Debates of Nov. 15th, 1999

West Coast Ports

[The Deputy Speaker]

Does the hon. member for Wild Rose have the unanimous consent of the House to propose the motion?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[Some hon. members]

No.

Request For Emergency Debate

[The Deputy Speaker]

Earlier today the hon. member for Langley—Abbotsford moved for leave to seek the adjournment of the House for the purpose of an emergency debate on this issue. In light of the conclusion of the matter which has been announced by the minister, the Chair is of the view that the application for an emergency debate does not meet the exigencies of the standing order at this time. Accordingly, there will be no emergency debate this evening on that motion.

I also wish to inform the House that, because of the ministerial statement, Government Orders will be extended by eight minutes.

The House resumed consideration of the motion that Bill C-11, an act to authorize the divestiture of the assets of, and to dissolve, the Cape Breton Development Corporation, to amend the Cape Breton Development Corporation Act and to make consequential amendments to other Acts, be read the second time and referred to a committee, and of the amendment.

Cape Breton Development Corporation Divestiture Authorization And Dissolution Act

[The Deputy Speaker]

The hon. member for Vancouver Island North has the floor. He has fifteen and one-half minutes remaining in his allotted time.

[John Duncan, Reform, Vancouver Island North, BC]

Mr. Speaker, it is a little difficult to have my speech interrupted but it was an important issue and it was certainly the right thing to do.

Earlier in my speech I went into some family and personal background on coal mining. We are here to talk about Bill C-11 which authorizes the winding up of Devco, one of the most embarrassing public taxpayer funded exercises seen in Canada.

Now that the government has pulled the plug we have a painful and awkward situation for which there is no easy solution. When the government announced the closing of Devco in January of this year, the minister was booed. Miners were loudly upset. The minister was quoted as saying that the government will stand by Devco's employees in the coming days “just as we have supported Devco over the last 30 years, just as Canada has supported Cape Breton since Confederation”. If Canada has been supporting Cape Breton since Confederation and Devco for 30 years and if this is where we are now, then surely it is time to try some other approach.

Father Bob Neville of New Waterford, Nova Scotia hit the nail on the head when he said:

We have to rid ourselves of an archaic, patronage driven economic development model. [We have to] come up with a new development agenda, based on the people of the Island rather than politicians in backrooms making decisions for their friends.

The question we must all ask is that given the decades of politicization of coal mining in the maritimes, why should anyone believe that the government can handle the sale or dissolution of Devco now without some of the same problems? We also have to ask ourselves who will benefit from the sale of Devco? The public interest and the Devco employees must not be compromised because the government is once again favouring its friends. That is the track record of senior governments on this issue and that is what must not be allowed to occur again.

The main problem I have with Bill C-11 as it is currently written is its lack of open accountability. We have called for transparency in government for years. The original Devco act of 1967 stated in subsection 17(1) that Devco shall submit to the minister a plan for the “progressive reduction of coal production—and discontinuation of coal production from mines that are not economically viable, and the plan shall take into account progress in providing employment outside the coal producing industry and in broadening the base of the economy of Cape Breton Island”. This is a mandatory provision using the word shall. The government is failing to live up to its own recommendations.

At the very beginning of Bill C-11, it is stated in subclause 2(2) that subsections 99(2) to (5) of the Financial Administration Act do not apply to the authorization of Devco to sell its assets. These very subsections of the Financial Administration Act effectively say that crown corporations may sell property only in accordance with the regulations.

It is true that Devco was originally set up so that it was allowed to dispose of its assets on its discontinuation. It is imperative that if the government intends to remove these sections of the Financial Administration Act from applying to the sale of Devco as the legislation currently reads, those removed provisions must be replaced by new provisions that bring accountability and public scrutiny to the process. Otherwise we are back to cabinet being in charge of all information without the necessity for public disclosure, and the public interest will lose out to political considerations once again.

I am concerned about the lack of transparency and accountability in the whole process. From the beginning the whole Devco situation has been tainted by rumours that individuals connected with the government have benefited from federal money. It is essential the government open up the process of divesting itself of Devco.

We all hope that this process leads to continued employment for Cape Breton miners. The best opportunity for that to occur is to eliminate the political decision making in favour of investment decision making freed of those shackles.

I have not used all my time, but that is the conclusion of my speech.

[Joe Jordan, Liberal, Leeds—Grenville, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I was not planning on participating in this debate but a couple of things struck a chord with me.

