Reform members want to deny the fact that at committee important work is done. I know that, having been a member of both the health committee and the finance committee. We have had the opportunity to deal with officials, to deal with the minister responsible and to hear witnesses on a whole host of things.
I know the Reform Party has made some suggestions. It is useful to have suggestions on how the equalization program may be modified or may possibly be improved. The time to get these points before the House is through its committee system. That is why it is there.
I spent the afternoon listening patiently to the speeches. I intervened on a couple of points which I thought were concerning because they may have given Canadians the wrong impression about what the situation was with regard to the equalization program.
One of the examples given by the member for Medicine Hat dealt with the employment insurance system. The member suggested that the EI program was biased and a form of equalization in itself. The member also went on to present the House with a fact, at least in his own mind, that somehow people in Alberta have to wait longer to get EI benefits than somebody in the maritimes.
I am sorry but that is just not correct. It is absolutely wrong and the member should correct the record for what he said. They do not have to wait a half a year. The member said the people of Alberta had to wait a half a year and that is just not the case.
The employment insurance system is very specific. It is prescribed benefits for all Canadians. It has a clawback mechanism as well as intensity rules for frequent users which actually would reduce benefits, but in terms of eligibility for benefits what the member said to the House was absolutely wrong. The member should clarify the record.
The member from South Surrey presented the House with a very creative argument about immigration and how it was awful that Quebec was getting so much money per capita more than anybody else. She tabled the numbers and said that was $3,000 per capita here and $1,000 for somebody else. It begged a question. If the numbers were in fact that different, if the numbers were as they suggest unfair, why did the member not present to the House what the reasons were from the officials, from the department, from the minister, from any colleagues in this place? If only she asked the question, she would have had the answer.
Rather the whole strategy of this debate on behalf of the Reform Party was not to give answers but rather to raise spectres, to raise simple allegations and not to answer them, to leave Canadians hanging, saying that they said so, so it must be wrong.
That was not the case at all. The member for Calgary Southeast decided that he would try to slip one through on taxation by saying that all a province had to do was keep the tax rate low to continue to collect equalization payments. If they raised their taxes then they would lose some equalization dollars.
It is not as simple as one province increasing its tax rates and somehow losing some equalization payments. The system is much more complex than that and takes things into account. It provides for five-province averages of tax rates.
The allegations or insinuations in the House in many of the speeches given by Reform members have been to suggest that there is an inequity, to suggest that there is a wrong, to somehow suggest there is something going on that should not be going on. They have used time and time again a rhetorical question: “Is this fair? Look at these numbers. This could not be fair”. Not one member rose in his place and actually said “I made the inquiries and I now understand why the numbers are different”.
Every member of parliament has heard these questions before on things like Canadian film production subsidies where Quebec gets a disproportionate amount of subsidies for French film production on a per capita basis.
There is a reason for that and I will offer it to the House. The reason is that production for French language film is centred in Quebec and provides that film for French speaking Canadians across the country. It is not just for Quebeckers. It is for francophones in Canada who want to enjoy French language film. That is the explanation. If we take that into account we will see that the numbers are fair and equitable.
We will see with regard to immigration, with regard to property taxes and with regard to many of the examples the Reform Party raised as spectres of inequity that they are explainable. The question then becomes why did these members not do the right thing and explain the variances that they found in some of these issues. Why did they not try to answer the question? The reason is that it is politically opportunistic to raise the rhetorical question, suggest it is wrong and leave it there.
Canadians have a right to know all the facts. With due respect, I think what we have seen today is an example where members have not given all the facts. I do not think they have done Canadians a service by presenting facts without proper investigation, without proper inquiry to ensure that the allegations or the insinuations they are making were correct. These are important points for Canadians to know.
One of the most repeated allegations by the Reform Party today was that this system provides disincentives for the seven provinces that presently receive equalization to pursue economic growth, to create jobs and to improve their lot. This is basically saying that all premiers who receive equalization feel that they will get a better benefit by keeping equalization than there would get by having more growth and more jobs in their province. That is just not the case.
The economic spinoff and the ripple effect of economic growth and job creation in provinces create value added benefit for the provinces that is worth far more than simply the loss in equalization payments that they would otherwise receive.
It is absolutely absurd to suggest that a province would value equalization payments more than it would value jobs for its citizens. Yet throughout the entire debate the Reform Party has suggested that somehow the provinces, the treasury officials, the premiers and so on all get together and connive to see how they can screw the system.
When the provinces get together and they present their cases they know exactly who gets what. They know what the rules are. It is a transparent process. They know what the calculations are. There are adjustment features as the other member from B.C. mentioned. Those things are taken into account.
We have a system that is already in place. We have come forward to renew it for another five years. Effectively it has the same fundamental principles of equalization for the benefit of all Canadians which basically promote equity among Canadians regardless of where they live and regardless of where they choose to live because we are a mobile society. I think that is a very important aspect. The equalization program continues to support Canadians as a mobile society no matter where we choose to live, to work or to play.
Those things are there so that we have the services that we can get, no matter whether we are in the east or in the west. From coast to coast to coast the equalization program is there and working to ensure that all Canadians have those services.
I appreciated the opportunity to put some of these points on the record. It is important to understand that we are here at second reading.
I heard some suggestions where there may be some discussion about how we might change it. I welcome those suggestions from the members. I hope their representatives will be at the finance committee and that they bring their briefing books along to deal with the officials and to explore these possibilities. This is the opportunity to do it. If they believe they have adequate opportunity, they can make changes. That is the way democracy works.