House adjourned Thursday, February 26, 1998.

I also wish to speak of the subsequent related events, which appear to have overtaken this House.

As the House knows, when asked to rule, Speakers usually restrict their comments to the four corners of the specific incident before them. However, in this case, the original incident has been so distorted that it has virtually been lost sight of while controversy rages around matters which were not originally at issue. Under the circumstances, then, I ask that you bear with me while I address the salient points that have arisen in and around this case.

First, let us recall the original incident. During oral question period on February 26, the hon. member for Rimouski—Mitis was recognized. Before she even had the opportunity to begin her question, a disturbance among some members prevented her from proceeding any further. Once some measure of calm had been restored, the hon. member went on to ask her question.

After oral question period, the House leader of the Bloc Quebecois raised a point of order about this disturbance and several other members also intervened to give their views on the matter.

The recess and the ongoing deliberations of the House leaders allowed me to reflect carefully on the disorder that day and on the issues that were raised as a result. Although I have been ready to rule since the return of the House, I wanted to give the House leaders ample time to resolve this situation.

It seems to me that there is a simple, fundamental principle at stake here: the duty of the Speaker to maintain order and decorum in the House.

Simply described, our Parliament works this way. First, members have a right to speak. Second, the rules and practices of the House determine how that right is applied so that all members are treated fairly. Third, the Speaker is charged with maintaining order in the Chamber by ensuring that the House's rules and practices are respected.

As cited on pages 50 and 54 of Beauchesne's sixth edition:

—the Speaker has the duty to maintain an orderly conduct of debate by repressing disorder when it arises—Those who preside must be mindful of the rights of Members to speak freely, and the equally important right of the House to be free from obstruction and grave disorder.

In other words, the Speaker must balance the competing claims of different members.

Regardless of how dramatically our opinions may diverge or how passionately we hold to convictions that our political opponents do not share, civility must be respected in the House of Commons. This means that each member is entitled to speak and each member can expect a fair hearing, whether or not we agree with what they say or what they stand for.

The issues that face the nation and that are debated in this House are formidable. During debate, emotions can run high and, in the heat of the moment, behaviour can sometimes stray beyond the bounds of what is acceptable. When that happens, the Chair must be vigilant in bringing the House back to order and insisting that our practices be respected.

I have looked carefully at practice here in the House of Commons and in other Canadian legislatures: in the House of Commons of the United Kingdom and in other Westminster-style Parliaments. Everywhere we have looked, we have found that the orderly conduct of business is fundamental to parliamentary practice.

Here, in their own vigilant defence of orderly proceedings, my predecessors have consistently ruled out of order displays or demonstrations of any kind used by members to illustrate their remarks or emphasize their positions. Similarly, props of any kind, used as a way of making a silent comment on issues, have always been found unacceptable in the Chamber.

Regrettably some of the media coverage of this incident and subsequent events seem to have missed the point. Pundits are indignant, claiming that the issue is whether the Canadian flag has a place in this Chamber. One newspaper went so far as to state in a lead editorial “decorum be damned”. I think this is a foolhardy comment that betrays a sad misconception of the nature of parliaments and the way they work. If it is to function effectively and constructively, this House, like any other deliberative assembly, must rely on the respect of civility.

In a ruling given on March 24, 1993, Speaker Fraser eloquently captured what order and decorum means in an assembly like ours when he stated:

—the institution and our country has to take precedence over our own convictions when it comes to remarks in this place—there has to be reasonable order. When I say reasonable order, I say that because without it, there is no free speech and that is (fundamentally what) this place is all about: the right to speak.

Standing here today before the House, with a flag of Canada on either side of the Speaker's chair, I can agree without reservation that there is no better place than the House of Commons for our flag, the symbol of our nation. Similarly we can take pride in the relatively new practice of the singing of the national anthem before we begin proceedings on Wednesdays.

But this ruling is not about the flag. It is not about the national anthem. It is not about patriotism. It is not about the rights of one political faction over another. As I said earlier—and it bear repeating—the basic principles at issue here are order and decorum and the duty of the Speaker to apply the rules and practices of the House.

