House of Commons Hansard #69 of the 36th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was budget.

Topics

Questions On The Order PaperRoutine Proceedings

5:35 p.m.

Hull—Aylmer Québec

Liberal

Marcel Massé LiberalPresident of the Treasury Board and Minister responsible for Infrastructure

The Treasury Board is responsible for establishing the required policy framework within the Government of Canada with respect to the management and security of computer systems and networks.

Departments are responsible for protecting sensitive information and assets, such as computer and related systems, in accordance with Treasury Board policies.

Under the government security policy, the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, RCMP, is identified as a lead agency in physical and information technology security. The RCMP has been providing basic security advice to departments for many years which no doubt has reduced the number and impact of the occurrences of the theft of entire computer systems and components. In addition to the ongoing advice and guidance to departments in the areas of physical security and information technology security, the following specific measures have been taken:

Departments are encouraged to consult with the Treasury Board Secretariat, TBS, on matters of computer security and meetings are held with departments following the theft of computers or components. While TBS can work with departments to help establish additional methods of securing government assets and information, a theft should be reported to the RCMP in order for an investigation to be conducted.

The Deputy Comptroller General Branch at TBS is responsible for the policy of security for government assets. A document entitled “Guide to the Review of Material Management” is posted on the department's web site located at www.tbs-sct.gc.ca under Contract, Material and Risk Management. The main objectives of this policy are focused on the reduction of physical losses, optimizing the utilization of resources and ensuring value for money.

A guidance document entitled a “Guide to minimizing computer theft” was issued in June 1997 and is available at the RCMP's Internet site.

A RCMP investigator was seconded to the Ottawa-Carleton regional computer component theft team.

Each federal government department has a departmental security officer to deal with the RCMP. This individual is responsible for security issues particularly with respect to personnel and information technology.

Departmental security officers are members of an association that allows them to consult and share information on security issues. Each officer also reports to their respective deputy minister to keep him or her updated on matters of security.

A number of physical security devices were tested in government to lock down systems and prevent systems from being opened. For instance, computers can be bolted down to desktops.

One hundred per cent security is unattainable in any setting, nor would it be desirable because of prohibitive cost. We feel that with departments implementing the advice provided, component theft will be kept under control.

Questions On The Order PaperRoutine Proceedings

5:35 p.m.

Reform

Reed Elley Reform Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC

With respect to the Participaction program, what has the government determined to be the total cost to the Canadian taxpayer in each of the last five recorded fiscal years for money spent by this organization on advertising and other promotional activities related to its mandate?

Questions On The Order PaperRoutine Proceedings

5:35 p.m.

Etobicoke Centre Ontario

Liberal

Allan Rock LiberalMinister of Health

With respect to the Participaction program, Health Canada has provided Participaction with funds for advertising and other promotional activities related to physical activity:

1993-94—$477,000 1994-95—$420,000 1995-96—$425,000 1996-97—$275,000 1997-98 (to date)—$275,000

Questions On The Order PaperRoutine Proceedings

5:35 p.m.

Liberal

Peter Adams Liberal Peterborough, ON

Mr. Speaker, I ask that the remaining questions be allowed to stand.

Questions On The Order PaperRoutine Proceedings

5:35 p.m.

The Speaker

Is that agreed?

Questions On The Order PaperRoutine Proceedings

5:35 p.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

Questions Passed As Orders For ReturnRoutine Proceedings

5:35 p.m.

Peterborough Ontario

Liberal

Peter Adams LiberalParliamentary Secretary to Leader of the Government in the House of Commons

Mr. Speaker, if Question No. 41 could be made an order for return, this return would be tabled immediately.

Questions Passed As Orders For ReturnRoutine Proceedings

5:35 p.m.

The Speaker

Is that agreed?

Questions Passed As Orders For ReturnRoutine Proceedings

5:35 p.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed. .[Text]

Questions Passed As Orders For ReturnRoutine Proceedings

5:35 p.m.