Really what we are talking about with the bill is independent of whether the amounts that are being suggested are enough. We have to back up and ask what we are trying to do with that money. If the plan is to simply continue with the pipeline of cash and create a dependency in Cape Breton, then it is probably not enough money because there is not enough money.

I have heard a lot of talk about economics today. I have not heard a lot of talk about social sustainability. I have not heard a lot of talk about environmental sustainability. If what we are trying to do is to develop the economy of Cape Breton, what we have to do is back up and look at what the government's objective is. Clearly it is to try to develop the capacity of Cape Breton to have a sustainable economy. That is in the best interests of the government because we will end up with a vibrant economy that can be taxed and which can supply money into the government coffers.

I listened to and watched the antics of my hon. colleague from the NDP. I say sincerely that I do not think he is doing the cause any good in the long term. He mentioned that people in Canada are watching this on TV. I would make the same point to him. People are watching this on TV and when he rips up hunks of paper and throws them in the air and calls what the government is doing Mickey Mouse, a lot of people in other parts of the country may not think it is Mickey Mouse.

I want to focus on Leeds—Grenville. I have been in this job for a little over two years. Leeds—Grenville is a community on the border. Prior to NAFTA we had tremendous opportunities because there were border tariffs. The American companies would come across the border and build a plant to serve the Canadian market and circumvent the tariffs.

The border communities in eastern Ontario have a lot of branch plants of American companies. We had good employment through the 1950s, 1960s and 1970s. With the NAFTA, like it or not, there was a major shift in the tariff policies of the government. As the global companies shifted to scale economies and plants to serve global markets these branch plants no longer fit into the equation.

I am certainly not suggesting that the problems of Leeds—Grenville in eastern Ontario compare with Cape Breton, but they are not that far off. I have a list in front of me of six plants which closed in the last two years in my riding and 1,700 people were put out of work. I am not saying that jobs were not created, but the people who were displaced from these heavy manufacturing companies are not the kind of people who are picked up in the new economy. We have major problems with transition.

I look at what the government is doing in Cape Breton. I have the numbers before me. I am not claiming to be an expert on this, but there was a $69 million loan that was forgiven, $41 million to cover Devco's expenses to the end of the year, $111 million for the employees and human resource needs and then $68 million for economic development. The member says that is a slap in the face, but there are 1,700 people in Leeds—Grenville who would just love a slap in the face like that.

I am not saying that he is right or he is wrong, but his method of delivery is sending a message that I do not think will serve the interests of the people of Cape Breton. It is a very serious issue, but we are not trying to create dependencies.

The NDP members were jollying it up with Reform members earlier about how the old style did not work. I was not party to that. I do not know how that worked, but $2 billion over 30 years, allocated improperly, I am not saying was the way to go. The approach we are being asked to support now, if we believe members of the NDP, is rather schizophrenic. They are saying “Don't do things the old way”, but when we try to change they say “There is not enough money in the envelope”.

We are saying that we should not create dependencies. We are trying to build capacities within these communities so that we have sustainable economies.

When I was in Halifax last summer I took a side trip to a call centre for the tourism industry. It was a tremendous experience. They get about 3,500 calls a day and they route people to various parts of Halifax. What they found was that because of this call centre people were staying longer and they were spending more money.

The tourism industry in my riding certainly has lessons that it can learn from the way the people of Halifax are applying that call centre and applying that money. There is reason for hope. I do not think the sky is falling mentality is going to serve the long term interests of the people.

I also want to talk a bit about the member criticizing Ottawa. In 1995 Ottawa had one of the largest displacements of employees in the history of Canada when the public service downsized. Ottawa, through a program called REDO, took a look at the fundamentals of the economy, what drove the economy and where it could make strategic investments. As a point of comparison, the REDO budget was about $1.8 million. One million, eight hundred thousand dollars later, the Ottawa economy has very sound fundamentals. It is not an economy that has dependencies. In fact it is booming.

If the $68 million for economic development is applied properly, if that money is used in an intelligent way, it can go a long way to laying down the foundations of how that economy should be operating so that it is sustainable; socially, environmentally and economically sustainable. There are also ongoing programs. This is not simply a one-time payoff. We have the various development agencies in Atlantic Canada.

Eastern Ontario, for some reason, is an area that is not covered by any of these. However, people have the ability to leverage money with the Enterprise Cape Breton Corporation or with the Atlantic Canada Opportunity Agency, so there are opportunities. There is the potential to put money and strategic investments where they belong.