Our law guarantees the right of all duly elected members to speak; our practice guarantees their right to be heard. It is the duty of the Speaker to guarantee that those rights are respected by guaranteeing that the House's rules and practices are respected.

Today, my duty for which I have taken an oath as Speaker requires me to uphold the rules, precedents and traditions of this House that have served us so well during the last 130 years of parliamentary democracy in Canada. The events during question period on February 26 were clearly out of order, according to our parliamentary rules and practices. I therefore rule that such an incident must not be repeated.

However, I have been challenged to show my colours as a patriotic Canadian by allowing the unfettered display of flags in the Chamber. This would constitute an unprecedented unilateral change to the practice of the House of Commons, a change, my colleagues, that no Speaker has the authority to make. So, whatever pressure that I have to do so, I cannot and I will not arrogate such authority to myself. Unless and until the House decides otherwise, no displays will be allowed and current practice will be upheld.

I trust, indeed I expect, as all hon. members have the right to expect, that when the Chair recognizes a member to speak, the House will extend to that member the courtesy of a respectful hearing of all Canadian members of Parliament. I ask all hon. members to govern themselves according to the House's existing rules and practices which the Speaker is bound to uphold.

We owe it to the constituents who have elected us to make every honest effort to maintain what has been—for the most part—civil and courteous debate.

The Late Mr. Alfred Hales

[Jean Dubé, Progressive Conservative, Madawaska—Restigouche, NB]

Mr. Speaker, Alfred Hales retired from the House of Commons in 1974 after a full parliamentary career which was similar to those of many who served in the House.

He worked hard to protect the interests of his constituents and his community. He was chairman of the public accounts committee where he worked to promote economy in public expenditures. He lived up to his belief that community service is the rent we pay for space on earth. Had that been the sum total of Alfred Hales' parliamentary career, we would be justified in saying well done.

However, Alfred Hales has left a legacy to the House of Commons and to Canada which for over 25 years has returned great dividends to parliament, to Canada and to hundreds of people who have gained a unique insight into parliamentary life in Canada.

It was Alf Hales who gave leadership to the establishment of the parliamentary internship program which operates under the auspices of the Canadian Political Science Association. That program has been mirrored in other parliamentary assemblies in many provinces.

As a new member of Parliament who has benefited from the work of an intern, I consider it an honour to be able to salute Mr. Hales' vision and to express my thanks for his work which continues to bear fruit every day in parliament.

To his family, Mrs. Hales, his wife of 62 years, their children, grandchildren and great-grandchildren, I offer the sympathy of my colleagues in their personal loss. I hope it is a comfort to them to know that Mr. Hales was one who truly made a difference. The rent has been paid in full and more.

[Brenda Chamberlain, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of Labour]

Mr. Speaker, it is with sadness that I rise now to commemorate a great citizen and a former parliamentarian, Alfred Hales, who passed away on Saturday, February 28.

Alf Hales was a long time Conservative member for the riding of Wellington South, now my riding of Guelph—Wellington. On Saturday, March 7 many people gathered in Chalmers United Church in Guelph, Ontario to say goodbye.

We said goodbye to a man whose involvement and drive for a better country and community was endless. His story is one we can look to for inspiration and one we can be proud of. His story is how a local boy gave so much to home while reaching the highest elected position in the land, a federal member of Parliament.

Born in 1909, Alf Hales attended Guelph public and high schools and graduated in 1934 from the Ontario Agricultural College, now the celebrated University of Guelph.

In 1936, during the depths of the Great Depression, he married Mary Gertrude, a marriage that lasted 62 years, right up until the day he died.

Alf Hales launched his impressive career playing football for the Toronto Argonauts of the CFL before becoming director of the Guelph YMCA. He also joined the navy reserve at the outbreak of World War II.

