Debates of Feb. 4th, 1999

National Defence

[Art Eggleton, Liberal, Minister of National Defence]

Mr. Speaker, that is totally untrue. The safety of our troops is of utmost importance to us.

We made sure the vaccine which was obtained in the United States was tested, supplementary tested, as did the Americans. They got their vaccine from the same source.

We made sure doctors in the Canadian military approved it. We made sure that Health Canada was very much in the picture and approved it as well. We gave that vaccine only after it had been properly tested and we ensured it was safe and effective.

[Deborah Grey, Reform, Edmonton North, AB]

Mr. Speaker, that is a really nice try but I just do not think the minister's answer is true for these reasons. He just said that it was tested and retested—

[The Speaker]

Please be very judicious in the way you phrase your question, especially with the word true.

[Deborah Grey, Reform, Edmonton North, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Yesterday in the House the minister said they are fully tested, it is our medical people, the doctors, who determine that it is safe to give them when they are given.

He just said they were tested and retested but not by Canadian doctors. In the scrum yesterday afternoon he said exactly the opposite to what he said in here yesterday.

Why did he say that our doctors had tested the vaccine when he knew that was not the case?

[Art Eggleton, Liberal, Minister of National Defence]

Mr. Speaker, I said our doctors had approved the use of the vaccine and they have.

I have discussed this matter with them. They have thoroughly gone over this matter with the testing company, an independent testing firm hired by the United States department of defence. We also had that same company do very thorough testing. Our doctors consulted with it. Health Canada has been part of this picture. They have all been consulted. They all approved the vaccine.

[Deborah Grey, Reform, Edmonton North, AB]

Mr. Speaker, that same company and manufacturer is in fact being sued by the American FDA.

The minister stood in the House in April and said he had taken the vaccine himself, the retested version.

Health Canada could have approved it but it did not have its tests done on it and it should not have approved anything it did not test itself, and the minister has admitted this right now.

The minister knew the vaccines were stale. He knew that the labels had been tampered with. He knew that they had not been independently tested and he knew that the company was in trouble with the FDA.

Why did he order our troops to be human guinea pigs for this vaccine?

[Art Eggleton, Liberal, Minister of National Defence]

Mr. Speaker, it was not stale. The labels were not changed. It was all tested. It was all found to be safe. I visited the HMCS Toronto in Kuwait harbour. I took the vaccine and I have never felt better.

[Chuck Strahl, Reform, Fraser Valley, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I wish we could be so confident for our Canadian troops.

Health Canada may have approved this but Health Canada certainly never tested it. Today we learned that General Kinsman, commander of the air force, said he would never have approved administering this vaccine if he had known that it had already been stale dated and that the stuff was out of date.

What on earth was the minister thinking when he asked that a mouldy anthrax vaccine be given to Canadian troops?

[Art Eggleton, Liberal, Minister of National Defence]

Mr. Speaker, the only thing mouldy is the thinking in the Reform Party.

The medical profession in the Canadian military has looked at this closely. The United States has also looked at it. The same vaccine has been given to many more Americans in their military forces.

People have been able to take it with very few problems at all and certainly no problems relevant to the kind of issues the Reform Party is trying scaremonger about.

[Chuck Strahl, Reform, Fraser Valley, BC]

Mr. Speaker, the minister said this vaccine has been tested and retested. He knows full well that not a single Canadian doctor tested one vial of vaccine. He knows that to be true and yet tells the House, the Canadian people and our Canadian soldiers rest easy, take your chances.

The air force general has said he would never have asked for that to be administered. This minister somehow seems to think it is okay.

What I would like to know is does he just make up these stories as he goes along or does he just not care that this vaccine is harmful? Has he even asked for a test to see if this vaccine is harmful to our Canadian soldiers?

[Art Eggleton, Liberal, Minister of National Defence]

Mr. Speaker, in reference to the chief of the air staff, none of us would ever recommend anything that was not safe and not effective. The vaccine was tested very thoroughly at the laboratory by an independent company. It was not tested in Canada. We do not make the vaccine in Canada and it is not licensed in Canada. It was tested at the laboratory, the best place for it to be done.

Our medical doctors are fully satisfied that this vaccine is safe.

Human Resources Development Canada

[Gilles Duceppe, Bloc, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

Mr. Speaker, yesterday, the Minister of Human Resources Development made reference to fraud investigation in order to defend the indefensible and justify the quotas on cuts. How can the minister hide behind the investigation of fraud, when the quotas for cuts are $612 million, while his Web site indicates that frauds and penalties total under $200 million?

