Debates of May 6th, 1998

Canada Lands Surveyors Act

[The Acting Speaker (Ms. Thibeault)]

Order, please. Pursuant to Standing Order 38, it is my duty to inform the House that the questions to be raised tonight at the time of adjournment are as follows: the hon. member for Madawaska—Restigouche, Seniors Benefits; the hon. member for Charlotte, Hepatitis C; the hon. member for Lévis, Shipbuilding; the hon. member for Yukon, Reforestation.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Madam Speaker, as the NDP critic for natural resources, I rise today in support of Bill C-31, the Canada Lands Surveyors Act.

This bill is the result of five years of consultation and development. This consultation involved several departments, including Indian and Northern Affairs Canada, Indian reserves and lands that have been surrendered, land claims, the Yukon, the Northwest Territories, offshore regions, Heritage Canada, Parks Canada, Natural Resources Canada and the divisions responsible for petroleum, gas and subsoil and offshore mineral rights.

This legislation is required because of existing gaps in the complaints and discipline procedure. It is also required to ensure that complaints are handled fairly and properly.

This bill concerns surveyors working on Dominion lands, that is, lands in the Northwest Territories and the Yukon, aboriginal lands, national parks and offshore areas.

This bill will transfer to the Association of Canada Lands Surveyors responsibilities with respect to the granting of commissions, regulations and disciplinary measures applicable to lands surveyors of Canada. Until now, these functions came under the surveyor general at Natural Resources Canada.

This will give Canada lands surveyors more voice in their own affairs. They will be able to elect some members of the council which will be responsible for running the association.

Currently it is the Minister of Natural Resources acting through the governor in council who appoints members of the board of examiners.

However, I have concern regarding certain sections of this bill. Section 12(1) stipulates:

1. (1) The president and vice-president of the association shall be appointed or elected in accordance with the bylaws.

I believe it is important that these two positions be filled by the people elected by the membership. The positions of president and vice-president are key positions that will determine the direction the association will take.

For these reasons it is only logical that the membership determines who will run the association.

It is important to note that this idea of self-regulation is not new. Provincial surveyors are all regulated by provincial associations. The proposed change reflects what has already been implemented in 10 provincial jurisdictions. In my province of New Brunswick, the surveyors' association was established in 1954. As we can see, it works for the public and for surveyors.

Reforms such as this one often imply a loss of jobs in a government department. This is one of those rare situations where self-regulation does not involve any layoffs.

The fact that no one is directly responsible for managing the complaint and discipline processes shows how necessary this legislation is. Surveyors must be accountable for their actions to those who make use of their services.

This self-regulation process also has its limits. Even though some responsibilities are transferred, the Minister of Natural Resources reserves the right to intervene if he is of the opinion that the association is not fulfilling its mandate.

I talked to surveyors in my riding, and they assured me that their interests will be adequately served by the Association of Canada Lands Surveyors. They referred to the New Brunswick surveyors association as an example of a self-regulatory body that works well. It is important that we listen to these people. After all, they are the ones who will be most affected by the changes.

Finally, the Association of Canada Lands Surveyors will be able to fulfil a role which, until now, had been completely ignored by the Department of Natural Resources. Since the association is made up of surveyors, it will be able to design and maintain proper training for its members.

We all know how important it is to see that every group provides training for its members and ensures the renewal of its workforce. This legislation allows the Association of Canada Lands Surveyors to take over continuing education, to ensure that its members get the best possible training.

The only adverse effect of this bill seems to be the increase in fees for permits and liability insurance. This increase will have to be borne by the surveyors, which means they will be passed on to the consumers.

Except for this minor reservation, we should see pass Bill C-31 immediately. Canada's surveyors have waited five years for this legislation. The time has come to act.

[Jean Dubé, Progressive Conservative, Madawaska—Restigouche, NB]

Madam Speaker, let me begin my comments by giving some background on Canada Lands Surveyors. Canada Lands Surveyors performs surveys required for the legal transfer and registration of rights to real estate properties in Yukon, Northwest Territories, Canada's offshore, Indian reserves and Canada's national parks.