In quick succession, he joined the Guelph Chamber of Commerce, the Guelph Kiwanis Club and, long before environmentalism was popular, joined the Grand Valley Conservation Foundation which is still going strong today.

His political career started with his election as alderman for the city of Guelph and quickly changed to member of Parliament for Wellington South. He was the member from Guelph for seventeen and a half years, an impressive feat by anyone's standards.

Prior to his retirement in 1974, he held a number of prominent positions such as Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Labour and chair of the public accounts committee. He was known around the House as someone who was honest and a good source of quotes for the press gallery.

One of his most important accomplishments in the House of Commons was the establishment in 1970 of the parliamentary internship program. After his retirement from active national politics, he continued to receive important appointments to committees needing the wisdom of his experience. At the same time, he continued to give with vigour and energy to the community he had already given so much to.

He joined the Guelph historical society. He was a member of the Colonel John McCrae Society and he was the first non-Italian inducted as an honorary life member to the Guelph Italian-Canadian Club.

Alf Hales' life is a testimony to selfless giving to the community. As a volunteer he helped co-ordinate the fundraising committee for the Puslinch community centre. Upon completion he handed over the key to the centre to the reeve of Puslinch township without one cent owing.

The list of Alf Hales' accomplishments and contributions is long, longer than I have time for here today. I will close by saying that Alf Hales will be missed by his wife of 62 years, Mary, his children and grandchildren and by all the people whose lives he touched.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Verchères, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I rise today to pay tribute to Alfred Dryden Hales, a former member of this House, who recently passed away. I did not have the opportunity or the pleasure of meeting Mr. Hales, but in his biography I discovered a number of points we have in common.

He was born in Guelph, Ontario, in 1909 and earned a diploma in agricultural sciences in 1934. Before becoming active in his community in Guelph, he played football for the Toronto Argonauts, between 1934 and 1936. This is the first point we share, as I am an avid football fan.

He started his political life as a candidate for the Progressive Conservative Party in the 1953 federal election, but was defeated. He was elected for the first time in 1957 representing the riding of Wellington South in the House of Commons. He was re-elected in every election thereafter until his retirement from political life in 1974.

In 1962, in the Diefenbaker government, he served as Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Labour. In opposition, he chaired the Standing Committee on Public Accounts from 1966 to 1974.

He was responsible for the creation of the parliamentary internship program. In 1965, he tabled a motion in this regard. Four years later, Parliament welcomed its first interns.

As a former intern at the National Assembly, I can testify to the importance to an institution such as ours of the parliamentary internship program and I think we owe a debt of gratitude to Mr. Hales' innovative spirit and vision.

I would therefore like to offer my sincere condolences and those of all my colleagues in the Bloc Quebecois to his family and friends.

[Ken Epp, Reform, Elk Island, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I rise to pay tribute to a man of character who believed in the importance of family, the community and service to others.

On February 28 of this year Mr. Alfred Hales died at the age of 88, leaving behind his wife of 62 years, Mary Hales, three children, nine grandchildren and seven great grandchildren.

I note that Mr. and Mrs. Hales had two sets of twins, one of them deceased. I can imagine what an exciting family it was when the children were young.

In reading about the life of Mr. Hales, one is quickly struck by his sense of community and passion for causes he believed in. It is truly refreshing to read of a man who took great satisfaction from attaining goals not for himself, but with an understanding of the greater impact on those around him.

Mr. Hales was quoted in an interview at one time, commenting that community service is the rent we pay for space on earth. That was a motto with which he lived his life and, as has already been mentioned, the rent was paid in full.

In 1956 Mr. Hales had his first taste of community service by way of politics. He served as an alderman for the city of Guelph. He then went on to federal politics. He was elected to the House of Commons in 1957 and re-elected seven times. I do not think anything speaks more highly of the character of a person than his constituents choosing to re-elect him seven times.

During his 17 years as a member of Parliament, he served as Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Labour. He served on many committees and was actively involved in a number of foreign delegations.

