Debates of Nov. 3rd, 1999

Agriculture

[Deborah Grey, Reform, Edmonton North, AB]

Mr. Speaker, funny darn thing. He was a Reformer and he is proud of our policies.

The Prime Minister may think that food happens to grow at the supermarket, but we know that real families are behind all that real food production.

Farm families are in deep trouble and the minister knows it. They need help and what do they get? They get the Prime Minister telling them things really are not as bad as they seem, and the fact that they are losing their farms is just part of a positive trend that is sweeping the prairies and it feels so good.

When will the Prime Minister go out there and tell these people face to face that it is just happy days are here again?

[Lyle Vanclief, Liberal, Minister of Agriculture and Agri-Food]

Mr. Speaker, I note that the hon. member said the individual was a Reformer. I can understand why. Maybe the farmer she spoke to had read the Star Phoenix on August 16 of this year in which the hon. member who just spoke said that more subsidies for Canadian farmers are not the answer.

Economic Statement By Minister Of Finance

[Gilles Duceppe, Bloc, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

Mr. Speaker, at first blush, the Minister of Finance seems to be sitting very pretty.

He is proposing tax cuts and new programs, but he is forgetting the gaping hole in this lovely scenario, the $33 billion he is not giving back to those who are providing direct services to the public, i.e. the provinces.

When will the minister plug this hole and give back to the provinces the money he cut?

[Paul Martin, Liberal, Minister of Finance]

Mr. Speaker, first of all, although there were cuts in transfers very early on, these cuts were not as extensive as those inflicted by the provinces on municipalities, as was the case in Quebec, for instance.

Second, in last year's budget, we increased the health transfer by $11.5 billion over five years. We also increased equalization payments, and Quebec alone received an additional $1.4 billion in such payments.

[Gilles Duceppe, Bloc, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

Mr. Speaker, these cuts amounted to $932 million in cash transfers. That is much more than what the municipalities were cut, as the Minister of Finance is well aware. The Minister of Finance is not naive. He can do the math; what matters is what he does with the money once he has it.

The truth is that cash transfers have decreased. The federal government has more money than responsibilities.

How can the minister stand by while those providing direct health, education, and social services to the public do not have the funds needed to do the job, and those with no responsibility for these sectors build up surpluses? That is the problem.

[Paul Martin, Liberal, Minister of Finance]

Once again, Mr. Speaker, the member is talking about health, but we increased health transfers by $11.5 billion last year.

As for the universities, research and development, we established the Canadian Foundation for Innovation, 33% of the funds from which will go to Quebec.

In the throne speech, we announced new research chairs, which all universities were quick to approve. It is very clear that the federal government is assuming its responsibilities and we will continue to do so.

[Michel Gauthier, Bloc, Roberval, QC]

Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Finance of Canada, since being appointed, has taken $32 billion away from the provinces. That is fact. It is undeniable.

In yesterday's economic statement, the Minister of Finance talked about a lot of things, but said nothing specific about indexing the tax tables.

Can the minister not make a commitment now to tell taxpayers what they want to hear, that he will be indexing their tax tables?

[Paul Martin, Liberal, Minister of Finance]

Mr. Speaker, we are going to do a lot more than that. We are going to look at what we have already done. Next year, the government will have cut personal income tax and compensated for indexing at least four or five times.

[Michel Gauthier, Bloc, Roberval, QC]

Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Finance is swimming in billions in surplus. Could he explain how, on matters not under his jurisdiction, matters of provincial jurisdiction, such as childhood, the family and education, he took it upon himself to make announcements, but was unable to be more specific about tax cuts?

On the subject of the announcement he has just made and the transfers to the provinces, does the minister not realize that he should have been specific on these two points and that it is his duty to tell the public today just what he is going to do?

[Paul Martin, Liberal, Minister of Finance]

Mr. Speaker, I indicated our intention very clearly yesterday not only to cut taxes, but to lower taxes for the middle class and those most disadvantaged.

So, I put the question to the hon. member. Why did the Bloc Quebecois, in its political statement on taxation, refuse to lower taxes for the most disadvantaged, for all those earning less than $30,000?

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh.

[The Speaker]

Order, please. The hon. leader of the New Democratic Party.

Child Poverty

[Alexa McDonough, NDP, Halifax, NS]

Mr. Speaker, tax cuts versus new investments. That is a debate about how to deliver help. But the question is not about how; it is about who, as in who most needs help. On that question the government is totally confused.

Why has the number of children living in poverty in this country increased each and every year since the Prime Minister came to office?

[Paul Martin, Liberal, Minister of Finance]

Mr. Speaker, the hon. member's facts are quite wrong. If one looks at the last published numbers, those for between 1996 and 1997, the number of children living in poor families has actually declined from 21.1% to 19.8%.

