House of Commons Hansard #97 of the 37th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was poetry.

Topics

Business of the HouseOral Question Period

3 p.m.

Glengarry—Prescott—Russell Ontario

Liberal

Don Boudria LiberalMinister of State and Leader of the Government in the House of Commons

Mr. Speaker, let me start by thanking House leaders of all parties for their co-operation in these particularly tumultuous times. I think indeed the nation is well served by their co-operation.

This afternoon we will continue with the consideration of Bill C-15A, respecting child pornography and other amendments to the criminal code. I understand that consideration of that is nearing its end.

After that I will call the resumption of consideration of Bill C-35, respecting foreign missions. Should that consideration terminate before the end of the day, I do not propose to call other bills today.

On Friday we will deal with report stage and third reading of Bill S-23, the Customs Act amendments.

On Monday we will debate Bill C-37, the Alberta-Saskatchewan land claims bill, as well as any other legislation that may not have been completed under consideration over the next couple of days.

Next Tuesday shall be an allotted day. I believe it is in the name of the Canadian Alliance again.

On Wednesday we will consider Bill C-32 concerning Costa Rican trade.

I was asked a question regarding the preparation of the second omnibus bill further to the first one that is presently, as of an hour or two ago, before committee. I do not have a timeline on that yet.

As well, I am not aware whether the next bill would be a compendium of bills such as the first one was or perhaps only one or two in a separate manner. However I will try to obtain as much information as possible for the House leaders meeting next Tuesday so that I can make that information available through the House leaders to all colleagues.

Business of the HouseOral Question Period

3:05 p.m.

Progressive Conservative

Elsie Wayne Progressive Conservative Saint John, NB

Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order. I would like to know when the hon. House leader for the government will be tabling supplementary estimates for the Office of Critical Infrastructure Protection and Emergency Preparedness.

In view of the fact that there could be terrorist attacks with regard to nuclear, biological and chemical incidents, there is a need for more money for that department. We truly need time to examine the estimates, so we would like to know when he will table supplementary estimates.

Business of the HouseOral Question Period

3:05 p.m.

Liberal

Don Boudria Liberal Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON

Mr. Speaker, the date of tabling of the estimates is designated in the standing orders. It is certainly our intention to respect that and to do it obviously within the rules as provided. As to whether, exceptionally, they can be tabled earlier for the reasons the hon. member has asked about, I will endeavour to find out. However right now I have no information in that regard.

Points of OrderOral Question Period

3:05 p.m.

Liberal

Sarkis Assadourian Liberal Brampton Centre, ON

Mr. Speaker, I would like to make some corrections to page 6276 of Hansard , October 17, in the debate on Bill C-36. In the second column, third paragraph, it should read “USS Cole navy ship”.

The second correction is on the same page, same column, in seventh paragraph, which should read “Algeria” and not “Nigeria”.

The third correction is in the eighth paragraph, third line from the bottom, which should read “in a” and not “from the”.

The blues were late, by the way. That is why I could not make the corrections.

PrivilegeOral Question Period

3:05 p.m.

Progressive Conservative

André Bachand Progressive Conservative Richmond—Arthabaska, QC

Mr. Speaker, I rise on a question of privilege. In response to my question today regarding the testing of the generic version of Cipro, the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Health gave his assurances to the House that the generic version was in fact safe.

With all due respect, we have just learned that in response to a similar question in the other place the leader of the government acknowledged that the testing process for the generic version of Cipro has been fast tracked by Health Canada and that the tests were not yet conclusive.

The government is giving us different answers. Members of the House deserve clear and uniform answers from the government. I would like the government to clarify its position on this matter.

It is a question of information, but if the government wants people to know what has to be done and where it is headed, clear answers are necessary.

PrivilegeOral Question Period

3:05 p.m.

The Speaker

The hon. member will have an opportunity to take part in the debate on the adjournment motion concerning the question he has asked. He may proceed in this fashion. I suggest that he take that course to determine the truth in a case such as this.

There is a dispute as to the facts and it is not for the Chair to adjudicate on that. I think he knows that well. He has other avenues he could pursue, and of course he could always ask another question tomorrow.

The House resumed consideration of the motion that Bill C-15A, an act to amend the Criminal Code and to amend other acts, be read the third time and passed.

Criminal Law Amendment Act (2001)Government Orders

October 18th, 2001 / 3:10 p.m.