Liberal

Mark Assad Liberal Gatineau, QC

How much has the Canadian International Development Agency (CIDA) spent during each of the last five years in each of the following areas: (a) primary health care, (b) basic education, (c) drinking water and (d) sanitary services?

Return tabled.

Questions Passed As Orders For ReturnRoutine Proceedings

5:35 p.m.

Progressive Conservative

Peter MacKay Progressive Conservative Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough, NS

Mr. Speaker, this is in relation to a question that still remains outstanding. It is No. 12. I have requested several times that we receive the answer and it is still in abeyance.

Questions Passed As Orders For ReturnRoutine Proceedings

5:40 p.m.

Liberal

Peter Adams Liberal Peterborough, ON

Mr. Speaker, I apologize once again to the member. As he says, he has asked on a number of occasions. I will continue to press for a reply.

I should point out to you though, Mr. Speaker, that this is a question that involves virtually every, if not every department in the federal government. It is taking some time to reach them all. I will continue to do my best to obtain the response.

The House resumed consideration of the motion that this House approves in general the budgetary policy of the government; and of the amendment.

The BudgetGovernment Orders

March 9th, 1998 / 5:40 p.m.

Liberal

Alex Shepherd Liberal Durham, ON

Mr. Speaker, it gives me great pleasure to enter this debate on the budget. In some real ways, this is the culmination of how I ended up here. Indeed, I spent many years wondering how it was possible that Canada can continue to go so close to the abyss of financial ruin. It was clear to me that we needed a new way to do government.

That is why the week before last it was my great pleasure to listen to the Minister of Finance bring in the first balanced budget that this country has seen in over 30 years.

One thing that is very noticeable about this budget is that it talks about education. One thing I have always believed, and it is very important, is that a country educate its people.

We talk about Canada being a resource based country and, indeed, we are but our best resources are the resources between our ears. Finding better ways to use those resources is what is going to make Canada a better country in the 21st century.

I would like to talk about productivity. Some people think this is an economic concept. What it basically means is the ability of people to use their surroundings, to use their resources in an effective way to produce products.

We have been changing our economy so that we are moving away from the resource based industries of the past and we are moving towards a service sector orientation.

For that reason, it is very difficult sometimes to measure productivity. Why am I talking about productivity? The problem of Canada and Canada's economy is that we have been lagging many of our competitors in the area of competition.

In the area of productivity, Canada lags our chief competitor, the United States, by something like 30%. Why is that? What is it going to mean for our economy? It means that our competitors are able to use technological advances quicker, more rapidly in their production capabilities as well as in their service sector than are Canadians.

Some people suggested that the decline in the value of the Canadian dollar is directly related to our decline in productivity.

The Conference Board of Canada has made a tremendous number of reports basically stating that while Canada has one of the highest per capita spending in the western world on education, we are still very much scorned in the mid-term in the areas of science and math.

Indeed, our illiteracy rate in Canada is mid-term. It is really quite a disgrace for a modern nation like ours to have illiteracy rates as high as we do. That is why I was very proud to be part of a government that brought in an accentuation that, while we have been able to manage our debt and deficit so that we have a balanced budget, we have been able to accentuate those things that are going to empower ourselves to be a better and more competitive nation in the future.

In those things, exclude that we look at the education area. I was very happy to see a restoration of funding for NSERC and the Medical Research Council. These are ways that governments can support our institutions and create more opportunities for technological advancements in our universities and colleges.

I should mention I was very proud when the Minister of Finance mentioned a college in my riding, Durham College. Indeed at the same time, the president for Durham College was in the gallery listening to that.

The next morning, I gave a post-budget breakfast in my riding for basically all the business community. I can tell this House that those people were all very happy and supportive of the budget we presented.

I can remember back in 1994 it not being that way, that there were very ugly meetings sometimes when people wanted us to move fast on this or that envelope. It has been very much that the Canadian people have come to the realization that this government brings sound, good management.

Some of the areas that this budget talked about were registered education savings plan. My background has been one of an investment adviser and accountant. When I used to practise, these registered educational savings plan we basically shunned. The reason was that they were very much a gamble on behalf of parents who wanted to save money for the support of their children going for post-secondary education, because the mean factor was that if one's kid did not go one lost the money. The benefits were great because 50% of the people did not actually go so the people who stayed in the plan of course got good rewards.

