Debates of Feb. 8th, 2000

Human Resources Development

[Paul Crête, Bloc, Kamouraska—Rivière-Du-Loup—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Mr. Speaker, the Prime Minister is trying to play down the importance of Human Resources Development Canada's loss of control by reducing to only 37 the number of problem cases. The scandal involves a great many more files according to the internal audit report.

How can the government justify the fact that of the 459 files audited, 80% were not subject to any financial monitoring? We are not talking about 37 files, but 367.

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, all the documents were made public, and the auditors found 37 cases that warranted additional study. This represents a figure of approximately $30 million.

Next week, each of the 37 cases will be thoroughly analyzed and solutions provided. If people have received money they are not entitled to, they will have to repay the government.

[Paul Crête, Bloc, Kamouraska—Rivière-Du-Loup—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Mr. Speaker, according to the same internal audit report, in 97% of the projects audited, the government paid out money to promoters without checking to see whether there were outstanding debts to Human Resources Development Canada, something that must be done.

Will the Prime Minister acknowledge that 445 of the 459 cases are involved and not the 37 he likes to repeat?

[Jane Stewart, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development]

Mr. Speaker, this gives me a chance to ask the hon. member to read our six point action plan. If he will understand it he will know that these issues will be dealt with.

First and foremost, the first item is that we will ensure that all payments meet financial requirements. Secondly, and this goes to the point of the hon. member, we will check and correct all problem files.

[Val Meredith, Reform, South Surrey—White Rock—Langley, BC]

Mr. Speaker, the human resources audit uncovered an appalling pattern of mismanagement and misuse of funds, many just prior to the 1997 election. The human resources minister ignored that audit. The minister was so irresponsible and so needy of attention that she handed her own riding three-quarters of a million dollars in grants as late as November, in spite of the fact that her riding does not qualify.

She abused the granting rule, she botched $1 billion and she refuses to accept responsibility. How can Canadians possibly trust this minister?

[Jane Stewart, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development]

Mr. Speaker, again, no rules were ever broken with applications for programs in my riding.

The hon. member is talking about transitional jobs fund programs in areas over 12%. Let us look at where those programs and projects were approved: in the riding of Kootenay—Columbia, six projects, with a value of $3.5 million; in the riding of Nanaimo—Alberni, seven projects, $2.3 million; in the riding of Nanaimo—Cowichan, six projects, $1.5 million.

[Val Meredith, Reform, South Surrey—White Rock—Langley, BC]

Mr. Speaker, in the minister's own words the mark was 12%, yet the 1996 Canada census shows the unemployment rate in the minister's riding of Brant at 8.4%. Statistics Canada in 1999 gave the unemployment rate of that riding as 6%.

How does the minister feel that her riding qualifies? Where does that riding get 12% unemployment?

[Jane Stewart, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development]

Mr. Speaker, again, there were no rules broken for applications for transitional jobs funds in my riding.

There is a story I would like to tell the House about the member for Edmonton North, who in the darkest times in my riding, when another plant was closing, went there to speak to the employees. She asked “Where is your member of parliament? She is doing nothing for you”.

Then we see them challenging me on the implementation of programs like TJF. It is clear that the Reform Party is only happy when the people of my riding are not working.

[Michel Gauthier, Bloc, Roberval, QC]

Mr. Speaker, the Prime Minister is trying to create a diversion by repeating that the bungling at Human Resources Development Canada involves only 37 cases.

However, the department's internal audit report says that 303 cases were approved without analysis and that 165 projects out of 459 obtained unjustified fund increases.

Will the Prime Minister admit that, by telling us that only 37 cases were involved, he is trying to hide the facts in order to save the government's face and his incompetent minister?

[Jane Stewart, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development]

Mr. Speaker, again I would draw the hon. member's attention to our six point plan.

Indeed, we point out that we will look at all our active files. If we find that there are issues of overpayment, we will deal with them. If we find that there are cases of fraud or misappropriation, the appropriate authorities will be brought in.