Progressive Conservative

Peter MacKay Progressive Conservative Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough, NS

Mr. Speaker, I was discussing section 690 of the criminal code which deals with miscarriages of justice. Members would know that currently there is a case on the landscape regarding Steven Truscott, who was convicted of murder at age 14 on very speculative and circumstantial evidence. A book has been published with respect to his case and there is also a section 690 application forthcoming from Mr. Truscott and his lawyer.

The House would know that appellate courts usually hear wrongful conviction cases and grant remedies. After the judicial avenues have all been exhausted, section 690 of the criminal code empowers the justice minister to review alleged wrongful convictions. The courts may not have detected or may not have been privy to certain information that was available at the time and therefore may not have granted the proper remedies.

Many observers and critics have looked at the new proposed section and view it with somewhat of a jaded eye since the proposed amendments do not accomplish much. They still leave the power of overturning the conviction in the hands of the minister.

In the British example it is put before an impartial body that reviews the evidence with greater impartial investigative powers. Many lawyers, including a very eminent lawyer, James Lockyer who works with the AIDWYC group, maintain that it is much better to put this power in the hands of an impartial arbitrator or adjudicator.

The elements of wrongful convictions and the harm that can flow are substantial and severe. I hope the Minister of Justice would continue to examine it. I hope that passing the amendments under section 690 would not preclude revisiting this when greater evidence is brought forward.

The House would also know that there is a hearing under way at this time that may bring to light new evidence that would bear on this section.

Generally speaking the legislation that we have before us is something that is very positive. It allows crown prosecutors greater powers with respect to the laying of certain charges. Crown prosecutors like Kathy Pentz of the Nova Scotia public prosecution service and prosecutors from across the country will be pleased when they are informed of these new criminal code sections that would come into effect upon the passage of the legislation.

I was encouraged to see that the department would now undertake to prepare documents that would accompany changes to the criminal code. These would be made available to the provincial attorneys general and the counterparts of the minister at the federal level to allow for a quick synergy or transition into being of these sections.

The coalition is supportive of the bill. We raised a number of amendments at the committee stage and we were given an opportunity to hear from numerous witnesses on this omnibus bill. I alluded earlier to the fact that this legislation was split into eight sections. The bill before us, Bill C-15A, has been whittled down to contain six of the positive elements that we fully support.

The legislation talks about the need to create a higher penalty standard for disarming a police officer. It talks about upping the ante in terms of sentencing ranges that could be meted out for home invasion. Members of the coalition and other members of the House would have preferred that a separate distinct offence for home invasion was brought into the criminal code to reflect the seriousness of that type of criminal behaviour.

An offender who enters a home knowing that the person is in the house and attempts to commit a robbery or a burglary that very often results in a physical confrontation merits a separate criminal code offence that would be more of a deterrent. It would have a greater impact in the criminal justice system if it were considered a separate, stand alone offence.

I referred at the very outset to the changes in the criminal code that pertain to the broadcasting of pornographic material over the Internet. Internet service providers, particularly smaller Internet service providers, raised their concerns in committee. Amendments were put forward that would have provided greater certainty for those individuals, but those amendments were defeated by the Liberal majority.

Internet service providers such as AOL Canada strongly supported the government's effort to limit the existence of child pornography online and to capture the wrongdoers. However it felt the bill should have been amended to eliminate what it felt was the possibility of liability attached to the stakeholders who participate in the blocking or the removal of the material.

These Internet service providers are being very diligent in their efforts to self-police their systems. Yet they were concerned that by virtue of the wording of this legislation they could get caught in the net of cracking down on individuals who bring forward online pornography.

The legislation includes the wording “actual or constructive knowledge” and therein lies the problem. What constitutes actual knowledge, particularly constructive knowledge in the online context? The amendments I put forward were rejected. Yet any person who knowingly transmits, sells, imports or is in possession of this type of material can be prosecuted under offences that pertain to child pornography.

I realize that this is a comprehensive bill. I will now deal with criminal harassment. Senator Oliver of the other place has been extremely diligent in pursuing this issue to increase the penalties for those who engage in harassment or stalking, as it is more commonly known.

Stalking is an offence that has come to public knowledge in the past number of years. Women are most often the victims of such harassment and have their entire lives disrupted by persistent phone calls, mail, or by having an individual follow them on many occasions. This type of behaviour can be very dangerous. It is often a precursor to physical assaults and sexual assaults.

The coalition is supportive that penalties for convictions for criminal harassment would be raised. It was the Conservative government in 1993 that introduced through Bill C-126 amendments to the criminal code which first put this offence into legislation. The maximum penalty at that time was five years. This legislation would increase that penalty to 10 years.