Most people are not into gambling, they are into saving for some positive returns. What has happened with these plans is that we have now made them so that if a child does not go on for post-secondary education, parents can roll them back into their registered retirement savings plan.

The government has gone one step further by providing a 20% grant. The federal government is going to put that money directly in that plan as well. There is a partnership arrangement going on between parents, their children and the federal government. I think that is a very healthy attitude. The only comment I heard from people I talked to was why did we wait so long.

It is unfortunate that the baby boomers—me with three children in post-secondary education—are not going to be able to get the benefit of that, but the reality is that it allows people to put money aside. It is a great trepidation for a lot of parents to have young children who are going to go to university which will possibly cost as much as $10,000 a year to place them there. This gives them a way in which to see that their children do get adequate education.

Another area that I found very interesting was the ability of people to withdraw up to $10,000 in any one year and a cumulative of $20,000 from their registered retirement savings plans for their own education.

It is obvious that we are living in a society of continuous learning. We have to try to find ways to encourage people to go back and learn in new and better productive facilities in which to upgrade their skills. These all come back to my original theory of increasing Canada's productivity and making us a very competitive nation as we go out to fight it out with our neighbours and other countries in the world for our share of economic development.

I once suggested that we should use the employment insurance this way. In other words, we should provide certain funding through the employment insurance system to allow people the discretion to go out and re-educate themselves. This is another way to get at the same thing.

I was listening to the radio the other day and I heard a financial planner criticizing this plan. His criticism was that the government was scheming to reduce people's RRSP savings so it could get them out and tax them. In other words, if people took out those moneys that were in their plans and went back to school, of course they would not be appreciating and therefore the government would be able to tax that money sooner. I do not think anything could be more ludicrous. The way to solve that problem is simply by reducing the benefits of RRSPs or the premium contributions.

There is no question in my mind that the government's prime purpose is to make a down payment on the whole concept of continuous learning.

As an aside, there is one other little thing here that is not about productivity that I thought I would mention, the home givers tax credit. I was in a seniors home the other day and I mentioned this credit. Everybody's eyes lit up because the government was now recognizing how we are going to have to do health care differently in this country.

We cannot continue this process of institutionalizing people at great cost when in fact many people are at home taking care of their loved ones. They are often women who need that little extra break, the $400 care giver tax credit, a down payment on a different way and a better way to health care.

In conclusion, I am very happy to be part of a government that has brought in such a sensible budget. Unfortunately it has taken us a number of years but we are going to continue on that track of reducing our deficit and debts in the future.

The BudgetGovernment Orders

5:50 p.m.

Reform

Lee Morrison Reform Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK

Madam Speaker, the hon. member talks about a sensible budget. I would like to give him an example of what this sensible budget does to some ordinary people.

I have in my hometown a young single mother named Kathy McGuire. She works for the town. She tosses garbage cans. She looks after the water supply maintenance, whatever is necessary.

This woman by any definition is not wealthy. She has been hit with an income tax bill of $800. This is how this government repays people who work hard, who try their best to get along in the world.

If Kathy had been a wealthy Toronto lawyer she would have got a $3,000 child care expense deduction from her income tax. Actually, under the new budget it will be $4,000. But this woman cannot afford child care. So there is a catch-22. She is not eligible to receive that wonderful deduction. She is caught.

Kathy has contributed to the balancing of the budget. I am sure this makes her feel really great. She has also, if one wants to be a little more cynical about this, contributed to about 1% or 2% of the cost of sending four freeloading members of Parliament to Nagano to attend the Olympics.

I would like to know if the hon. member feels that this is appropriate, that people at the bottom end of the pay scale have to be hit with taxes. I hear some yapping over there. To some of these people $800 is not a lot of money. I will tell you, it is a heck of a lot of money to people who are out there doing their best trying to make a living.

