Debates of April 27th, 1999

Supply

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[John Williams, Reform, St. Albert, AB]

Madam Speaker, we have now had the announcement today that the troops are moving closer and closer.

We have seen the terrible destruction of innocent people in Kosovo. They have been raped and murdered, their houses burned and their livelihoods destroyed. The hearts of all Canadians go out to them.

Let us look at what has been happening. NATO leaders huffed and puffed and then they started to bomb. In the meantime, Milosevic has continued his ethnic cleansing and the situation has worsened. We now have the announcement that troops are moving next door into Macedonia. There is this creeping effect that seems to be dragging us more and more into this morass each and every day.

I wonder what is going to be left of the Kosovars and Kosovo by the time we get around to pushing Milosevic out of that region so that these people can live peacefully. What kind of timetable does the minister have? It seems to me that by the time this thing drags out at the speed that NATO is moving there will be nothing left to save.

[Art Eggleton, Liberal, York Centre, ON]

Madam Speaker, I appreciate the concern expressed by the hon. member. We have that concern as well. We are anxious that this matter be brought to an end as quickly as it possibly can, using both military and diplomatic means. We want to see a solution to this matter as quickly as possible.

The air campaign is being intensified. Additional aircraft are going into the area. The Apache helicopters will soon be deployed. As the weather gets better more sorties will be carried out.

It is not that we want to do this. We would rather have Milosevic come to the table.

We put in place last fall this air operation plan. We then spent every bit of time between then and March 24 trying to find a diplomatic resolution to the matter. Still we must seek every opportunity to find that diplomatic resolution.

However, so far Mr. Milosevic has not yielded to what the international community asks of him, to pull back his troops and to let the Kosovars return to their homes. Yes, they are going to have to rebuild their homes. A lot of them have been burned out. They are going to need help in doing that. In fact the entire region is going to need help in reconstructing itself and moving forward economically. A lot of reconstruction work will have to be done.

So far Mr. Milosevic has not yielded. He ignores the international community. He goes on with his ethnic cleansing and the butchering of the people of Kosovo. We cannot stand by idly. We have done everything we can to this point in terms of diplomacy. We will continue to do things in terms of diplomacy, but meanwhile the air campaign will intensify until the Yugoslav government comes to the table and agrees to the terms. Then we can put in place a peacekeeping force, which will include 800 Canadians, to make sure that the Kosovars can return to their homes in peace and security.

[David Price, Progressive Conservative, Compton—Stanstead, QC]

Madam Speaker, I tend to agree with the minister this time. It does not always happen, but I think we are making the right move this time in moving in our peacekeepers. In fact, we said before that they probably should be there so they have a better chance to pre-train, as the minister said, and become a little more inter-operable with their British counterparts, with whom they will be working in the future.

What is the training background of the troops we are planning to send? Has it been strictly in peacekeeping? Will they be prepared to defend the borders, for instance, if there are incursions?

[Art Eggleton, Liberal, York Centre, ON]

Madam Speaker, I appreciate the comments and the support of the hon. member for Compton—Stanstead. I am pleased to receive particularly his remark that this is the right move to make.

With respect to the training they have received, all our troops that go overseas or to any mission receive standard training of combat capability. Part of the 1994 defence white paper was to have multipurpose combat capable troops. They also receive specific training relevant to the mission and relevant to peacekeeping.

Peacekeeping nowadays, as we have seen in Bosnia and in other areas, requires our troops to be able to defend themselves because of some very difficult circumstances. The Medak pocket was a great example of that in Bosnia a number of years ago. They have to be combat capable because peacekeeping can be dangerous at times. Over 100 Canadians in the years that we have been involved in peacekeeping have lost their lives in peacekeeping missions.

They have received standard combat capable training, specific training relevant to peacekeeping and specific training relevant to this mission. They will continue to get training while they are in Macedonia with the British brigade because we want the units to work well together. Our Canadians will be self-sustaining. They will be a sustainable force but they will work with the British and will get further training.

With respect to the borders, each of those countries has responsibility for their borders. We will also be there helping out in terms of the refugee problem wherever we can be of help. We would certainly want to make sure the refugees are protected, so there may be occasions when we could be involved. We hope that will not be the case in terms of that kind of defence. The essential responsibility for the borders belongs to each of the surrounding countries.

