Debates of Feb. 15th, 1999

Division No. 317

[Svend Robinson, NDP, Burnaby—Douglas, BC]

Mr. Speaker, in late October last year the Minister of Foreign Affairs met with Timorese leader and Nobel prize winner José Ramos-Horta.

Mr. Ramos-Horta was in Canada to urge the Government of Canada to support the people of East Timor, in particular to support their right to self-determination and to an internationally supervised referendum on their future. On that day I asked the Minister of Foreign Affairs what the position of the Government of Canada was with respect to support for East Timor's right to self-determination.

Unfortunately the Minister of Foreign Affairs did not come out in support of the right to self-determination. In fact, there have been 10 votes at the United Nations since the brutal invasion by Indonesia of East Timor and the annexation in 1975 and on not one of those votes has Canada supported the people of East Timor and their fundamental right to self-determination.

Earlier today in this House we spoke about the genocide in Armenia from 1915 to 1923. There has been genocide in East Timor as well. Since 1975 over 200,000 people, over one-third of the population, have lost their lives in the brutal repression and genocide that followed the occupation.

The East Timorese people have carried out a valiant fight for independence. We know that in 1991 hundreds of innocent marchers were massacred at a demonstration in Dili. The documentation of human rights abuses by Amnesty International, the East Timor Human Rights Centre and the UN human rights commission is extensive.

Just in the last few months Yayasan Hak, a very reliable East Timorese NGO, has monitored complaints filed by victims of extrajudicial executions, detentions, torture and forced disappearances. Over 7,000 refugees have been forced to leave their homes just in the last few months as a result of the terror and intimidation taking place there.

For too long the Canadian government has turned a blind eye to these abuses and instead placed the focus on establishing a cosy trade relationship with Suharto. We saw that in spades at the APEC leaders summit in Vancouver in 1997.

The fall of General Suharto last May provided some hope but clearly it is essential that the international community provide support for the people of East Timor at this time. I ask the Government of Canada today, I call on the Government of Canada to join in the growing call for a United Nations monitored peacekeeping force to oversee a referendum for self-determination. I call on our government to provide support for a transitional administration to help the territory toward independence.

The Minister of Foreign Affairs spoke just last week at the security council about the importance of his human security agenda and the importance of protecting civilians in armed conflict. What better place to apply those principles than in East Timor.

I call as well on the United Nations to dispatch a monitoring force to East Timor as soon as possible to oversee the disarming and disbanding of the paramilitaries, paramilitaries that are being actively armed and supported by the Indonesian army. We want to see a reduction in occupying troops. We want to see the protection of the population against further human rights abuses.

I urge the secretary of state, who I see in the House today, to call for a permanent United Nations office in East Timor to support and co-ordinate these very important activities. The time has come for Canada to play a positive role and to send a delegation to monitor the elections in East Timor and Indonesia. The people of East Timor have suffered long enough. Canada has been silent long enough. The time for justice is now.

[Raymond Chan, Liberal, Secretary of State (Asia-Pacific)]

Mr. Speaker, it is not true that Canada has not paid attention to the human rights issue in East Timor. We have continuously monitored the situation and raised those concerns with the Indonesian government. At the end of last year I paid a special visit to Indonesia on human rights issues.

Canada welcomes and is encouraged by indications that the negotiations in New York on the future of East Timor included discussions of ways of directly consulting the East Timorese people. We maintain that the East Timorese should have a say in determining their future. Now that East Timorese leader Xanana Gusmao has been moved from prison to house arrest, this will facilitate the consultation process with the East Timorese.

In October last year I personally visited Xanana Gusmao in prison. He was very appreciative of Canada's efforts in East Timor.

The Government of Canada is engaged in discussions with a number of countries regarding East Timor's future at this very pivotal time. These countries include the main parties to discussions at the United Nations. In this context, Canada is closely examining its position with a view to providing continuous support to the people of East Timor.