On behalf of everyone in this place I would like to extend my sincere thanks to Kathy McGuire for forking out to help keep this zoo going and for helping to balance the budget.

The BudgetGovernment Orders

5:50 p.m.

Liberal

Alex Shepherd Liberal Durham, ON

Madam Speaker, I am sure that if I knew Kathy McGuire's income perspective I could find something that was very positive about this budget, but of course this is the way the members ask their questions, just give you half of the information so you cannot possibly do that.

The reality is I am very proud of that budget because in fact we removed thousands and thousands of people, low income families and low income people, from bracket creep by increasing personal exemptions.

I have many constituents, senior citizens, who were paying taxes before who are not paying them today. That is a major commitment from the lower income people of this country.

The BudgetGovernment Orders

5:50 p.m.

Reform

Dick Harris Reform Prince George—Bulkley Valley, BC

Madam Speaker, the hon. member from the Liberal Party certainly did not answer the question from my hon. friend from Saskatchewan.

What he asked is how does the Liberal government explain its caring budget to the lady in Saskatchewan who is scraping to get by collecting cans and doing whatever she can. She cannot afford to send her child to daycare. Therefore she is ineligible for the child care tax credit.

How does this so-called Liberal caring government so proud of its budget explain that budget to this lady who has been relegated to some sort of a third class citizen because of this budget? I would like the member to explain that.

The BudgetGovernment Orders

5:55 p.m.

Liberal

Alex Shepherd Liberal Durham, ON

Madam Speaker, it is very simple to explain to the member that within the last budget, the previous budget, $850 million was given to the area of child tax credit which his constituent would have benefited from.

Let us be honest. Let us be serious. The reality is that woman is better off today than she would have been under a Reform government.

The BudgetGovernment Orders

5:55 p.m.

NDP

Libby Davies NDP Vancouver East, BC

Madam Speaker, I appreciate the opportunity to speak in response to the budget and provide the views of the New Democratic Party. I will be sharing my time with the member for Acadie—Bathurst.

We have heard a lot today and in other responses to the budget that this budget is an education budget. It is a budget for youth. We heard today in debate that it is a budget for equity, a budget for women. More recently we heard it is a remarkable budget and a sensible budget.

I want to tell the members of this House that having been in my riding, like many other members, for the past week and speaking with many of my constituents, this budget has been a huge disappointment.

In my riding of Vancouver East people are asking a very key and a very legitimate question. How will this budget improve the lives of people in east Vancouver? The response I got was that this budget is a failure.

It is a failure because if we look behind the fine lines and fancy words it is a failure because it does not address the issues of people who are unemployed. We have heard today in the House in question period of the number of people who are unemployed and because of the drastic changes to our EI program the number of people who are now ending up on welfare.

The budget failed those people. It is a failure for people who are living at and below the poverty line and who are working at minimum wage jobs or in part time work and found nothing in this budget to improve their standard of living.

This budget has failed women and we have heard a lot of discussion today about international women's day and international women's week but there is nothing in this budget about pay equity or child care, for example.

This budget also fails people who are sick and who look to our health care system and find there are enormous waiting lists or lack of service and accessibility. This budget has also failed aboriginal people who live in the urban environment. In my riding I have a very large number of urban aboriginal people who saw nothing in this budget that will address their very real concerns of unemployment, poverty, lack of access to services.

This budget also failed children who live in poor families and it fails students who are still facing massive cuts and skyrocketing tuition fees.

The plain reality is the total program spending delivered in this budget will decline to $104.5 billion in 1998-1999 from $106 billion in 1997-1998. That is a real decline in program spending despite the promises made by the finance minister that 50% of the surplus would go toward programs spending. The Liberals failed to meet even their own promise and the other reality is that not a single dollar of the cash transfers to provinces eliminated over the past three years will be restored.

I would like to focus on two issues that involve my critic areas. One is education and one deals with the child tax benefit.

The first is education. We have heard so much hype about the $2.5 billion going into the millennium fund. First of all, we have to understand that this fund will not even begin until the year 2000. Students need help today, not in the year 2000.