It is, however, the parliamentary internship program which stands out as one of his greatest accomplishments. In 1970 the House of Commons, thanks to the work of Mr. Hales, saw its first class of interns. This program, still in place today, gives students from all over the country the opportunity to learn about life on the Hill.

Politics was not the only rent that Mr. Hales chose to pay. After 17 years as an MP, he retired and began to look for other ways to give back to the community. Although he was active in public causes before and during his time in Ottawa, it was following his retirement from politics that Mr. Hales took a more local approach to issues, jumping into Guelph community activities with both feet.

According to his daughter, he felt deep roots in the Guelph community because a long line of Hales' generations had lived there. That is why he worked so hard for the city, serving on the Guelph police commission, founding the Guelph prayer breakfast, fundraising for and building a community centre, preserving the history of Guelph through the historical society and serving on innumerable fundraising projects for charities.

He also had time for his four-legged friends in the community, serving as the law representative on the Ontario Veterinary Council.

Although Mr. Hales took on his activities out of a sense of duty and responsibility, he was recognized by his peers for his generosity. He was made a Paul Harris fellow by the Guelph Rotary Club. He was inducted into the University of Guelph sports hall of fame. He was awarded the certificate of merit for outstanding service to the Red Cross. He was awarded a commemorative medal on the 125th anniversary of the Confederation of Canada. He was made a Mel Osborne fellow by the Kiwanis Club of Guelph.

Although I did not know Mr. Hales personally, I believe it would be fair in the reading of his life to comment that his greatest awards and rewards were not those which I have mentioned were given to him. Instead, in the words of his son, it was strong beliefs that drove him to work so hard for others.

His son, David, is quoted as saying “father believed very strongly in family, community and his church. He was committed to all of these”.

Although many awards were given to Mr. Hales for his service, I believe it is those who have been touched by his generosity that have been truly rewarded.

We express our sincere condolences to his wife, Mary, and all the family. May they find comfort in the memory of his life well lived.

[Judy Wasylycia-Leis, NDP, Winnipeg North Centre, MB]

Mr. Speaker, I am honoured to join with other members in the House in expressing the deep condolences of all members in the New Democratic Party to the family and friends of Alf Hales and in particular to express our heart-felt sympathy to his wife, Mary, their three children, nine grandchildren and seven great grandchildren.

As has been mentioned by other members, Alf Hales was a member for Wellington South for 17 years and felt very deep roots in the Guelph community.

Having been born and raised in a community very close to Guelph, a place called Winterbourne, Ontario, I feel a particular sense of loss at hearing the news of the passing of Alf Hales.

But mostly today I single out the fact that Alf Hales was the founder of the federal parliamentary internship program. He conceived of the idea in 1965 and although it was not until 1969 that the House agreed to implement the federal parliamentary internship program, it became a reality and has been with us now for almost 30 years. That took incredible foresight, vision and courage and in fact a lot of persistence that is so evident in the career of Alfred Hales. He in fact had a private members' bill before the House year after year until finally it was agreed to and became a reality in 1969 with the first group of interns being established in 1969-70.

I rise not only as a member of the House but as a former parliamentary intern, in fact the only parliamentary intern to end up pursuing a career in federal politics. I am deeply grateful for his pioneering spirit and the contribution he has made to so many in the country.

I speak today on behalf of all federal parliamentary interns, past and present, whose lives have been enriched by this program. It has offered an incredible opportunity for so many young people over the years to combine practical learning with academic analysis, helping us all to pursue our respective careers in a more effective way.

In fact it was in 1972, and I quote from an article in Time magazine, that we get the true reason or sense of this program from Mr. Alfred Hales own words when he said: “The experiment brings the interns out of the ivory tower and puts them into a world of reality”.

By founding this program, Alfred Hales has done a great service for the country and helped ensure a high calibre of young people prepared to make a great contribution to the country.

I suggest that we can best honour the life and work of Alfred Hales by remembering our own roots, our roots in family, in church and community but more specifically by pledging to ensure that the federal parliamentary internship program continues as a part of this institution and an integral part of our parliamentary traditions.