[Gordon Earle, NDP, Halifax West, NS]

Madam Speaker, my question will be very brief. With respect to the 800 troops that will be deployed, the minister mentioned combat capable. Does this mean these troops will be armed? Second, where will these troops be coming from, which particular area of Canada, which base?

[Art Eggleton, Liberal, York Centre, ON]

Madam Speaker, yes, they will be armed just as they are armed in Bosnia, as they are armed in most other theatres of peacekeeping operation. They will be armed and able to defend themselves if that becomes necessary.

They will be deployed out of Edmonton, Alberta. As I indicated earlier there will be some 280 vehicles. Those vehicles will start to move toward Montreal. They will then be put on a ship and sent to Europe and then taken from there into the former Yugoslav republic of Macedonia.

[Leon Benoit, Reform, Lakeland, AB]

Madam Speaker, I rise on a point of order. Because of the extra sense of urgency, the even added sense of urgency that has come about as a result of the Prime Minister's statement, I seek unanimous consent of the House to extend the question and comment period by five minutes.

[The Acting Speaker (Ms. Thibeault)]

Is there unanimous consent to extend the question and comment period by five minutes?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[Leon Benoit, Reform, Lakeland, AB]

Madam Speaker, I certainly am very pleased and thank the House for the unanimous consent to extend the question and comment period. This is an extremely sensitive situation and an extremely important issue of debate.

The Prime Minister expressed support for Canadians accelerating the conflict in the Balkans in two ways: first by the possibility of putting an embargo in place and second by sending Canadian troops to the area.

My question is for the Minister of National Defence. Are we in fact at war now? Has the government now decided that Canada is at war and, if not, should the decision of whether Canada goes to war be made by the executive branch of government or by parliament, by all members of the House?

The second question has to do with the chief of defence staff. We are sending 800 troops to the area. They are going as peacekeepers. The minister said that. However, with the acceleration of the conflict, it is quite possible that these troops could be involved in full combat before this situation is over.

Does the minister have assurance from the chief of defence staff, the person who would make decisions about the capability of our troops and whether they are properly equipped, that if it becomes a full combat situation Canadian troops can in fact meet the obligations that NATO will place on them?

[Art Eggleton, Liberal, York Centre, ON]

Madam Speaker, with respect to the question of whether or not this is called a war, I think most people call it that. However there are also legal implications of using that term. That term has not been used in the case of this conflict by either side. In fact it was not officially used in Korea. Korea was called a war by everybody but that was not part of the official terminology. Neither was it in the gulf. People will call things as they see them, but there is no change in the status as a result of what has been announced today.

I would beg to differ that the actions we have taken today are accelerating the conflict. We are sending troops over to be part of a peacekeeping mission. That has been made quite clear. It has also been made clear that if they change to doing anything else, anything that involves a heavier kind of conflict or less permissive kind of atmosphere going in on the ground into Kosovo, that matter would come back for debate in parliament and would require a decision of the government as well. That commitment sticks. These people are only going over there for that business. That hardly accelerates the conflict. They are just going over as peacekeepers.

In terms of what they are capable of doing, they are capable of being involved in a greater combat situation than we would hope peacekeeping would involve because they are trained as combat capable troops.

There can be speculation on the different kinds of readiness they would require, depending upon where we end up in terms of going into Kosovo, but our military planners are looking at a number of options. That is as far as it goes because the commitment at this point in time is to continue with and intensify the air campaign and to have the 800 troops as part of a peacekeeping force that would go into Kosovo when a ceasefire peace agreement has been reached.

[René Laurin, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

Madam Speaker, I rise on a point of order. I thought there was unanimous consent to give the member five more minutes. He already has had five additional minutes.

[The Acting Speaker (Ms. Thibeault)]

The five minutes have expired.

[Clifford Lincoln, Liberal, Lac-Saint-Louis, QC]

Madam Speaker, there are times in politics which go beyond partisanship; I believe the motion before us today is one of those.

I believe I am speaking for all of us here, and certainly for all Canadians, when I say that our priority is to reach a lasting and peaceful solution as soon as possible.

When I spoke last week about Kosovo, as did many of my colleagues, I mentioned that a peaceful solution would be more likely if the Russian government were involved on a more proactive basis. The Prime Minister also pointed this out on several occasions.