We view the legislation as positive and a step in the right direction to ensure greater public safety. It would provide a greater deterrence to offenders who after due process have been convicted under criminal code sections. We look forward to it becoming part of the criminal code along with the other consequential pieces of legislation that are amended by its passage. The coalition will be supporting this legislation.

Criminal Law Amendment Act (2001)Government Orders

3:20 p.m.

Liberal

Peter Adams Liberal Peterborough, ON

Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order. There have been consultations and I would like to seek unanimous consent to present two reports from the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs.

Criminal Law Amendment Act (2001)Government Orders

3:20 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

Does the House give consent to the hon. member for Peterborough to present these reports?

Criminal Law Amendment Act (2001)Government Orders

3:20 p.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

Committees of the HouseRoutine Proceedings

3:20 p.m.

Liberal

Peter Adams Liberal Peterborough, ON

Mr. Speaker, I have the honour to present the 31st and 32nd report of the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs regarding the selection of votable items. In accordance with Standing Order 92 these reports are deemed adopted on presentation.

Committees of the HouseRoutine Proceedings

3:20 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Garry Breitkreuz Canadian Alliance Yorkton—Melville, SK

Mr. Speaker, I rise under Standing Order 35(2). The official opposition has submitted a dissenting report and I would like to briefly explain what that contains.

We believe that all private members' business should be votable. The House gave its unanimous consent on June 12, 2001, to a motion from the Alliance calling on a workable proposal allowing for all items to be votable.

Notwithstanding Standing Order 92(1) the subcommittee on private members' business refused to deem all items votable, and we disagree with that. We would like to see all items votable. We feel this is a key reform that needs to take place in the House to improve democracy and give all private members an opportunity to bring forward items that could be debated and decided on in the House.

The House resumed consideration of the motion that Bill C-15A, an act to amend the Criminal Code and to amend other acts, be read the third time and passed.

Criminal Law Amendment Act (2001)Government Orders

3:20 p.m.

NDP

Peter Stoffer NDP Sackville—Musquodoboit Valley—Eastern Shore, NS

Mr. Speaker, I thank my hon. colleague from Nova Scotia for his comments on the bill before the House in terms of child pornography. As he well knows the current attorney general of Saskatchewan, Chris Axworthy, who was a 10 year member of the House, introduced a private member's bill years ago specifically dealing with Internet access to child pornography which I have now taken over.

With the expansion of the Internet our children are at greater risk in terms of child pornography and pedophilia. The pedophiles are getting smarter in attracting unaware children. Unfortunately many parents do not understand the risk. Why does the hon. member feel that the government is so reluctant to tackle such an important issue in a strong and forceful manner?

Criminal Law Amendment Act (2001)Government Orders

3:20 p.m.

Progressive Conservative

Peter MacKay Progressive Conservative Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough, NS

Mr. Speaker, I thank my hon. colleague for the question. I share his concerns about the delay involved in getting this bill before us. Even if the legislation had passed last June, it is virtually inexcusable we have not acted sooner to protect children from the activity of luring over the Internet, which is what the legislation is aimed at curbing.

This problem has been with us for a long time. I know the Catholic women's league and the Sisters of Saint Martha in my riding of Pictou--Antigonish--Guysborough have been very proactive in their white ribbon campaign to remind the government and to constantly keep the issue on the front burner in terms of legislative initiatives such as this one.

One would hope that this step does not preclude future efforts on behalf of legislators and members of parliament as is the case with the hon. member's bill that he has taken over from the former member, Chris Axworthy.

We would hope that the use of technology for such a nefarious and extremely damaging cause would be curbed at every step. The hon. member is correct in pointing out that children are particularly vulnerable because of the prominence of computers in schools and in homes.

Children routinely communicate with unknown individuals over the Internet using chat sites. This new mode of communication can be extremely damaging because the luring provisions often lead to meetings or physical confrontations where the child is unbeknownst to the pedophile. Rendezvous may take place at a certain point with a known pedophile where an individual may embark on a terrible act of sexual aggression or physical violence. For that very reason we are optimistic that this type of legislation would help curb that type of activity.

Coupled with the bill is the important qualifier that without giving police the resources to do the follow up, without working with Internet service providers to ensure that there is policing of this network of communication, the bill would not accomplish its goals. Therefore we hope the government would be prepared to put money where the bill is and provide police with special funding, if necessary, to ensure that this type of communication which can have such grave implications for children is curbed.

