Madam Speaker, I am glad to have the opportunity today to debate Bill C-9, the Nisga'a implementation treaty.
What I am really disappointed about is the way the whole thing has developed. We have seen again the government's misuse of government power. Time allocation was imposed on the Nisga'a bill at second reading, which was something like the 58th time the Liberal government has used time allocation or cut off debate since 1993. It took Brian Mulroney's administration nine years to get to that figure, but the Liberal government only took six. This is a terrible affront to Canadian citizens. This is a very historic moment in our time. I believe historians will look back at this time and ask “What were they thinking about? Why was debate cut off? Why did they not discuss the very wide implications of what they were doing?”
In regard to the Nisga'a itself, there has been a considerable change in the attitude of the courts since the NDP government of B.C. was elected in 1991. There are no treaties in effect in B.C. and there never were. Therefore, there is some need to do that. There has been a tremendous change in the B.C. NDP government. It has essentially acquiesced. It did not put up a fight in regard to these land claims. It let the supreme court make decisions without any argument on the con side.
The reason I say that it will be an historic debate and an historic time for Canada is partly because of what the Indian affairs minister said a few days ago, which is on the minds of most Canadians. It will be on the minds of more Canadians as they learn more about this treaty and where we are going. What the Indian affairs minister said was that what we are doing with the Delgamuukw, the Nisga'a and the east coast lobster fishery is leading to a claim on all the resources of Canada.
I see it in my riding of Peace River where the former minister of Indian affairs and northern development came up with a memorandum of understanding about opening up all of Treaty 8. One hundred years after Treaty 8 was signed, the minister has now reached an agreement, which says in essence that we are going to open it up, we are going to give them more money and more land. It would be a done deal were it not for the Alberta government saying “Just a minute. There are a lot of claims on that land through resource companies, forestry, oil and gas interests. This is public land”.
What effect has it had in my riding? It has had the serious effect of really depressing investment. Who would invest when they do not know who the owner will be and what the terms will be as a result of that ownership?
The minister let the cat out of the bag, but essentially most people need to be very clearly aware that this is just a first step in a very long journey.
Let us deal with that for a moment. When our ancestors came to this country I do not think there was anyone who did not recognize that the aboriginal people were the first people here. That is an absolute given. Did they have the use of the land? Of course they did. They had the use of the land before we got here.
There are now about 300,000 aboriginal people living on reserve. There are about 400,000 living off reserve. Because things have gone off the rails so badly on the reserves they do not even participate. They are living in other areas off reserve, mostly in cities such as Winnipeg. That leaves over 29 million other Canadians who have to be dealt with. We have to come to some kind of accommodation here. It does not mean that we will give away the entire country to 300,000 on reserve and 400,000 off reserve. Is that the answer? Of course not.
A lot of us came from other areas. My ancestors came from Scotland, a land that was taken away by the English. Does that mean I should put in a land claim there? Some of my ancestors came from France, from the religious wars, from the Protestant side that were driven out of France. I am going to France for a vacation this year. Do I look up to see where my ancestors came from and put in a land claim there? Of course not. We simply have to treat people on the basis of equality in the country; equal opportunity for everybody involved.
I want to say from the outset what the Reform Party is saying about how we should be treating aboriginal people in Canada. It is all on the basis of equality. We want a fresh start for all aboriginal people. I have several reserves in my riding. I see the poverty there. I also see rich people who hire expert advisers from the United States paying them $150,000 a year for advice on medical facilities and on all kinds of things to try to start businesses on reserves. They are leeches living off the system. Other people are living in abject poverty on those reserves. Is that what we want to perpetuate? I do not think so.
We want aboriginal people to be full and equal partners in Canadian society. We want aboriginal women to be full and equal partners both on and off reserve. We want aboriginal families to be protected by the same laws that govern non-aboriginal families. We want aboriginal people to have the same rights and protections that every Canadian enjoys. We want to eliminate the discriminatory barriers that widen the gulf between aboriginal and non-aboriginal people. I see this every day in my riding. We want to ensure a bright future for all Canadians regardless of the colour of their skins. What we are looking for is equality for all.
How will the treaty accommodate that? I would suggest that it fails miserably. People will become aware, just as they did with the Charlottetown accord, the great debate on the constitution, and with the Meech Lake accord before that, of the contents of the Nisga'a treaty and the wider implications for all Canadians.
A Liberal member from southwestern Ontario found out firsthand what happens when there is a land claim in an area. The Indian affairs department buys up farmland and pays exorbitant prices in order to accumulate enough land for a reserve. The local farmers cannot compete for the land. That is the kind of awareness I am talking about.
I suggest at some point there will be a land claim made for the Bay Street area of Toronto. Members should try to put some numbers together on what that will cost because the aboriginal people were there first and had the use of that land. Is that going to be the criteria by which we judge this? The finance department should come up with an estimate of what the cost might be.
I just want to read a Globe and Mail article that was in the paper this weekend. It states:
This week, the Finance Department produced a $200 billion figure—the worst-case scenario if Canada's native communities getting everything they are currently claiming in litigation and land claims. It is a staggering amount, more than what Ottawa collects each year on taxes and revenues.
Even so, the figure is incomplete:
It is incomplete because it does not include what the government has already spent on settlements. It does not account for the several thousand lawsuits that have yet to be filed. It does not account for the additional 57 major land claims, including the bulk of the province of British Columbia.
Even while we are debating the Nisga'a treaty, other groups living in the area are saying “No, that is partly our land. You have taken some of our land in this Nisga'a agreement and we have a claim in on that land as well”. We see there are overlapping claims. If we read our history books we know that the earlier explorers who came out here knew that the land changed hands. There were wars from time time. It was in one group's possession at a certain time and in another group's possession at another time.
What is the cost? It is $200 billion and counting. We have a government that is completely out of control. I want to talk about the local implications for my riding and for the national scene.
I will now talk about a good friend of mine, Archie Calliou, who is now deceased. He was an Indian who never took a treaty. I met with him many times and he would say to me “Charlie, the sooner this system is beaten down and every aboriginal person on earth has equality of status the same as the rest us the better”. He would tell me that his father told him to never take a treaty because he would be on welfare the rest of his life.
He married a woman from the Sucker Creek Band at High Prairie who had been on treaty. She got away from the treaty and began working in a hospital in the Beaverlodge area. They owned a home, had a holiday trailer and took vacations. He worked for years and years on substance abuse on reserves. He said that if the system was allowed to continue, 100 years from now it would be exactly the same. There would be a tremendous waste of the potential of aboriginal people. He said that the reserve system had to be broken down. There are no property rights on reserve and no incentive for somebody who really wants to get ahead because it is communal property. He said that the sooner we did away with the system the better.
I am voting against the bill. I think every Canadian should be aware of the serious implications it poses.