Canada is the third largest aid donor in East Timor and provides about $1.1 million annually through NGOs. Canada has also regularly contributed to the All Inclusive Intra-East Timorese Dialogue. Canada's ambassador to Indonesia visited East Timor in December, one aim of his visit being to explore options for further Canadian assistance in order to build indigenous capacity and further peace in East Timor.

[Libby Davies, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Mr. Speaker, back in December I asked the government how it could in good conscience defend its record on poverty.

Under the Liberal government homelessness is now a national disaster. Poverty is a new growth industry as a result of Liberal policy.

The 1989 unanimous House of Commons resolution to eliminate child poverty is a mere echo as child poverty has now increased by approximately 50%. The attack on the unemployed under the dreadful unemployment insurance program is a national disgrace. It is not just me who is saying this. Even the United Nations has condemned Canada for lack of compliance with the UN covenant on social, economic and cultural rights.

I recently completed a cross-Canada tour on homelessness. I saw for myself the awful circumstances that growing numbers of Canadians live in as a result of the federal government's abandonment of social housing in this country.

I want to ask the government: If the Liberals are genuine about eliminating poverty, why is the government not indexing the child tax benefit? Why is the government not ensuring that the child tax benefit goes to the poorest of the poor, the families on welfare? Why has this government ensured that income assistance is being cut across the country so that more and more people are living below the poverty line? If the government is genuine about eliminating poverty, why are the Liberals not ensuring that they return the UI program to its rightful owners, the unemployed workers of Canada?

If the Liberal government is genuinely concerned about poverty, why have we not seen a commitment to build social housing in this country, something that has not happened since 1993? Why have we not seen a commitment to live up to the UN covenant on social, economic and cultural rights?

Finally, why does the government not heed its own report from the finance minister? As an opposition MP in 1990 he said “The lack of affordable housing contributes to and accelerates the cycle of poverty which is reprehensible in a society as rich as ours”. That was the now finance minister speaking.

We want to know what is the commitment of this government to alleviate poverty in Canada?

[Bonnie Brown, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of Human Resources Development]

Mr. Speaker, I applaud the member's dedication to and illustration of poverty in this country. Certainly many members on this side of the House share that concern.

However, I do not think it is helpful to anyone in this House to always target and blame the actions of this government. Nowhere in her remarks did I hear any recognition of some of the other social phenomena which exist in the 90s and indeed sometimes interact to exacerbate poverty.

For example, the technological revolution of which we are in the middle is putting us in a period of transition, a transition between the industrial age and the information age. Historically, social revolutions of this sort actually impede some people from moving forward. Some people adjust quickly and prosper. We are finding that today with the information workers who are training themselves upwards and are getting the good jobs with the high salaries.

Often in these periods other people find it difficult to adjust. It might be because of where they live or because of the level of their education. They fall behind. This is simply part of the period of history we are in.

The member often talks about the change to our EI system and calls it a national disgrace. Nowhere in her remarks have I heard an analysis of the new labour market and understanding that the work people do is changing. All I hear is a nostalgic wishful thinking to go backward in time and bring back a system that was suitable for the 70s, not for the 90s.

This government is attempting to eliminate poverty. We are moving forward step by step as we have the dollars to afford the actions necessary.

[Myron Thompson, Reform, Wild Rose, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to have the opportunity to clarify the exchange between the minister of Indian affairs and myself during question period on October 28, 1998.

I want to preface my remarks by stating that I have been bombarded by aboriginal people begging for forensic audits on their reserves since that exchange in October. Since that time I have realized that the confusion on this matter clearly lies in Ottawa with the department of Indian affairs which is making up the rules as it goes along.

By that I mean the department first stated that it refused to conduct investigations unless it is requested by the band leadership. I guarantee that no leadership is going to ask to have themselves investigated. Then we heard in the department's own words that forensic audits are extremely expensive and time consuming and a request from a few upset band members would not be enough to warrant one.