Economic development is community development. Community development is not necessarily throwing money at the problem. We look to see what makes the economy work, where are the opportunities and invest intelligently. That is the best approach for Cape Breton.

[Michelle Dockrill, NDP, Bras D'Or, NS]

Mr. Speaker, I listened to my colleague across the way and I want to clarify for him the position of New Democrats. What we have been saying is that because the initiatives over the course of the last 30 years have been ridden with patronage they have not worked. Our position is very clear. We do not feel that the mistakes of this government and governments over the past 30 years should be buried and carried on the backs of the Cape Breton miners. That is our position.

My question to the member is very simple. He refers to the $68 million, which, if allotted properly, could prove to be successful. He uses words like leverage, which are the kinds of buzzwords we have heard for the last 10 years on the island of Cape Breton with respect to wages, things like ACOA, the ECBC and the CBCEDA.

My question is very specific. Given the fact that over the course of the last 10 years leverage with respect to ACOA money and ECBC money to the tune of $352 million has landed Cape Breton with the highest rate of unemployment, I would like the member to tell me, as well as those Cape Bretoners who are watching tonight, some real specifics in terms of how he sees a mere $68 million being allotted as being successful when this government was not able to accomplish it with $352 million?

[Joe Jordan, Liberal, Leeds—Grenville, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I can tell my hon. colleague that I am not even going to try because that is exactly the wrong approach. What she is starting with is an amount of money. Let us take an amount of money and then we will make the problem fit it.

The first thing we have to do with that $68 million is go back and look at how the fundamentals of that economy work. Then we will find out where the opportunities are. I think we would just be remaking the mistakes of the past if we were to somehow pull a figure out of the air and say that it would solve the problem.

The solution to the problems of the people of Cape Breton is not necessarily more money. I am not going to pretend that I know what that solution is. I am saying that I am going through it in my riding. The first things we have to look at are what are the opportunities, what are the strengths, what are the weaknesses and what are the threats. If we go through that and figure out how that economy works, then we will figure out where the strategic investments should be made.

As for the $2 billion mistake, as she calls it, I wish the government would come into my riding and make some mistakes like that.

[Peter Mancini, NDP, Sydney—Victoria, NS]

Mr. Speaker, I thank the member for his comments and observations.

There are some opportunities. I do not want him to get the idea that at any point in time we are not exploring them. One he will know about, which I have discussed with him, is the creation of a centre of excellence for environmental studies at the University College of Cape Breton for mediation of the tar ponds, which is the number one environmental disaster in this country. We look to the government for some leadership in that regard.

I mention that because he talked about Ottawa, the downsizing of the civil service and how they had to respond to that. It is interesting that we stand in the House of Commons with 301 members, all of whom stay somewhere in the city overnight. I contrast that with the day that I made a presentation to the government's economic panel. The Department of Human Resources Development was pulling out of Cape Breton civil servants who worked with unemployed Cape Bretoners, centralizing them on the mainland. I have voiced case after case. It has tried to pull coast guard employees from Cape Breton and centralize them on the mainland.

That is not the thrust of my question. He also talked about community economic development. We have some of the best minds in community economic development in this country, such as Father Greg MacLeod, Rankin MacSween and people involved in New Dawn Enterprises.

Since he has been so critical of the NDP, my question to him as a member of the Liberal government is, why was not a single member involved in community economic development appointed to the economic panel to look at economic development in Cape Breton? Rather, we had an ex-Liberal senator, another well known Liberal school teacher—I know because he is my wife's first cousin—the president of ACOA and the president of the ECBC who will funnel through the money. Why was there not a single person involved in community economic development appointed to that panel by his government?

[Joe Jordan, Liberal, Leeds—Grenville, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I will take the question under advisement, but I do want to touch on it. The member mentioned environmental issues, so he has my attention and my heart.

It is important to point out that Cape Breton is still part of Canada. Cape Breton can still participate in ongoing programs. I am presently putting together a package for the minister to try to get some community development money into eastern Ontario. Cape Breton can do the same. I do not think we want to give people the impression—

[An hon. member]

Answer the question.

[Joe Jordan, Liberal, Leeds—Grenville, ON]

I did answer the question. I said that I would take it under advisement.

I think it is important to remember that Cape Breton is still part of Canada, that Cape Breton still has access to all of the programs and services that other areas of the country do. To somehow say that this is some sort of kiss-off is doing a disservice to it and really is not serving the long term interests of the area.