[Alexa McDonough, NDP, Halifax, NS]

Mr. Speaker, we are talking about lives. When the government cares and it wants results, it sets targets. The government set targets for deficit reduction. Now it is setting targets for decreases in taxes for high income earners.

Why are there no targets for family farms in crisis? Why are there no targets to rebuild health care? Why are there no targets to eliminate child poverty to ensure that all our children get the best possible start in life? Is it not really because the government just does not care?

[Paul Martin, Liberal, Minister of Finance]

Mr. Speaker, anybody who has watched what this government has said and done over the course of the last five years will understand the very deep feeling of concern that we have for families living in poverty, for farm families in this country, and to improve the lot of the ordinary Canadian.

That is why we put another $2 billion in the national child tax benefit. That is why we have increased CAPC. That is why we increased the prenatal nutrition program. That is why we have increased head start. The fact is that this government has acted, and it has acted consistently.

Taxation

[Scott Brison, Progressive Conservative, Kings—Hants, NS]

Mr. Speaker, the Prime Minister has told Canadians that they should move to another country if they want real tax relief.

Does the finance minister share the views of the Prime Minister that if Canadians want real tax relief they should leave Canada?

[Paul Martin, Liberal, Minister of Finance]

Mr. Speaker, that is not what the Prime Minister said.

The Prime Minister said that it is the responsibility of government, while setting an economic climate so that the private sector can create jobs, to take care of those who cannot help themselves. It is the responsibility of government to alleviate the plight of children in poverty. It is the responsibility of government to provide accessibility to universities. It is the responsibility of government to take care of Canadians so that they too have an equal opportunity to succeed.

[Scott Brison, Progressive Conservative, Kings—Hants, NS]

Mr. Speaker, what we have not heard is the Prime Minister say that it is the responsibility of government to reduce taxes.

The finance minister's economic statement stated that tax reduction was a priority, not an afterthought. Yet in the Prime Minister's recent Speech from the Throne there was only half a page devoted to tax reduction and 24 pages devoted to $32 billion worth of new spending.

The Prime Minister wrote the throne speech. The finance minister wrote the economic statement. The question Canadians are waiting to be answered is who will be writing the budget. Will it be the free spending, 1970s style Prime Minister, or will it be the wannabe, tax cutting finance minister?

[Paul Martin, Liberal, Minister of Finance]

Mr. Speaker, whether it be the throne speech, whether it be the economic update yesterday or whether it be the budget, it will be the government that will respond and the government will speak with one voice.

[Monte Solberg, Reform, Medicine Hat, AB]

Mr. Speaker, at the end of the finance minister's live show yesterday in London, we were left with two hard facts. The first is that on January 1 taxes will go up. The second is that the only detailed plan the government has is for $47 billion in new spending.

My question is for the finance minister. Yesterday in London why is it that we had lights and we had cameras but we had no action on tax relief?

[Paul Martin, Liberal, Minister of Finance]

Mr. Speaker, the lights are out across the opposition benches.

Let me simply explain that yesterday was a fiscal update. The taxes and the details of tax reduction are done in budget. I would certainly ask the hon. member to be part of the finance committee and to consult with Canadians. I look forward to the recommendations of the finance committee and I look forward to the budget in February-March.

[Monte Solberg, Reform, Medicine Hat, AB]

Mr. Speaker, fine words but they will not pass the paste up test for most Canadians.

We are seeing a 15 cent cut in EI premiums but a 40 cent hike in CPP premiums on January 1, a big tax hike.

Canadians want some tax relief right now. Their taxes are still going up. If the minister has supposedly cut taxes already, like he claimed yesterday, why is it that Canadians are not seeing it on their paycheques?

[Paul Martin, Liberal, Minister of Finance]

First, Mr. Speaker, of course they are. They have seen a 3% reduction toward the elimination of the surtax. They have seen a $675 increase in the threshold below which Canadians do not pay any taxes. We now have a situation where a family of two earning $30,000 pays absolutely no federal taxes. Where a family is earning $50,000, there is 15% decrease in taxes.

Those happen to be the facts. What we have also said is that in each and every budget, beginning with the next one, we will continue on that path.

Economic Statement By Minister Of Finance

[Paul Crête, Bloc, Kamouraska—Rivière-Du-Loup—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Mr. Speaker, in 1993 one million children in Canada were living in poverty. This year, the figure is over 1.5 million. Yesterday, the Minister of Finance bemoaned their situation when presenting his economic statement.

Can the minister tells us whether this terrible increase in the number of poor children in Canada is the result of Canada's good economic performance or of the accomplishments of the Minister of Finance since 1993?