Why are the cuts three times the figure for fraud?

[Pierre Pettigrew, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development]

Mr. Speaker, my department is attempting to ensure that the program is administered fairly for all recipients. This is our duty to all those who trust us with their funds. It is perfectly normal practice from an administrative point of view to administer the funds entrusted to us in an equitable manner.

When we are told that there are quotas, that people's jobs depend on them, I can tell you that no individual job is linked to such practices, that in a department the size of Human Resources Development where employees are covered by collective agreements, if tasks were reassigned because there was less work in a given area, workers would be given other duties within the department.

[Gilles Duceppe, Bloc, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

Mr. Speaker, what a lot of words just to cover up reality.

The bottom line is that public servants have been told “If you do not cut off enough people, if you do not cut three times more than the figure for fraud, you are going to lose your job”. That is what has been said, and this makes the public servants victims as well because, instead of being there to serve the unemployed, they are being made to persecute them.

Does this minister-author realize this, this man who bemoans the fate of the excluded, who champions their cause, but who is without a heart?

[Pierre Pettigrew, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development]

Mr. Speaker, I have enough heart to ensure that people, including those who contribute to the fund, are protected against abuse, against fraud, against the overpayments which occasionally occur because of administrative error, so that the money will go to those who need it.

But I would point out to the head of the Ottawa branch of the Parti Quebecois that he ought to have a look at what is happening at the social services department in Quebec, which had to recover $100 million, and did recover $112 million, in 1996-97. They have the same kind of administrative practices over there.

So let him look at what is being done in his own head office, as far as administrative practices are concerned, which—

[The Speaker]

The hon. member for Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup—Témiscouata—Les Basques.

[Paul Crête, Bloc, Kamouraska—Rivière-Du-Loup—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Mr. Speaker, yesterday, here in Ottawa, the Minister of Human Resources Development accused us of defending cheaters. However, considering that a knife is put to the throats of the department's employees to force them to reach their quotas, it is obvious that all EI beneficiaries are now deemed to be potential cheaters by the government.

The Prime Minister once said that out of work Canadians were beer drinkers. Is the Minister of Human Resources Development now telling us that, in his opinion, they are also cheaters?

[Pierre Pettigrew, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development]

Mr. Speaker, I never insinuated that the unemployed were cheaters, quite the contrary.

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh.

[Pierre Pettigrew, Liberal, Papineau—Saint-Denis, QC]

I want the employment insurance fund and program to help the unemployed who do need help. We are proud to see that the program will be there for them for a long time to come.

What I said is that members opposite are defending people who abused the system. I did not say that the unemployed were abusing it: I said that we need to identify those who abuse the system, so as to respect the integrity of the true—

[The Speaker]

The hon. member for Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup—Témiscouata—Les Basques.

[Paul Crête, Bloc, Kamouraska—Rivière-Du-Loup—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Mr. Speaker, given his quotas, his systematic harassment of the jobless and his threats to fire those employees who do not make enough cuts, does the Minister of Human Resources Development not realize that he has transformed a social program designed to help laid-off workers into a trap for those who contribute to the program and who need that program?

[Pierre Pettigrew, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development]

Mr. Speaker, let me clarify one thing: I do not want any harassment of the unemployed. I do not want any harassment to take place.

All employees of the Department of Human Resources Development are covered by collective agreements and, should we decide that it is necessary to reorganize the work within the department, all 150 employees in question would be reassigned to other duties.

They do not have knives at their throats. We are not threatening to fire them. We are simply saying that they could be reassigned to other positions, where the workload is heavier. This is my message.

Water Exports

[Bill Blaikie, NDP, Winnipeg—Transcona, MB]

Mr. Speaker, my question arises out of the concern many Canadians have about the action brought pursuant to article 11 of NAFTA with respect to water exports. My question is for the Minister of Foreign Affairs.

Will the government immediately declare a Canada-wide moratorium on the export of bulk freshwater shipments and interbasin transfers? Will the government be bringing in legislation to permanently ban bulk freshwater exports and interbasin transfers in order to assert Canada's sovereign right to protect, preserve and conserve our freshwater resources for future generations?

[Lloyd Axworthy, Liberal, Minister of Foreign Affairs]

Mr. Speaker, there is no question that we are deeply engaged in a process to ensure Canadian water resources are protected. Over the past year my colleague, the Minister of the Environment, has engaged in a number of discussions with the provinces. We have been in discussion with U.S. authorities on border water issues. Once we are able to bring those two separate tracks together we will come up with a common policy which I am sure the hon. member will support.