This is why I really congratulate the Minister of Foreign Affairs, who is soon to leave for Moscow to urge the Russian government to participate proactively in the quest for a solution involving the United Nations.

The talks the minister is about to embark on with Russia, together with certain NATO colleagues and the UN secretary general, could open the door to the possibility of a real and lasting solution. I believe this is the way to go in this conflict.

In the meantime we must do whatever we can, together with the UN community, to avoid an escalation of the conflict including a naval blockade, which will make it all that more difficult to enlist Russian co-operation. We must resist at all cost the temptation placed in our way by the British, among others, to escalate the NATO intervention toward an eventual ground war. I rejoice in this connection. At a summit meeting in Washington last week NATO leaders, including our Prime Minister, rejected the use of ground forces for military purposes.

I think, however, we all agree that Canada should play a leading role in the peacekeeping effort. In this sense I welcome the intervention of the Prime Minister and the Minister of National Defence today that we will get ready with our peacekeeping forces to participate actively in that effort.

More than ever now we must put our partisan differences aside and support wholeheartedly the initiative of the foreign minister and his colleagues in the search for prompt diplomatic solutions which might include economic and other sanctions through the United Nations, a solution which will achieve the return home of the Kosovars so savagely cast away from their rightful place and home in Kosovo.

Any solution should guarantee a lasting peace, and we are committed to guaranteeing a lasting peace through peacekeeping operations and the return of the Kosovars home to lead a normal life again.

I hope this will be a UN peacekeeping force which will include a broad spectrum of the various nations that usually participate in peacekeeping operations. We must be mindful that any solution will include the need to have a plan for reconstruction and rehabilitation of the Kosovars into their rightful homes and the reconstruction of the damage caused by the conflict. Once peace has returned it will take a formidable international challenge including massive financial resources both to guarantee peace and to ensure reconstruction and renewal of Kosovo and the areas destroyed by the conflict.

Therefore I join with all of us in the House in praying that the initiative of the foreign minister will be successful. I wish him and his colleagues in NATO and other countries, including the Secretary General of the United Nations, a successful and positive result in Moscow and Godspeed.

[Gordon Earle, NDP, Halifax West, NS]

Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. member for his comments. He spoke about the peacekeeping force and I am sure he heard earlier the hon. minister speak about that force as well.

Would the hon. member, being on the government side, have any knowledge of whether or not the Russians have been informed of this massing of troops? Would he feel that might jeopardize or impair ongoing diplomatic efforts?

[Clifford Lincoln, Liberal, Lac-Saint-Louis, QC]

Madam Speaker, I do not have any particular knowledge except that there are now some 12,000 troops already in place for peacekeeping purposes in the same way as our 800 troops will be involved.

The Prime Minister confirmed that these troops are there purely in anticipation of a peacekeeping role in Kosovo. The foreign minister is going to Moscow this week. I am sure he will assure the Russians that this is the intention of the troops there including ours. I do not see it prejudicing any possibility of a solution involving the Russians.

[René Laurin, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

Madam Speaker, we have now been discussing the problems in Kosovo for more than a month. I believe it is important for us to examine the progress we have made because the Prime Minister has just told us that he is now sending troops to Macedonia.

The situation is, briefly, as follows: Kosovar refugees have been driven out of Kosovo. Of these, some 140,000 are in Macedonia, 375,000 in Albania, and 75,000 in Montenegro. Some are in France, and a few in England. It is estimated that, in all, about 735,000 Kosovars have been forced out of their country. In addition, it is estimated that another 500,000 to 800,000 have been forced out of their homes but remain within Kosovo.

Considering that there are about two million Albanians in Kosovo, this means that more than three-quarters of the population is now experiencing instability.

This situation requires us to ask ourselves what our reaction should be, as a country that is outside this theatre of military conflict.

Obviously, we cannot be insensitive to the situation, but it must be kept in mind that what we are seeking first of all is to restore peace. We also seek to prevent more Kosovars being forced out of their country. We seek to restore peace. We want to see the expelled Kosovars be allowed to return to their country of origin and start to rebuild.

So we cannot oppose any action that might lead to the achievement of these objectives. The last measure we discussed was an embargo by NATO members and neighbouring countries to block oil supplies to Serbia.