Criminal Law Amendment Act (2001)Government Orders

3:25 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

Is the House ready for the question?

Criminal Law Amendment Act (2001)Government Orders

3:25 p.m.

Some hon. members

Question.

Criminal Law Amendment Act (2001)Government Orders

3:25 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

The House has heard the terms of the motion. Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion?

Criminal Law Amendment Act (2001)Government Orders

3:25 p.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

(Motion agreed to, bill read the third time and passed)

The House resumed from October 5 consideration of the motion that Bill C-35, an act to amend the Foreign Missions and International Organizations Act, be read the second time and referred to a committee, and of the motion that the question be now put.

Foreign Missions and International Organizations ActGovernment Orders

3:25 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Scott Reid Canadian Alliance Lanark—Carleton, ON

Mr. Speaker, there is nothing quite like a two week break in the middle of an impromptu speech to allow one to gather one's thoughts. I had the opportunity over the two week break to spend a bit of time curled up with the material and actually read the bill, something I had not done at the time of my first comments on it. It was fascinating reading. I am glad it is a short bill, unlike Bill C-36.

I will confine my remarks to clause 5 which deals with police powers and freedom of assembly. I will deal with some of the issues raised by these provisions.

When dealing with the question public assemblies we can start with the notion of an assembly of a small number of people for an innocuous purpose and work our way up to something which is a threat to public order and safety. There is a spectrum or range of actions but I will go through the bill and lay out some of the stages to make a point that relates to section 5.

The least aggressive or least intrusive form of public assembly is a gathering of people to discuss political action. The general public may not even be aware of it. This is the most clearly understood form of freedom of association and the one most clearly in need of fundamental protection.

Moving up the scale a bit, one may imagine a gathering which aims to draw attention to a concern or grievance but which is known about only by those who choose to pay attention. It may be a voluntary gathering to promote public awareness but only those involved in the issue would pay much attention.

Bumping it up a bit more, one might see a slightly more forceful gathering to draw attention to an issue. Perhaps people would gather in a public place where they know others would see them and where they would expect to be reported on the news and draw the attention of the public to their cause. Under normal circumstances this is both defensible and admirable.

Moving on from that, a gathering could draw attention through some form of preapproved and consensual interference with the regular routine of business; for example, a demonstration for which a permit has been received. A street could be closed off and the demonstrators could move down the street and disrupt the normal flow of affairs, but in a manner understood and accepted by those in positions of authority.

Provisions are written into municipal laws to permit this sort of thing. Indeed, sometimes it is ritualized in the form of political events we hold on a regular basis. What comes to mind is Remembrance Day when traffic is closed off in part of the downtown core so we can honour our fallen soldiers through a political action.

Moving it up a bit more, we might see an action or demonstration that directly interferes with the conduct of regular life in a way that is not fully consensual and does not have everyone on board. An example might be a picket outside factory gates which is not merely for the purpose of handing out leaflets but for obstructing the flow of traffic in and out. As used to happen in the United States, a demonstration may block the entrance to a prison and thereby make the carrying out of an execution more difficult. This slides over the edge into a bit of illegality but is not as serious as some of the examples that will follow.

Some demonstrations damage property. These are sometimes connected with strikes, strike breaking activity and some political demonstrations. A bit higher on the scale are demonstrations or gatherings that threaten personal security and safety. These move into what could be described as riots.

Finally, at the extreme end of the spectrum we may find forms of demonstration or collective action that threaten life. This is clearly the kind of public demonstration for which there can be no toleration in society.

The traditional legal description and manner of dealing with such assemblies can be found in sections 63, 64, 65 and 66 of the criminal code. I will read part of that if I might. Section 63(1) reads:

An unlawful assembly is an assembly of three or more persons who, with intent to carry out any common purpose, assemble in such a manner or so conduct themselves when they are assembled as to cause persons in the neighbourhood of the assembly to fear, on reasonable grounds, that they

(a) will disturb the peace tumultuously; or

(b) will by that assembly needlessly and without reasonable cause provoke other persons to disturb the peace tumultuously.

Subsection (2) states:

Persons who are lawfully assembled may become an unlawful assembly if they conduct themselves with a common purpose in a manner that would have made the assembly unlawful if they had assembled in that manner for that purpose.

Section 64 goes from unlawful assembly to imagine the stage of the spectrum I described as a riot:

A riot is an unlawful assembly that has begun to disturb the peace tumultuously.