Currently provincially regulated lands surveyors perform these functions in each province except for Canada's offshore, Indian reserves and national parks. The Canada Lands Surveyors at present operates under the authority of the Surveyor General of Canada which is part of Natural Resources Canada.

This bill will change this relationship, transferring responsibilities for the regulation to the Association of Canada Lands Surveyors.

This bill would authorize the Association of Canada Lands Surveyors to be a self-regulating association with responsibilities for all aspects of commissioning Canada lands surveyors.

The bill would authorize the association to establish the standards of qualification, knowledge, skill, conduct and practice of Canada lands surveyors.

Furthermore, this bill would authorize the Association of Canada Lands Surveyors to grant commissions to persons who have acquired the appropriate educational qualifications and work experience.

This bill will also give the Association of Canada Lands Surveyors the power to hear complaints and institute a discipline process concerning the conduct of Canada lands surveyors. Some of these discipline powers would include the removal of licences, as well as memberships and commissions of Canada lands surveyors who have been found guilty of professional misconduct or incompetence.

The bill also requires Canada lands surveyors to maintain a membership in the association and a licence to practise in order to be able to perform surveys on Canadian lands.

As well, this bill gives the Association of Canada Lands Surveyors the power to make regulations concerning professional examinations and professional standards for Canada lands surveyors.

This bill also provides for the appointment of a board of the association. The board would be comprised of five members. The current board of examiners under the old act would become redundant.

The Minister of Natural Resources would make appointments to this board. Remuneration for board members would be set by guidelines fixed by Treasury Board. Members that would be required to travel to meetings of the board would have their living and travel expenses covered.

The Surveyor General of Canada will continue to manage surveys under this legislation, as well as establishing standards for those surveys.

Also remaining under the authority of the surveyor general is the management and maintenance of the survey system and survey frameworks for Canada lands.

The Surveyor General of Canada will also retain control of the boundaries of Canada lands. The custody and record of the surveys will also continue under the auspices of the surveyor general.

The Progressive Conservative Party views this bill as a housekeeping matter. The possible exception is that the Minister of Natural Resources would make appointments to the five member board of the association. With that in mind, we support in principle the thrust of this bill.

[Dave Chatters, Reform, Athabasca, AB]

Madam Speaker, I want to ask the member a question of clarification. I thought he said that the board would consist of five members. It is my understanding that the board would consist of the president, the vice-president, the past president and three members, the Surveyor General of Canada and two persons appointed by the government. That is considerably more than five members. I was confused by his explanation.

I have some concerns, this being a non-government organization, a professional organization that will be responsible to its membership, with an ex-officio member being the Surveyor General of Canada, about what the requirement would be for the minister to have two patronage appointment positions on the board.

[Jean Dubé, Progressive Conservative, Madawaska—Restigouche, NB]

Madam Speaker, when I spoke of the five members I meant the five non-executive members. With the executive members I think the hon. member's number is accurate.

I believe the patronage appointments are more in the area of five, not three, because the five directors that are to be appointed by the minister are certainly going to be, as far as I am concerned, patronage appointments.

[Gurmant Grewal, Reform, Surrey Central, BC]

Madam Speaker, I listened to the debate of the previous three speakers but, as I understand it, we are not allowed to put questions to previous speakers. However, I have some questions which I would like to ask the hon. member who just spoke.

The Canada Lands Surveyors, as I understand it, is responsible for public domain lands of the Government of Canada, which include Yukon, the Northwest Territories, Indian reserves, national parks, offshore sites, national wildlife areas and migratory birds sanctuaries.

The purpose of Bill C-31 is to establish the Association of Canada Lands Surveyors as a self-governing association which will substitute its board of examiners to establish, under the Canada Lands Surveyors Act, the authority responsible for the examination, admission and qualifications of candidates for commission as Canada lands surveyors.

I have no hesitation in supporting this bill, particularly because this bill is an effort to transfer responsibility to the private sector. I believe the private sector can better regulate its members.

Furthermore, this transfer will result in a cost reduction to the departmental budget.