[Wendy Lill, NDP, Dartmouth, NS]

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to speak today to Bill C-11, which would authorize the divestiture of the assets of the Cape Breton Development Corporation. This bill is very important to me and to some of my constituents, as well as to many of my colleagues.

One of the legacies of the federal policy toward Cape Breton and its citizens is that the young people leave. They go down the road to find work. They go to Montreal, Toronto or Alberta. Many of them come to Dartmouth because it is closer to their families. I have neighbours and friends who leave Dartmouth most weekends to make the four hour trek back across the Canso causeway.

The problems which face industrial Cape Breton are misunderstood by many. This bill shows that the group that is most ignorant of the history and reality of industrial Cape Breton is unfortunately the federal government.

I sometimes find it useful to look into how misconceptions are created. Many in Ottawa follow mantras. These mantras are not real. They are not based on fact, but they are followed with a religious fervour by both the government and the opposition. The latest Ottawa mantras include such best sellers as “Cuts are Always the Best Policy”, “Public Sector, Bad—Private Sector, Good”, “Corporations are Always Right”, and “Cape Breton is a Financial Money Pit”. It is interesting that not only has this last mantra become government policy, but the same chant has been taken up by the Reform Party. I guess members of the Reform Party have finally become Ottawa insiders as well, adopting the bureaucratic mantras just as the frontbench opposite.

I want to bring the fallacies of these last mantras to the attention of the House. Cape Breton has been producing coal for 300 years, long before Ottawa bureaucrats existed to criticize the enterprise. The coal which was produced in Cape Breton fired the steamers which helped to build the British empire. It was a critical component of industrial expansion in the early days of Canada.

The contribution which Cape Breton coal made to our war efforts in both wars cannot be underestimated. At the end of the second world war, 17,000 workers kept Cape Breton coal moving, but there was no doubt that, as with many other industries, after the war there would be big changes to coal production in Cape Breton, and there were. The mines declined substantially and by 1965 they were ready for a closure which would have thrown 6,500 miners out of work.

The government of the day, a more progressive government than the one which has brought in Bill C-11, understood that allowing the collapse of the coal industry was against the public interest for two reasons. The Pearson government understood that there was a viable economic need for coal production to continue in Cape Breton. It is almost eerie how the setting up of Devco seemed to have foretold the oil crisis of the seventies. Until Devco, power in Nova Scotia was produced by oil generating stations. If these stations had not been changed to coal fired stations in the late sixties, the impact of the OPEC crisis would have decimated the Nova Scotian economy.

I have heard both Liberals and Reformers whine on about the money pit of Cape Breton requiring this drastic legislation, but I never hear them talk about the billions of dollars saved by businesses and residents of Atlantic Canada because of cheap Cape Breton coal being used to create electricity.

Neither am I hearing any argument coming forth from either the Liberals or the Reformers which explains where the coal for Nova Scotia's power plant is supposed to come from. Does the Reform Party want us to import electricity from New England or to just buy the coal? Does the government hope the lights just go out, or does it care?

The Pearson government understood that the impact of an economic collapse in Cape Breton would threaten the whole economy of Atlantic Canada. It understood that there were two sides to an economic equation, both expenditure and revenue. It knew that cutting back on a single line of the budget does not necessarily save taxpayer money. It knew that if it had no one working then everyone goes on EI and then on welfare. These are increased expenditures created by cutting expenditures. It also knew that no jobs means no paycheques, no taxes, no small business and no GST, creating a downward spiral which has significant costs associated with it. Cutting expenditures in this case means cutting revenues as well.

I have not heard members opposite crediting Devco with making $6 billion. The bill could see 6,000 lost jobs in relatively small communities and 1,500 direct layoffs with up to three times that many lost due to the downward spinoffs. The impact is astounding. I firmly believe that economically destroying a community is what really creates a money pit, not working to preserve it. It not only fails to make economic sense, but it fails to make moral sense.

That is why there were provisions put into the act which created Devco to compel the government to ensure that all reasonable measures were put in place by corporations to reduce the possibility of economic hardship which can be expected from a closure.

There was an obligation set into law that the economic development of the area was part of the responsibility of the Devco Corporation. Devco was to plan not only for the production and sale of coal, but for local enterprises to take root and to have sustainable communities created for those who have given their blood, sweat, tears, their sons, their husbands and their environment to coal.