I have a message for the minister. It is not just a few band members, it is hundreds, probably thousands. I was just informed last Thursday that a list of 5,500 names from the Yukon to southern Alberta has been collected all asking for help with forensic audits. These people are living in buses, sitting on apple crates, freezing and starving in tarpaper shacks. They are not being frivolous when they ask for forensic audits.

The minister talks of accountability, transparency and working in partnership. She says she is reviewing the management practices of every first nation and that she is allowing the chief to set the minimum standards for accountability practices. Can she not see that this is the problem? The grassroots people say that most chiefs and councils do not have the first clue on how to set standards of accountability.

The minister claims that those who report financial mismanagement will lead to pitting members of the community against one another. This is simply not true. This will bring people together and put them all on a level playing field.

The largest problem today is the fact that the department has repeatedly told the grassroots people that when they have documented proof of financial mismanagement by chief and council to report it to the RCMP. However, in a letter from the commissioner of the RCMP, Phil Murray, he very clearly contradicts this statement. He says that in cases of misappropriation of band funds and/or assets, DIAND will initially review the allegations. Should the department believe an investigation is warranted, it will refer the case to the RCMP for investigation.

There are a few people on one reserve who managed to get hold of some documents. They did those things very secretively. I would not disclose who they were because they would be in real trouble with their chief and council. The documents were a list of social payments made to members of a band every month for two to three years.

I looked at these documents and noticed that a few hundred dollars was being paid to the odd member from the band from time to time. Then every month one or two names would get a cheque for $8,000, or $9,000, or $4,000. When I looked at that I wondered why those people would be getting so much compared to what the rest of them were on the lists. Then they produced death certificates. One of the people who were getting these cheques had been dead for 13 years. Not being an expert, I thought it looked a little suspicious that a dead person would be receiving that much money every month.

The band members and I went to the RCMP. We showed them the documents and the RCMP agreed that there was probably something serious here. The RCMP in turn sent it to commercial crimes in Edmonton which looked at it and notified me a few days later that there was insufficient evidence to carry on an investigation. In other words the department must not have agreed to it and told the RCMP to back off.

This whole system needs cleaning up. I would encourage the member across the way who is going to respond to me that he get out and check with his Winnipeg Coalition for Accountability Group. Let them explain the problems to him.

[David Iftody, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development]

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to respond to the hon. member for Wild Rose on behalf of the Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development concerning the forensic audits.

For too long the solution has been to have the federal government come to the rescue and fix all the problems that emerge in and around the reserve communities. We tried this approach and we know that having evaluated it in the past 50 years it has not worked. The Royal Commission on Aboriginal Peoples sent us a message to change. Today our approach is to work in partnership with first nations to build a plan that will create real change on behalf of aboriginal people.

First nations governments are expected to conduct their affairs in accordance with the principles common to all governments in Canada, namely, transparency, disclosure and redress. These principles are intended to ensure accountability of first nation leaders to their communities. To help build effective administration for this responsibility, all first nations are required to complete an evaluation of their current accountability and management practices. Where weaknesses are identified, first nations develop a plan to strengthen them. First nations are taking the initiative to build the necessary support for this activity.

First nations governments and the Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development work together. When problems do occur, and they do occur, a remedial management plan is put into place to help restore the first nation's financial health. This plan could include placing the first nation under a co-management plan or even third party management.

Where there is evidence of wrongdoing, it should be taken to the police as the member has alluded to. In this case of course they found there was no wrongdoing. In a first nations community, as in other communities, the police have the authority and responsibility to investigate allegations of wrongdoing.

Accountability is fundamental to self-government. We continue to partner with first nations private sector organizations and governments and we will continue to work constructively with all first nations to ensure accountability.

[The Deputy Speaker]

The motion to adjourn the House is now deemed to have been adopted. Accordingly, this House stands adjourned until tomorrow at 10 a.m., pursuant to Standing Order 24(1).

(The House adjourned at 7.15 p.m.)