It is very important for us to define what a Canada lands surveyor is responsible for. Can the member throw some light on what is the definition of the role of the Canada lands surveyors?

[Jean Dubé, Progressive Conservative, Madawaska—Restigouche, NB]

Madam Speaker, I thank the member for being attentive to my speech.

If I was a minister of the crown I could probably answer better what the member is asking. I sort of agree with the member's comments, but I think his question would be better directed to government.

[Derrek Konrad, Reform, Prince Albert, SK]

Madam Speaker, the member called this a housekeeping matter. I would say that it is more in the nature of a motherhood issue that everyone could agree with. Housekeeping, to me, says that we are cleaning up something that previously existed, whereas in this case we are building something. We are establishing for the first time legislation to give the Canada lands surveyors self-governing authority. I would like a response to that comment.

[Jean Dubé, Progressive Conservative, Madawaska—Restigouche, NB]

Madam Speaker, I would like to thank the member for the housekeeping comment.

The reason for that comment was to identify the patronage appointments that the government will be making.

[Derrek Konrad, Reform, Prince Albert, SK]

Madam Speaker, I would like to thank the member for Humber—St. Barbe—Baie Verte for his kind comments about lands surveyors because I am a lands surveyor myself and I agree with his comments.

As a member of a provincial lands surveyors association it gives me great pleasure to speak today to Bill C-31, the Canada Lands Surveyors Act.

Historically dominion lands surveyors, the predecessors of the Canada lands surveyors, had a special role to play in the development of this country. They were issued commissions for the purpose of undertaking surveys of dominion lands. The most obvious and enduring aspect of the work is the dominion lands survey system in western Canada which had its origin at the first principal meridian just west of Winnipeg and its first base line at the Canadian-American border.

The majority of the occupied land in the west is subdivided into one-mile squares which is the most noticeable feature from the air. When flying in to any of the western airports we see that the land is laid out in a rectangular fashion. It is very orderly. Even satellite photos of the prairies show the DLS system of subdivision.

The importance of surveys in the historic and future development of Canada is indisputable.

Surveyors were and remain Canada's explorers. It was surveyors who not only subdivided but mapped this country's frontiers. They also established the borders of this country on the ground after the political decision was made to accept the international boundary as the 49th parallel.

An interesting aside is that American surveyors usually ended up north of the British surveyors, or the other way around, when they made their astronomy shots to determine the exact parallel. Usually the decision was made to split the difference.

Furthermore, surveyors are called on daily to resolve boundary disputes, leading to peaceful relations among members of the public.

The prairies were surveyed during a few decades of intense work as the west was opened up for development and settlers poured in. Legislators of the time recognized the need for an orderly method of subdividing and conveying land to the settlers and also for setting aside the tracts of land reserved for Indians.

The system was developed by Colonel J. S. Dennis and the bulk of the work was carried out for many years under the direction of Dr. Edouard Deville, Surveyor General.

As the western territory was divided into provinces the new provinces assumed control of their lands and the survey of them. The task was undertaken by provincial survey associations which operated under provincial legislation. The legislation provided the means by which the associations governed themselves. They had the authority to elect their own councils, appoint educational and disciplinary committees and pass bylaws to ensure that a high level of competence and professionalism was maintained.

In the provinces land surveys are the responsibility of provincially legislated land survey associations. All provincial land surveyors' associations are self-governing and accountable to the public.

Through the years since provincial associations have been responsible for the maintenance and extension of the survey fabric within the provinces the only change the Dominion Lands Surveyors have had was incorporation in 1985 and a name change. Dominion Lands Surveyors are now officially known as Canada Lands Surveyors. They remain without an elected national executive. They do not have an association directed professional examination committee. They have no registrar nor do they have a discipline committee to investigate complaints and take action against a member found to be in violation of standards of professional conduct.