Obviously, if, after we have bombed oil refineries and destroyed this means of oil production, they succeed in obtaining oil supplies from outside, we have not really resolved the problem. There are in fact countries that would stand to benefit since, for them, this is a new export target. It could be economically attractive, as a stopgap measure.

We are not talking about a blockade. I think that was made clear. Setting up a blockade could be very dangerous, because it assumes military force will be used against tankers bringing supplies to Serbia. There could be Russian tankers among these ships, and the Russians are sympathetic to the Serbian cause, at present. Will we open up new fronts? I think we have to be very careful.

An embargo implies the willing consent of all possible oil suppliers. If the international community is aware of the danger Kosovo represents, it should willingly agree to this embargo and refuse to deliver oil to this country in conflict.

The best solution is still patience, diplomacy and political negotiations.

It is true we are dropping bombs, and there are skirmishes. There is no ground combat, but there is air combat. However, we must think that, beyond the fighting, there will have to be peace one day. So every action taken today must be taken, considered and planned according to what will happen at the end of the conflict.

It is all very well to crush a people and a political regime, but to crush the feelings and emotions of a people is something else. These people will have to live together after the conflict and live in peace. The Kosovars and the Serbs will have to live next to each other and maintain economic, social and political relations. They will have to accept to live as a community.

When two peoples are pitted against each other, they can be forced to cohabit. They can be physically forced to do something, but we cannot change their souls, their minds, their feelings and their emotions through force.

The consequences of this conflict may be felt for many years, if not generations. This is why we must carefully measure the impact of each action, to avoid exacerbating the psychological state of those who will have to live together after the conflict has ended.

We must save lives, not only the lives of Kosovars, who are currently mistreated and forced from their homes, but also the lives of Serbs. There are Serbs who are innocent in this conflict. There is a president, a dictator who does not care about the population. However, there are also innocent Serbs who are being forced to take military action.

Not all the Serbs are prepared to take arms in this conflict. These people also deserve to live. They too are at the mercy of a tyrant and they will need understanding and help. Their lives deserve to be saved just like those of the Kosovars and of the people in neighbouring countries.

Instability in the Balkans would pose a threat to all of Europe and perhaps even to the other countries that might be drawn into a world war. We must take great care that this goal of saving lives now does not lead us to thoughtless acts of war that would yield undesirable results.

At any rate, the decisions being made are very serious. This is why we congratulated the Prime Minister today on informing us of Canada's most recent decision to send troops over there. We are delighted that the House was the first to be informed, but we believe this is not enough.

We still ask for a vote on this and on the deployment of troops. We do not know what the future will bring.

What will happen to the 600 or 800 Canadian troops who are going to be sent to Macedonia in the weeks to come? They will bear arms, they might come under attack. This has already begun. This morning a dispatch published in Le Monde said “Acts of anger or open hostility against NATO countries are becoming more numerous in Macedonia”.

Further it said “The twelve thousand NATO men stationed in Macedonia frequently have stones thrown at them. On April 20, a French forces jeep was set on fire in a village inhabited by Serbs”. This is happening in Macedonia. This is what NATO troops are being subjected to.

How can we tell whether in a week or two—

[The Speaker]

I am sorry to interrupt the hon. member, but his time is up. He will still have five minutes to respond to other members' questions or comments after Oral Question Period.

We will now proceed to Statements by Members.

Air Cadets

[Bryon Wilfert, Liberal, Oak Ridges, ON]

Mr. Speaker, this year marks the 30th anniversary of the 778 Banshee Royal Canadian Air Cadet Squadron in Richmond Hill.

From its early beginnings in 1969, the 778 Banshee Squadron has been an active force in the community, whether it has been in helping out with many community activities or in supporting local charities. Its tireless efforts were rewarded in 1998 by the town of Richmond Hill by being awarded the best volunteer organization in the community.

From an initial membership of 30 in 1969 to a strength of 110 today, the cadets are continually learning that hard work and team effort produce positive results. Their motto: To learn, to serve, to advance.

The rewards of joining the air cadets are many. The vision and attributes it builds in our youth are outstanding.

Commanding Officer Javed Khan, his officers and civilian instructor team and all the cadets have much to be proud of. I take this opportunity to congratulate them. I wish them every success in the future.

Freedom Of The Press

[Howard Hilstrom, Reform, Selkirk—Interlake, MB]

Mr. Speaker, freedom of the press is one of the cornerstones of a democratic society. I believe this cornerstone is being weakened by the direct intervention of the federal government.