[Michel Gauthier, Bloc, Roberval, QC]

Mr. Speaker, 321 projects out of 459 submitted no invoices or payroll records to back up expenses. Of the 459 projects, 367 were not subject to any financial monitoring. And they find that funny.

Should the Prime Minister not admit that his minister is completely incompetent and that taxpayers' money is extremely badly managed by his government? It is a scandal.

[Jane Stewart, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development]

Let me say again, Mr. Speaker, that the strategy we have built is one that has been recognized by the auditor general as being workable.

Let me make another comment on a statement by the assistant auditor general.

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh.

[The Speaker]

Order, please.

[Jane Stewart, Liberal, Brant, ON]

Mr. Speaker, we are talking about our approach to remedying this problem. The assistant auditor general said “Right now the minister has said, and the officials have said, that they have aggressively put a program in place that will address these problems immediately.

I have had some discussions with the officials in the department and I must say that they are taking this very, very seriously. They are making it a priority and they are putting a number of things in place immediately”.

[Grant Hill, Reform, Macleod, AB]

Mr. Speaker, ministerial accountability means that the minister is accountable for the management of her department.

We have discovered rules that were not followed, money that was improperly spent, and a minister that directed taxpayers' money to her own riding.

What is the minister waiting for to resign?

[Jane Stewart, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development]

Mr. Speaker, I do not take a job and not finish it.

I received information that said we could do a much better job in administering grants and contributions. I made the report public. I wanted Canadians to know that we had a challenge in our department and that we were going to fix it. In working with my department very closely, we have built a plan of action that has the approval of the auditor general. We are going to implement it and we are going to fix this problem once and for all.

[Grant Hill, Reform, Macleod, AB]

Mr. Speaker, do you know what would have happened to this minister in private industry? Stockholders would have met and she would have been out the door in five seconds. Why is it so difficult for the Liberal government?

When is this minister simply going to clean out her desk, turn in her key and let somebody else take over her department? When?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, I would like to say something. The people of Canada have looked at this government very closely.

[An hon. member]

No.

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Saint-Maurice, QC]

Yes. And we did not have to change our name four times.

The people of Canada recognize that we started with a deficit of $42 billion and we now have a surplus. We started with an 11.5% unemployment rate. We now have the lowest rate in 24 years at 6.8%. The interest rates were 11% when we started and are now at 6%. That is why the people know that when we have a problem we will solve it.

[Christiane Gagnon, Bloc, Québec, QC]

Mr. Speaker, Placeteco, a company in the riding of Saint-Maurice that is well known to the Prime Minister because the former director general of the Liberal Party of Canada works there, obtained $1.2 million. The net result is that 61 jobs disappeared.

Can the Prime Minister tell us whether Placeteco is on the list of projects for which sponsors will have to return money, as he said yesterday?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, the projects in my riding, like those in all ridings, are subject to the same audits and the same rules.

There were projects in my riding, and there were projects of all sorts in all ridings where required. In this case, they received a grant and, like everyone else, they will have to follow the rules that apply to all ridings in Canada.

Endangered Species

[Aileen Carroll, Liberal, Barrie—Simcoe—Bradford, ON]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of the Environment.

Canadians are very concerned about the protection of wildlife species and their ecosystems. Dr. David Green, of the Committee on the Status of Endangered Wildlife in Canada, says that the current list of endangered species is just the tip of the iceberg.

What additional money and manpower will be made available to increase scientific species assessments and reviews?

[David Anderson, Liberal, Minister of the Environment]

Mr. Speaker, I will start by thanking Dr. David Green and the members of the Committee on the Status of Endangered Wildlife in Canada for the excellent work they have done over the last 22 years.

I can assure the hon. member that the independence and the scientific credibility of the committee will be protected in the new legislation that I will be introducing within the next month. I can assure her that I will be discussing with Dr. Green the resources that his committee will need for the new responsibilities that the legislation will make necessary.