The law then anticipates different punishments for those who participate in a riot or unlawful assembly. Section 65 states:

Every one who takes part in a riot is guilty of an indictable offence and liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding two years.

Section 66 refers to those who participate in unlawful assembly. It states:

Every one who is a member of an unlawful assembly is guilty of an offence punishable on summary conviction.

The law has traditionally made a distinction between lawful and unlawful assembly. As members will notice, individuals who participate in lawful assembly are not merely not punished by law; their rights to assemble freely are protected by law. The charter of rights and, before it, the bill of rights clearly laid out such protections. The American bill of rights also lays out protections for lawful and peaceable assemblies.

We see a range, then, from completely legitimate and protected actions which the government may not interfere with to those which the government must necessarily interfere with for the benefit of society. This is a spectrum.

The law takes into account that at the same place and time there may be people who are legally demonstrating in a manner that is protected by the law and the constitution; people who are engaged in unlawful assembly and are subject to summary conviction; and people who are engaged in riotous behaviour and could be punished by up to two years in prison. This could all be going on at the same place at the same time.

The law is designed to provide incentives so that those who are assembled lawfully do not choose to move into an unlawful assembly and those who are engaged in unlawful assembly may resist the temptation to slide into riotous behaviour.

In general these are pretty good practices. They are longstanding conventions in the law and have served our society, American society and other societies in our legal tradition very well indeed.

I will turn from these general comments to clause 5 of the bill under consideration today. I will read it if I might. Clause 5 would amend section 10 of another act and make the following additions. It starts at subsection 10.1(1):

The Royal Canadian Mounted Police has the primary responsibility to ensure the security for the proper functioning of any intergovernmental conference in which two or more states participate, that is attended by persons granted privileges and immunities under this Act and to which an order made or continued under this Act applies.

Subsection 10.1 (2) states:

For the purpose of carrying out its responsibilities under subsection (1), the Royal Canadian Mounted Police may take appropriate measures, including controlling, limiting or prohibiting access to any area to the extent and in a manner that is reasonable in the circumstances.

Subsection 10.1 (3) states:

The powers referred to in subsection (2) are set out for greater certainty and shall not be read as affecting the powers that peace officers possess at common law or by virtue of any other federal or provincial Act or regulation.

This would include the earlier acts I have read.

This part of the law as I understand it is intended as a response to the kind of anti-globalization demonstrations and actions that took place in Quebec City, and before that, outside our jurisdiction, at the so-called battle of Seattle. Demonstrators at the Seattle conference a couple of years ago engaged in a range of actions from peaceful protests, to what is the American version of unlawful assembly, up to what everyone would agree was riotous behaviour with full battle gear in some cases, gas masks, bricks and all kinds of paraphernalia that allowed them to be quite disruptive and violent.

Looking at the example of Quebec City which is directly relevant to this part, I have some friends, including the man who ran against me for the nomination in Lanark--Carleton and with whom I have remained on very good terms, who were in Quebec City and protested against globalization in a peaceful manner. However there were others who were engaged in the worst sort of violent behaviour. Policemen were struck by bricks. Private property owners had their property destroyed as part of these unlawful protests.

There was a range between brick throwing hoodlums and those who were there acting under the protection of our constitution. We should be quite specific that the goal of those who were on the violent margin of all that was to have the effect of causing so much chaos at one of these assemblies that it would become impossible to carry on their function. What is going on is the assumption that they cannot win the debate against globalization, or whatever the issue happens to be, through the normal democratic means, that they cannot do it by convincing people through democratic, open and legal assemblies and therefore they will use those as a cover for illegal actions. That is reprehensible. To the extent that the legislation deals with that, it probably is a positive thing.

I note that clause 5 makes an attempt to deal with this by stating that the RCMP clearly will be in charge of security at all such conferences. The logic here is that in Seattle for example the local police were in charge of security. They had no idea what was coming. They had no specialized training for it and in addition they had no practice for that sort of thing. At first they underreacted which allowed the city to be put into chaos. Then they overreacted and beat up people who were completely innocent, dragged away people who had done nothing wrong along with those who had, and as a result were able to create sympathy for the illegal protesters in a manner that surely was completely unintentional. To this extent this part of the legislation probably is positive.

The one great caveat that has to be put on all of this is that the Royal Canadian Mounted Police unfortunately is becoming increasingly a politicized agency. This is done because the commissioner of the RCMP has the status of a deputy minister and effectively is now part of the regular civil service. This is a problem that generally is true in our semi-independent agencies in government. It is a very unfortunate thing. We saw the interference of Jean Carle for example in what was going on in Vancouver at the APEC conference five years ago.