By the time we get to the year 2000 and this millennium fund begins with its $250 million a year, we will have seen $3.1 billion taken out of post-secondary education. That is devastating to our institutions, our universities, our community colleges and our places of higher learning.

The finance minister had a choice to restore the funding to the provinces so we could strengthen post-secondary educational facilities and ensure tuition fees would not continue to go up and up. The government did not make that choice. The choice it made was to set up a private foundation so it could hand out little cheques every now and again to 7% of students, which means that 93% of students will not be assisted by the millennium fund.

In a most cynical ploy the finance minister in all of his background papers told us there were plans to change the bankruptcy laws to ensure students are not able to declare bankruptcy until 10 years after they complete their studies, which is a change from the current two years. If the government believes so strongly that it is helping students, why has it so cynically changed the bankruptcy laws?

In British Columbia, Premier Clark announced a few days ago that for the third year in a row tuition fees would be frozen. That is the kind of leadership we wanted to see from the Liberal government. It would say to students that we understand their debt loads are too high, that tuition fees must be frozen and that we are willing to support provincial transfers to increase post-secondary educational facilities.

The child tax benefit is another issue. Every time the question of unemployment and poverty comes up in the House we hear the minister crow about the child tax benefit and what a glorious program it is. I heard the minister say that it is the most significant social policy since the 1960s.

I will explain what the reality is. This is not an anti-poverty measure. We are talking about a program where the additional $425 million will not even begin until July 1999. So much for helping poor kids who live in poor families. What will that help be? It will be a measly 80 cents a day. That is what we are saying to kids. The child tax benefit is not indexed and does not apply to people on welfare. There is not one mention in the budget about a national child care program.

If the government truly cares about poverty, about helping unemployed people and about equality as we heard today in glowing terms, why does the budget fail to address any of these measures? The reality is that the budget that was announced and debated will not close the gap between the wealthy and five million Canadians who are struggling to make ends meet and who are living below the poverty line.

The Reform Party says that it wants tax cuts. I will read from an article by Seth Klein of the Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives published in the Canadian Review of Social Policy . The key goal is job creation. That should be the government's priority. The paper points out very eloquently that tax cuts are an inefficient way to create jobs. The tax cut theory rests on the unsubstantiated hope that consumers will spend more, that this in turn will translate into companies hiring more people, and that the evidence suggests direct government hiring and spending would create substantially more jobs than tax cuts.

If we pursue this information further we see from the latest information from Informetrica that directing $1 billion toward new government hiring would create 25,000 jobs in the first year. In contrast $1 billion toward personal income tax would create only 9,000 jobs.

There is a very real issue about what course the government has chosen. After four years of a slash and burn approach, of cutting the transfers to the provinces, not one new dollar was included in the budget in terms of restoring and reinvesting in education and social programs. It is the height of cynicism and hypocrisy that even the measures around the child tax benefit will do nothing to seriously alleviate poverty.

Did the budget speak to a progressive taxation system? Absolutely not. There was silence on that measure.

Did the budget deal with the $7.5 billion that the banks are racking up in profits? Did it speak to reinvesting that money so that ordinary Canadians could benefit? There was not a word about that.

In closing, according to my constituents and other people across Canada the budget failed miserably to address the growing inequality in Canada. It lacked the leadership, the vision and the courage to tackle head on the crisis of unemployment and the lack of jobs.

The reality is that this was a banker's budget, not a people's budget.

The BudgetGovernment Orders

6:05 p.m.

Liberal

Brenda Chamberlain Liberal Guelph—Wellington, ON

Madam Speaker, the hon. member talks about the budget being so terrible. I represent Guelph which has a university. Its president has written to say that this is a good budget. He is very pleased because of all the things for students, for the university, and for research and development.

When I hear the hon. member yelling and hollering about how terrible everything is, it brings to mind the fact that we had an NDP government in Ontario which spent way more than it could afford. It lasted four years and was kicked severely out of office because it never ever balanced a budget. It never spent within its means.