Terry Milewski of the CBC reported possible misconduct by the Prime Minister. The PMO complained and Milewski was suspended. Given the price he paid in reporting this story, will Milewski be willing to report negatively on the Prime Minister in the future?

John Collison, a vocal critic of Winnipeg's mayor, was recently dismissed as a talk show host at Winnipeg radio station 1290 Fox. He was fired because in his words “station managers feared reprisal from the CRTC”. Mr. Collison stated, “I feel the CRTC has created a situation where you are advised to check your civil liberties at the door, that if you enter a broadcast profession, you give up the freedom of conscience, expression and speech”.

I may not agree with a journalist's opinion or with how the journalist reports a story. However, I will defend with my life their right to freely express their opinions without government interference.

Mining Industry

[Charles Caccia, Liberal, Davenport, ON]

Mr. Speaker, arsenic is a very dangerous substance when it comes in contact with humans. Arsenic often reaches drinking water from mining operations.

In Yellowknife the Giant gold mine contains 260,000 tonnes of arsenic dust. Clean-up costs are estimated at $100 million. The owner of the mine has filed for bankruptcy. Who will pay for the clean-up?

Meanwhile in Ontario the provincial government has failed to prevent massive arsenic leaks from an old mine and toxic waste dump near Belleville.

Clearly where pollution has already occurred, the polluter must pay. The mining industry has a responsibility to the public and should not leave Canadians on the hook for the damage caused by its activities. The mining industry should live up to its Yellowknife declaration and clean up its contaminated sites instead of passing on the damage to the public purse, mainly to Canadians at large.

International Association Of Fire Fighters

[Judi Longfield, Liberal, Whitby—Ajax, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I rise today to welcome the International Association of Fire Fighters to Ottawa as it holds its eighth annual Canadian Legislative Conference.

Firefighters form the backbone of our emergency services. They are always the first on the scene. They are always prepared to do whatever it takes to deliver others from harm's way, including risking their own lives.

As the former chair of the Whitby Fire Department, I had the opportunity to work closely with these men and women. I can personally attest to their professionalism, their loyalty and their devotion to making our communities safer.

The IAFF continues to push for the adoption of Operation Respond and for the establishment of a third party federally regulated investigative agency that would help protect firefighters from some of the dangers they face on a daily basis.

Renowned on the hill for their hospitality, our firefighters have come to us with proposals that will make our communities much safer. I thank them for their continuing efforts and wish them a successful conclusion to their visit in Ottawa.

Leukemia

[Jim Abbott, Reform, Kootenay—Columbia, BC]

Mr. Speaker, recently I had the pleasure of meeting a truly special individual from Kootenay—Columbia, a young lady who has beaten the odds and provided inspiration for people across Canada and the world.

Pamela Finnie, who lives in Golden, B.C., was diagnosed with leukemia in 1994 when she was 10 years old. At that time, Pamela found it difficult to talk to anyone about her illness and instead channelled her feelings into a scrapbook, stories and even a book entitled “My Life with Leukemia”.

She also used her creative talents to develop a board game for kids called “Talking for Tokens”. Knowing how she felt when she was diagnosed with leukemia and how hard it was to talk about it, Pamela created the game to help other kids with cancer to express their feelings.

Pamela is now 15 years old and tomorrow will be honoured with the Terry Fox Award on the 10th annual YTV Achievement Awards. I know I speak for everyone in Kootenay—Columbia and, I am sure, in the House when I thank her for her inspiration and unwavering strength. Congratulations to Pamela.

Youth Violence

[Gurbax Malhi, Liberal, Bramalea—Gore—Malton, ON]

Mr. Speaker, last week two teenagers killed 13 people at a high school in Littleton, Colorado, in the U.S. Those who say it cannot happen here in Canada should remember December 6, 1989 when 14 young women were killed in Montreal.

Television, movies, computers, video games and the Internet, all these modern developments are leading to a decline in empathy among today's youth. Contact with machines is no substitute for human interaction. Technology firms and research groups must reconsider the impact of the various mass media on our humanity.

It is time for government to introduce more public awareness programs through community groups, schools, police and volunteer organizations aimed at helping youth get in touch with their feelings and the feelings of others.