The legislation before the House today establishes the Association of Canada Lands Surveyors as a self-governing association with all of the powers and responsibilities that entails. For instance, the association will now be able to establish and enforce the standards to qualify for the granting of commissions. This means they will determine appropriate educational levels and standards of professional conduct and skill required both to obtain and maintain a CLS commission. Bill C-31 will enable the Association of Canada Lands Surveyors to create the necessary committees to investigate malpractice complaints and to establish discipline committees which will be empowered to conduct hearings and determine what disciplinary measures are appropriate in individual cases. This will advance the public interest.

Under the new legislation the association will be able to create a practice review committee charged with the responsibility for ensuring that those who are commissioned for the survey of federal lands maintain a high standard of professionalism.

In the same vein the new act will make it possible for the association to maintain a continuing education program for its members so that the public can have confidence that the surveyors engaged are well prepared for the task.

In line with other jurisdictions, the surveyor general has retained the powers necessary to ensure the ongoing integrity of the survey system. He will continue to retain control of the technical standards for surveys. These include ensuring that surveys comply in all respects with the Canada Lands Surveys Act and regulations, that the surveys meet standards for accuracy of the field work, proper documentation of surveys, including preparation of plans, and monumentation of the survey on the ground.

Despite the many positive features of this legislation there remains one concern. We note that there is a provision for the minister to appoint two members to the governing council. While we in the Reform Party endorse input from the public to ensure professional organizations act in the public interest, we have two concerns with this clause. First, it does not specifically state that the members are to be lay persons and not professional surveyors who may also be members of the civil service. This would defeat the purpose of this requirement.

[Gurmant Grewal, Reform, Surrey Central, BC]

Madam Speaker, I rise on a point of order. I do not mean to interrupt the hon. member while he is giving a good speech but there does not seem to be a quorum in the House.

[The Acting Speaker (Ms. Thibeault)]

Call in the members. And the bells having rung :

[The Acting Speaker (Ms. Thibeault)]

There is now a quorum.

[Derrek Konrad, Reform, Prince Albert, SK]

Madam Speaker, I was talking about the possibility for patronage in this bill and I will continue in that line.

While we recognize that it would be impossible to legislate it, what a great day it would be if the Liberal government did not abuse the appointment process to reward loyal Liberal Party members, fundraisers, defeated candidates, friends of friends and that sort of thing. However, based on their recent record of patronage appointments we are not confident that this will not happen.

The legislation is important and timely so, despite the reservations expressed, the Reform Party will support it and seek amendments.

I also do not want to be uncharitable to the Minister of Natural Resources and the government but they really do not deserve credit for this legislation.

As a land surveyor, I am aware of the years of effort by the associations to have this legislation drafted and introduced in the House of Commons.

Most Canada lands surveyors also hold provincial commissions so they know the benefits of a self-governing professional society. Without their invaluable input this legislation would not have got off the ground.

This legislation is not ground breaking. It simply raises the Association of Canada Lands Surveyors to the same status as a provincial association. It has taken the government years to get from incorporation to legislation. Congratulations are due to the surveyors for their commitment to the creation of this new professional association.

[The Acting Speaker (Ms. Thibeault)]

Is the House ready for the question?

[Some hon. members]

Question.

[The Acting Speaker (Ms. Thibeault)]

The question is on the motion. Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

(Motion agreed to, bill read the second time and, by unanimous consent, the House went into committee of the whole thereon, Ms. Thibeault in the chair)

[The Assistant Deputy Chairman]

Order. House in committee of the whole on Bill C-31, an act respecting Canada lands surveyors.

(Clauses 2 to 12 inclusive agreed to)

[The Assistant Deputy Chairman]

Shall clause 13 carry?

[Some hon. members]

On division.

(Clause 13 agreed to)

(Clauses 14 to 16 inclusive agreed to)

[The Assistant Deputy Chairman]

Shall clause 17 carry?

[An hon. member]

On division.

(Clause 17 agreed to)

(Clauses 18 to 42 inclusive agreed to)

[The Assistant Deputy Chairman]

Shall Clause 43 carry?

[An hon. member]

On division.

(Clause 43 agreed to)

(Clauses 44 to 104 inclusive agreed to)

(Clause 1 agreed to)

(Title agreed to)

(Bill reported)