It seems to me what would give greater security here would be if this particular legislation or other legislation were to try and re-establish the kinds of separation between the executive government and the political masters in the Liberal Party who do have a certain stake in ensuring that justice is not administered fairly. It is unfortunate that this is occurring. It could be corrected. With goodwill on that side of the House and in the government it would be entirely possible.

Foreign Missions and International Organizations ActGovernment Orders

3:40 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Brian Pallister Canadian Alliance Portage—Lisgar, MB

Mr. Speaker, given the catcalling from the other side, I am surprised there were no questions, but I will pose a question.

The member has found the bill riveting reading. Many of the contents of the bill, although the government has labelled them as housekeeping items, have certain consequences and certain resulting impacts.

The member alluded in his comments to the motivation of the bill perhaps being, in part at least, the government's concerns as a result of the APEC inquiry which cost the Canadian taxpayers in excess of $10 million. That resulted in a commissioner's resignation and tremendous delays. I think that aroused a lot of concerns among Canadians that perhaps there was a little too much political influence being exercised in terms of the RCMP's conduct, not specific to that event solely but in other respects as well. All of us recognize the vital importance of an independent police force and the RCMP of course with its worldwide reputation is one we are all proud of as Canadians.

Perhaps the member would like to put some comments on the record as far as his concerns or ideas around the RCMP. It might be of benefit to Canadians if we did a better job of separating the potential, at least, for political influence intermingling with the decisions our police forces should be making solely on the basis of facts and the investigative work they do.

Foreign Missions and International Organizations ActGovernment Orders

3:40 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Scott Reid Canadian Alliance Lanark—Carleton, ON

Mr. Speaker, my hon. colleague has cabinet level experience in the province of Manitoba with a variety of matters. Having dealt with his own cabinet colleagues in the administration of government, he perhaps has more expertise than I do on some of these things.

With his permission, if I could broaden it and deal with the whole question of the politicization of nominally independent agencies, perhaps I could deal with the thematic base of his question.

There is a problem with the politicization of independent agencies in this country that is unlikely to occur when we look at our neighbours to the south. I think the reason is that the Americans have a system of government in which the executive is clearly separated from the legislative branch. The legislative branch in turn has some independent control over selection for the judiciary, which means that the judiciary is also completely and fully independent. Appointments tend to be made with some legislative control as well. This is something that is absent here.

The governor in council always appoints people who are satisfactory to the Prime Minister. Moreover these appointments are made without any kind of outside input except that which the government of the day finds permissible and acceptable. We can see this most dramatically perhaps with the whole question of the ethics counsellor.

If the member for Malpeque is really interested in what I feel about these things, I would encourage him to stay here tonight. I have a late show question and we will go on at great length on that subject under the new rules.

As an example, the ethics counsellor is not in any way independent. Of course the promise that was made during the 1993 election was that there would be an independent ethics commissioner. There are similar problems with the chief of defence staff, who is given a bureaucratic rank as a deputy minister. We see the separation and independence that is given to agencies being eroded. This was our protection and our version of the kinds of protections that are built into the divided powers of the American system. That is where the problem is coming from.

How could that be overcome? Giving parliament genuine control over the choice of people placed in these kinds of positions may solve this problem. For example, the election of the Speaker has produced a genuinely independent Speaker. The questions that used to arise as to the independence of speakers in past parliaments, going back to the 1970s and 1980s, no longer exist. That is because the Speaker is clearly an independent agent elected and responsible to the House.

If elections were taken in a similar manner, and I am just throwing this out as a possible solution, we may see that this would provide some kind of protection or ratification perhaps of someone who has been nominated by the government through an independent vote in the House. That kind of thing might genuinely produce the kind of freedom from political interference in a variety of these areas which is currently lacking.

I look forward to any questions particularly from the member for Malpeque.

Foreign Missions and International Organizations ActGovernment Orders

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Wayne Easter Liberal Malpeque, PE

Mr. Speaker, I am really concerned by the remarks the member made which make serious implications toward the RCMP. As the member for Portage--Lisgar has said, the RCMP is one of the most respected forces around the world.

To suggest that there was political influence in British Columbia at that time is not what the APEC inquiry found. I am concerned that the member is speaking in a way to not let the facts get in the way of a good story. I am not surprised about that from the official opposition.

Could the member lay out the specific sections of the APEC inquiry that substantiate the claims he is making in the House?