The people of Cape Breton were to have the opportunity to diversify their economic base. They were supposed to be allowed to try another way to contribute to the economic well-being of their communities. The government of Lester Pearson seemed to grasp the importance of federal assistance in this matter. There used to be an understanding that part of the public responsibility of the government was to help Canadians, not just guard corporate rights in an unfettered marketplace.

In question period today we heard again from the minister who keeps harping about corporate viability this and market value that. When will the government look into community viability? When will he recognize that we need consumers for a marketplace? When will he recognize that labour is required to create market value? These are important ideas and we need to work with the wonderful people of Cape Breton to establish alternatives which build their communities.

Atlantic Canada is seen by many as a one way street, a money pit. Nothing could be further from the truth. Atlantic Canadians work very hard and they like to work hard. They want to be productive, but government policy seems to have been designed to ensure the failure of our economy. It has reduced the availability of EI to workers who need it, which has disproportionately affected Atlantic Canada.

TAGS is a joke, again a joke of which Atlantic Canadians have borne the brunt. Now we see in Bill C-11 an increase on the attack toward Cape Breton. Let us have a meaningful dialogue with Atlantic Canadians on ways to fix our economic problems, on ways to help keep our children in the region, on ways to use government policy to help, not hurt Atlantic Canada.

I would also like to point out some other costs to closing Devco which have been ignored by this government and by the provincial Conservative government and which do not fit easily on to an accounting sheet. How do we cost the fear of cancer because of the environmental legacy of the coal and steel industry? Where on the government balance sheet would we put the anxiety that older workers feel seeing their years of service reduced to a buyout or the equity they have in their homes evaporating due to the economic effects of this legislation?

I heard the hon. member for Broadview—Greenwood ask my colleague who represents most of the affected miners how much money would be required to make her happy if there was a blank cheque available. I found it a very difficult question to hear put in this place. It showed ignorance of Cape Breton and demonstrated the mindlessness of the mantras put out by this government.

I would ask hon. members opposite where the supposed and probably modest savings which may be seen by killing the economy of Cape Breton will be placed. Do they believe that Cape Breton's savings should go to subsidize more corporate boxes at Maple Leafs games? Should savings made by destroying Glace Bay go to the NHL subsidies, or perhaps to big tax cuts for wealthy Canadians? This approach to government, punishing a poor region and giving more to the wealthy, is divisive and morally bankrupt.

We need to be working on ideas such as community economic development, alternative approaches to financing small business, tourism and jobs, and the urgent clean-up of the toxic legacy which existed in industrial Cape Breton.

My colleagues have talked about renewable energy industries. We have talked about national shipbuilding. There is no end of good ideas and people in Cape Breton who want to execute them. These are the kinds of ideas that we need government policy to support, not the short-sighted approach taken in Bill C-11.

In conclusion, I urge the government to scrap this punitive, mean-spirited piece of legislation and to go back to the basic principle of working with Cape Bretoners to develop a fair funding package which will give Cape Breton a future and not just a past. The responsibility of parliament in this matter is to assist the people of Cape Breton in developing new economic roots which will sink into their beautiful earth. We owe them that much and much more.

[Brent St. Denis, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of Natural Resources]

Mr. Speaker, I listened carefully to the hon. member's comments and, as with others, I appreciate the passion and concern with which she expressed her views.

I would like to focus on a particular point. I am not sure if she was here when I made a comment earlier in the afternoon that in my own northern Ontario riding, with a history of mining, forestry and the natural resources sector in general, we have suffered the ups and downs which are typical unfortunately of mining, forestry, et cetera.

It has become obvious to me that local solutions end up being oftentimes the best solutions when communities face a challenge. I do not think that ideas from the nation's capital can be any better than the ideas that come from local communities.

I have used the example of Elliot Lake in my riding which suffered significant job losses a few years ago, numbering in the neighbourhood of 4,000 jobs to be more precise. Without wanting to compare communities, because I do not think that is fair, I can say that the degree of local leadership shown in that community and in the neighbouring communities proved to me that the best ideas, the most substantive and substantial ideas, come from the people themselves.

I would ask the hon. member to comment on whether she agrees that the local communities, their leaders and individual Cape Bretoners are the best people to decide on how to use some financial resources to find the best future for their communities and their families. Instead of simply ploughing seemingly endless amounts of money into the coal industry, after 30 years might it not be best to invest in the people themselves and their own creative ideas? I would ask her to comment on the importance of local leadership when it comes to investing in the future.