I am afraid the member across the way is dreaming in Technicolor to think everyone can afford everything. We have balanced the deficit. We have a zero deficit after many years. The member should recognize that there is a balancing act. We have put huge amounts of money into health care and education. Eighty per cent of the budget represents a spending in health care and education.

While the member is aghast, she need only look at the $1.5 billion in transfers and the megadollars put into many projects for students that will benefit my community and others all across Canada.

In my constituency office I have had very positive reviews on the budget. I wish the hon. member could somehow talk about the fact that even in the NDP's election campaign it overspent and had to issue another book because it had spent so much.

The member needs a little dose of reality. Does she not think that it is important to spend on education as we have in these projects?

The BudgetGovernment Orders

6:05 p.m.

NDP

Libby Davies NDP Vancouver East, BC

Madam Speaker, I see reality every day in my riding of Vancouver East. I understand what it is about for people who live in poor housing, who are without work or who do not have adequate health care resources and so on.

I ask the hon. member to check the facts. The budget did not increase spending for health care. If the member checks the facts, program spending is actually decreasing from $106 billion in 1997-98 to $104.5 billion in 1998-99. If we just want to look at education, there is not one increase in dollars for the transfers to the provinces in education.

The government has announced a shell game, a $2.5 billion millennium fund over a 10 year period or $250 million a year. By the time that program starts we will have lost $3.1 billion from post-secondary education.

Those are the facts and that is the reality. That is why tuition fees and student debt will continue to go up despite the bits of window dressing the government has brought in.

The BudgetGovernment Orders

6:10 p.m.

Reform

Jason Kenney Reform Calgary Southeast, AB

Madam Speaker, on the weekend I happened to be in the hon. member's constituency of Vancouver East. I understand the difficult social and economic conditions of which she speaks.

The east end of Vancouver in many respects is a tragic scene of economic devastation and social problems. For six years now British Columbia has been governed by a New Democratic government which has raised taxes and in so doing increased unemployment, reducing opportunities for the people who now find themselves on skid row in Vancouver.

The same thing happened in Ontario. Bob Rae raised taxes and unemployment skyrocketed. If we look at Ontario we see that the Mike Harris government has cut taxes, revenues have gone up, with them health care spending has gone up and so too has employment. Unemployment has gone down.

I ask the hon. member to compare her constituency to the city of Calgary, for instance, which is in the province that has the lowest provincial taxes in the country and an unemployment rate of approximately 5%, nearly a third of what it is in the east end of Vancouver.

Could she comment on the regional disparities with respect to taxes and economic growth which exist in the country?

The BudgetGovernment Orders

6:10 p.m.

NDP

Libby Davies NDP Vancouver East, BC

Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. member for his question and his comment. I would be happy to show him what life is like in Vancouver East. He said that he visited there recently. I would be happy to provide more detail about the impact of federal cuts over the years.

It needs to be said that the situation in British Columbia and in other provinces has worsened because of the incredible devastation caused by the lack of transfer payments and the diminishing transfer payments from the federal government. If the Reform Party and the member cannot acknowledge that, they are only telling part of the story.

In B.C. we are very fortunate that we still have a provincial government which, for example, is committed to the provision, the development and the financing of social housing. When he talks about the people of my riding who are in very dire circumstances, I would think he should be the first one to recognize the fact that the Government of B.C. has continued to provide housing for very low income people.

There was no mention of housing in the budget. If we want to talk about jobs, what better program to generate jobs than a good housing program? That is something the B.C. government has done.

When it comes to education, despite the cuts from the federal government the province of British Columbia has maintained and in fact has increased funding for education above that of any other province, as well as funding for health care. It has also maintained a tuition freeze for three years.

That is something we should be proud of. That is something the federal government should be following and working to implement with other provinces.

The BudgetGovernment Orders

6:10 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Ms. Thibeault)

It being 6.15 p.m., it is my duty to interrupt the proceedings and put forthwith every question necessary to dispose of the amendment now before the House.

Is the House ready for the question?

The BudgetGovernment Orders

6:10 p.m.

Some hon. members

Question.