Debates of May 18th, 2000

Human Resources Development

[Anne McLellan, Liberal, Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada]

Mr. Speaker, I must respond to the inaccurate representation of my comments yesterday in the House by the hon. member for Medicine Hat.

I did not say that the Privacy Act needs an overhaul. What I said was that the Privacy Act, in light of technological change and advancements in areas like DNA, may in fact need to be reviewed.

Let me reiterate for the House—

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh.

[The Speaker]

Order, please. We will hear the answer.

[Anne McLellan, Liberal, Edmonton West, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I want to reiterate for everyone in the House that the information in question is secure. The privacy of Canadians is protected under this law.

[Michel Gauthier, Bloc, Roberval, QC]

Mr. Speaker, all Canadians are in shock. The federal government is collecting information on each of us without our knowledge. The Minister of National Revenue is merrily supplying information from our tax returns to his colleague, the Minister of Human Resources Development, without our permission.

How should I feel today, when the tax return I just sent in will be forwarded to HRDC so that the government can help itself to the information it apparently needs?

[Martin Cauchon, Liberal, Minister of National Revenue and Secretary of State (Economic Development Agency of Canada for the Regions of Quebec)]

Mr. Speaker, I think that we must not start crying wolf.

One of the fundamental principles of the Income Tax Act is the confidentiality of information. This is a principle that we will continue to defend as long as the Liberal Party forms the government.

I said yesterday that information was exchanged with other departments in connection with jointly administered programs.

One example, to be a bit more specific than I was in my answer yesterday, is paragraph 241.4( d )( x ) of the Income Tax Act.

[Michel Gauthier, Bloc, Roberval, QC]

Mr. Speaker, the minister can tell us not to cry wolf, but there is a whole pack of wolves on the other side of the House.

There is nothing complicated about it: all the information that this government has worries the privacy commissioner. And we are the ones crying wolf?

Will the Minister of National Revenue assure us that the information he is handing over to the Minister of Human Resources Development is the same as what he hands over to the RCMP in the case of a fraud investigation, for example?

[Martin Cauchon, Liberal, Minister of National Revenue and Secretary of State (Economic Development Agency of Canada for the Regions of Quebec)]

Mr. Speaker, at the risk of repeating myself, the element of confidentiality is a fundamental element we will continue to protect.

I have said that there could be exchanges of information in the case of jointly administered programs. I briefly alluded to sections of the Income Tax Act authorized us to exchange this information, which is done with a view to improving government administration.

Once again, I think that the opposition should join with the government so that we can explain to the public that when we speak of confidentiality, privacy, it is something we do not take lightly.

[Val Meredith, Reform, South Surrey—White Rock—Langley, BC]

Mr. Speaker, the claims by the human resources minister are not to be believed. Her own internal security audit warns: “Most HRDC personnel do not have a good understanding or clear knowledge of current information technology security policies”. How can the minister claim that her department will safeguard Canadians' private files when her own officials are not even aware of the policy on security?

[Jane Stewart, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development]

Mr. Speaker, again we see that party fabricating and repeating misinformation.

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh.

[The Speaker]

On one side we have “not to be believed” and on the other side we have “fabricating”. I urge members to stay away from words—

[An hon. member]

Oh, oh.

[The Speaker]

I ask the hon. secretary of state for finance to please keep his voice down.

[Jane Stewart, Liberal, Brant, ON]

Mr. Speaker, again the opposition is mixing apples and oranges. It is trying to confuse Canadians. It is suggesting things that really are not there.

In the context of this audit we were looking at an information technology system and network that has nothing to do—nothing to do—with the program that the privacy commissioner focused upon. In that case it is a stand alone system. It is highly secure. There is very limited access to this information. The information is encrypted and it is secure.

[Val Meredith, Reform, South Surrey—White Rock—Langley, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I find it amazing that the system does not belong and yet it is encrypted. It would seem to me that the technology that is there now is what is being used to gather this information on 33 million people.

HRDC security policies are not even uniform across the country. The security audit states: “Variances among regional offices led to inconsistent IT security measures, such as various IT security risks not being appropriately addressed”.

Why is the minister pretending that she can protect Canadians' privacy when she cannot even enforce a basic uniform policy?

[Jane Stewart, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development]

Mr. Speaker, that same audit said that our processes and practices were satisfactory and in fact exceeded those of the private sector.

We all have to be careful when we talk about individual information. On this side of the House we are careful. On this side of the House we protect data.

I am wondering, when we find out that one of the leadership candidates for that member's party has been inappropriately collecting and using lists, if indeed she is talking to him about how appropriate it is to manage personal information in an effective way.

[Michel Bellehumeur, Bloc, Berthier—Montcalm, QC]

Mr. Speaker, yesterday, people asked at an office of Human Resources Development Canada to have the information contained in their personal files. Their request was denied, and they were referred to Ottawa and told to make a request for access to personal information.

Will the minister tell us why it is so complicated for an ordinary citizen to obtain personal information on himself, when her department can get it without the consent of the individual?

[Jane Stewart, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development]

Mr. Speaker, in this regard we have to ensure that the citizen asking for information is indeed the person that he or she purports to be. To use and benefit from the access to information process is the right strategy in this regard.

If the hon. member knows people who want to obtain this information, it is available, but it should be obtained through the access to information system.

[Michel Bellehumeur, Bloc, Berthier—Montcalm, QC]

Mr. Speaker, let us be clear. In order to obtain information that concerns me, information in my file, I go personally with my identity cards, me the person on file, to Human Resources Development Canada where I have to make a request for access to personal information in Ottawa with all the delays that entails.

Could the minister explain why I have to submit a request for access, when the departments exchange personal information that concerns me, on request, with a snap of the finger?

[Jane Stewart, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development]

Mr. Speaker, again I want to make it absolutely clear that what we do is in the context of the laws of this land. There is no breaking of the law in this undertaking.

Surely the hon. member agrees that to use the access to information process, that which comes from an act of this parliament, is the appropriate thing to do when dealing with sensitive information.

[Rahim Jaffer, Reform, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Mr. Speaker, the minister can claim all she wants that she has information security under control, but the fact is that her own officials who run her computer systems do not even get security training. Listen to this: “Since most administrators received no formal information technology security training or had little background in IT security, their concerns and expertise for IT security varied and led to inconsistent practices”.

Why should Canadians entrust their most private information to a proven bungler whose staff is not trained to handle it?

[The Speaker]

I would ask members, please, to address each other by their proper titles.

[Jane Stewart, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development]

Mr. Speaker, the hon. member does not have to believe in me. Let us review again what the privacy commissioner said. He said: “Certainly, we are not aware, nor has it been brought to our attention, that the database has ever been compromised or access inappropriately obtained by virtue of deficiencies in security safeguards. For that your department should be commended”.

[Rahim Jaffer, Reform, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Mr. Speaker, it is not just what HRDC does with its computers now that is a problem, it is how it gets rid of them as well. The security audit warns: “There is no assurance that all hard drives are erased of potentially sensitive data prior to disposal”.

I realize that keeping track of what leaves her office is not exactly the minister's specialty, but this kind of neglect leaves privacy vulnerable.

Why is the minister who bungled $1 billion now in possession of Canadians' most private information?