[Wendy Lill, NDP, Dartmouth, NS]

Mr. Speaker, we are certainly in agreement that what is required is local solutions to a problem which has existed for a great length of time.

Going back to the point when the Lester B. Pearson's government looked at Cape Breton, it said it would continue to work with Cape Bretoners until it was successful in growing some new economic roots after coal mining was no longer an option.

Quite frankly everybody that has been speaking today has been saying that we want local solutions. There are local solutions. There are fabulous community development efforts and thinkers who are there right now willing to take the ball and run. However, they need a credible, decent amount of money and investment on the part of the government which committed long ago to this very effort.

We are simply asking for the government to keep its commitment to the people of Cape Breton which was started many years ago with Lester Pearson.

[Peter Mancini, NDP, Sydney—Victoria, NS]

Mr. Speaker, I thank my colleague for her comments. I think she made some interesting and excellent points.

She talked about the number of job losses and the spinoff job losses. It is important to bear in context that when she talks about 6,000 job losses they are in a population of 100,000 people in the industrialized area and the impact is enormous.

She talked about the impact on other governments. The reality is that the federal government is downloading those costs on to the province of Nova Scotia. Once unemployment runs out and once the people employed in those industries look to social assistance, it is the province of Nova Scotia which will have to foot the bill. That province is already reeling from a huge deficit.

She has made some interesting points. I also want to add that I think she has a unique perspective on Cape Breton and certainly on its culture. Members know she is a playwright, but one of her great plays is Glace Bay Miners' Museum in which she captured some of the cultural aspects of Cape Breton. I do not know whether she wants to share those thoughts with us on creating characters that were so determined and resourceful and I think accurately reflected the people of Cape Breton.

[Wendy Lill, NDP, Dartmouth, NS]

Mr. Speaker, that is a question that sort of throws me for a loop. It is fair to say that I have a rather poetic attachment to Cape Breton and to the people whom I see as being resourceful beyond the pale.

I guess the issue is the myth that people in Cape Breton do not want to work, want to collect government money, and the whole money pit thing. That is so absolutely far from the truth that there is no one I have ever seen who wants to work harder and longer and live harder and longer than the people of Cape Breton. They want to do it with integrity, with enormous chutzpah, with humour and with black humour. I think the culture of Cape Breton gives the country a colour that we would be sorely lacking without.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Mr. Speaker, it is with great honour that I rise as the NDP natural resources critic to speak to Bill C-11, an act to authorize the divestiture of the assets of and to dissolve the Cape Breton Development Corporation.

Sadly we have here another example of the Liberal government abandoning the people of the Atlantic. About a year ago Premier Brian Tobin of Newfoundland said that the Atlantic did not abandon the Liberals, that the Liberals abandoned the Atlantic.

Not too long ago a person I am not shy to say is not my best friend, the premier of New Brunswick, Frank McKenna, said that the federal government was forgetting the Atlantic provinces and was not investing in the Atlantic provinces for economic development. He only realized 10 years later, now that he is not in, what his Liberal colleagues were doing. They took all the money they could and probably gave it to their friends. The reason the economic development of the Atlantic provinces never happened was that the Liberals gave too much money to their friends.

Devco was created by the federal government in 1967 to rescue the coal industry in Cape Breton. Now, 33 years later, the government is turning its back on the hard-working men and women of Cape Breton and creating great devastation for both the economy and the community of Cape Breton.

When I hear speakers today in the House of Commons it sounds as though the government has paid welfare for 33 years. Where is the respect for those miners who went underground and worked day and night? When people work in a mine they are dirtier than we are when we leave the House of Commons.

[Myron Thompson, Reform, Wild Rose, AB]

I don't think so. Did you work underground?

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

I worked underground for 15 years. Maybe my friend from the Reform Party thinks a person getting out of a mine is not dirtier at night than a person getting out of the House of Commons, but I worked with miners underground and I know what it is all about.

I feel that the House of Commons is lacking respect for the people of the Atlantic provinces and the miners who work underground. It is a shame. It is also a shame to hear the speakers get up in the House of Commons and talk they way they do about our miners, the people who furnish coal to this country and other countries around us. We should not be surprised that the Liberal government is backing out of its responsibilities. It is nothing new.

What I find absolutely appalling is the government's determination to take away the little protection that was given to employees in the original Devco act. The original act of 1967 stipulates that the Liberal government cannot get out of its responsibility to Devco until it has fulfilled sections 17 and 18. Why is the government now proposing an amendment that will allow it to abdicate its responsibility under sections 17 and 18? This proposal shows how little respect the government has for Devco employees.

Some members might ask why sections 17 and 18 are so important. Let me take the time to read them out so that we know exactly what we are talking about.

On page 1, subsection 17(1) of the original act states:

—the plan shall take into account progress in providing employment outside the coal producing industry and in broadening the base of the economy of Cape Breton Island.

Let me pick up under subsection 17(4) of the original act which states:

Before closing or substantially reducing the production of coal...the Corporation shall ensure that

(b) all reasonable measures have been adopted by the Corporation, either alone or in conjunction with the Government of Canada or of Nova Scotia or any agency of either of those governments, to reduce as far as possible any unemployment or economic hardship that can be expected to result from the closing or reduction in production.

Now the act is very clear. It states that Devco shall ensure that all reasonable measures have been adopted to reduce unemployment or economic hardship. This absolutely does not make sense. The government is defending what it did in the fishery industry. It dropped the fishermen just like that. It was not enough that we got caught in this country and around the world with new technology that took away jobs, the government cut employment insurance so that 800,000 people no longer qualify for EI, in spite of all the fishery and natural resources we have in our country. That is where the pain is.

When my friend across the floor talks about northern Ontario and the industry in Elliot Lake, what industry is he talking about? People went there to retire. That is not an industry. It is a place of peace not a place of work. It is a shame to get up in the House of Commons and talk like this.

Does anyone wonder why there are no Liberals in Nova Scotia? They lost their seats because they did not know how to deal with Canadians when they had a problem. They would drop them just like this because that is how the Liberals do it. Shame on the Liberals and the Liberal government. Shame on the Liberal government for the way it is dealing with the mining industry in Cape Breton today. Shame on the Liberal government for its actions on the fishery in the Atlantic provinces. Shame on the Liberal government for its actions on the fishery in B.C. Shame on the Liberal government for its actions on the agricultural issue and the farmers in Saskatchewan and Manitoba. Shame on the Liberal government. The government's record is not good.

How can the government back down from the original Devco commitment? The minister has said that his proposed amendment will not affect the government's commitment to sections 17 and 18. If that is the case, why remove them? Why remove them if it does not affect these sections?

I always said when I negotiated collective agreements that we take something away from the agreement because it bothers us. If it does not bother us, then we leave it alone. Why is the government removing it here? It is because it bothers the government. It is because the government wanted to lock up Cape Breton.

I know how the people of Cape Breton feel. The people of Acadie—Bathurst feel the same way. Members know what happened to Doug Young. He was thrown out the door because of the way he treated the people of Acadie—Bathurst. What happens in Nova Scotia? The government appoints Bernie Boudreau to the Senate. Shame on the Liberal government. The government has always treated the Atlantic provinces this way.

I have said all along that the government wants the workers from the Atlantic provinces to go across the country and plug the holes where qualified workers are needed to do the job. It happens all the time.

I work. I come from a family of 11. In the fall one of my brothers had to leave at the age of 58 years. The government thinks it is funny when it splits families. In March one of my brothers at the age of 52 had to leave and go to work in northern Ontario in order to get a job. This hurt the whole family.

My friend across the way talked about northern Ontario and how pitiful it is. My friend can visit the Atlantic provinces. I invited the former minister of human resources many times to visit the Atlantic provinces. He refused to go. I hope the new minister of human resources will get out of Ottawa and all the other nice places she can travel to and go to see the people and families who are hurting.

The Liberals say that too much is being given to the Atlantic provinces. We have to realize what is given to the Atlantic provinces. Personally I do not think anything has been given. The government has taken away from the Atlantic provinces all of our resources, all of our wood and all our fish. There has been mismanagement of our fisheries by DFO. There has been mismanagement of our forests.

The federal government has given some provinces loans. The federal government says when a tree is cut down another should be planted in its place. We did not have that for years. Where was the government when we lost our resources? This is not the only problem.

[The Deputy Speaker]

Order, please. I regret to interrupt the hon. member, but I can advise him that when the bill is next before the House, he will have 10 minutes remaining in the time for his remarks.

It being 6.38 p.m., this House stands adjourned until tomorrow at 10 a.m. pursuant to Standing Order 24(1).

(The House adjourned at 6.38 p.m.)