Debates of Oct. 29th, 2001

Supply

[Pauline Picard, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I am happy to add my voice to those of my colleagues calling upon the government to review its international aid policy with a view to substantially increasing the funds available for Canadian humanitarian aid, particularly in the context of the military interventions in Afghanistan, and to increasing the level of its aid for development to 0.7% of GDP, as recommended by the United Nations.

There are at least two reasons for increasing the assistance to developing countries.

The first one is essentially ethical in nature. Canada is a rich country enjoying a certain measure of comfort and economic security which make developing countries envious. We in the western world are considered as privileged, rich people. The tragic events of September 11 have severely affected our economy and are forcing us to review our forecasts. But that is nothing compared to the situation that poor countries are faced with.

Does that mean that Canada must review the part of its budget concerning international assistance in order to increase it? Most agencies working in this area agree with us that Canada must do so.

We in the Bloc Quebecois believe that Canada has not lived up to its humanitarian responsibilities. It appears this government is not responding adequately to expressed needs.

Proportionally Canada ranks 18 out of 22 donor countries for international aid. We are among the least generous countries in the world. That was enough for the head of Rights and Democracy, Mr. Allmand, to urge the Canadian government to increase its foreign aid budget.

Let us take a closer look. Recently the United Nations asked for $900 million Canadian to help some 7 million Afghans whose survival depends on international aid. So far just over 11% has been collected. Since September 11, Canada's share has reached $16 million. We must do more.

Over the last decade, Canada has contributed $150 million in aid to Afghan refugees and Afghanistan. In view of the prosperity Canada has known over the past eight years, this is not enough, not to mention unacceptable.

In the meantime, other countries are showing us the way. In 1995, Canada ranked sixth in terms of international aid. However, last year the British government increased its aid by 35%. This increase was 22% in Belgium and Sweden, and 10% in the Netherlands.

According to media reports, even if our 2001-02 humanitarian aid budget were increased by $45 million over last year to $2.6 billion, we would still be investing 20% less than 10 years ago when the Liberals came to power. This is unacceptable.

Our participation has greatly deteriorated. We are lagging far behind, especially in view of the many years of prosperity we have experienced. The government might want to argue that since 1990 its efforts have been hampered by the need to make substantial budget cuts. However the Prime Minister himself acknowledged that Canada should do better in the future, but nothing concrete has been announced yet in this regard.

Of course the Minister for International Cooperation is reviewing Canada's processes with a view to providing more effective international assistance. But that does not change the facts. The government is miles away from the target set by the UN, which is a contribution of 0.7% of the GDP. By increasing the budget by $1.6 billion over the next four years, we will increase our contribution to 0.35% only, or half our commitment as a signatory to the UN convention.

Concerning the events of September 11, Canada wishes to maintain its influence in the international arena. The Minister of External Affairs himself came to this conclusion. So, what is the government waiting for?

This minister admitted that Canada has a good reputation but that it cannot live up to its reputation. We all know that. Within the context of any realistic foreign policy, it is crucial to look at the gap that is growing between rich and poor in the world.

Let us not forget the facts: in 1993, the Liberals promised to contribute no less that 0.7% of Canada's GDP to international assistance. Seven years later, this same Liberal government is devoting only one-quarter of one per cent of the GDP to international assistance.

The need to increase this assistance is very real and urgent. In a few weeks, Ottawa will host an important meeting of the World Bank and the International Monetary Fund. The events of September 11 and their impact, particularly on the poor, will be at the heart of the discussions. The reduction of the debt of disadvantaged countries will surely be a focus of attention.

It is high time that the government re-evaluated the situation. It has enough flexibility to increase its aid program. We have the necessary resources, since the surplus forecast for the end of the year is over $10 billion.

But most of all, we have to increase international aid because many people are condemning the growing gap between the rich and the poor. We have to send a clear message. When we talk about fighting poverty, we can walk the talk.

It is important to act right now. Afghan women and children have been suffering the horrors of war for much too long and the bombing their country has faced since the beginning of the allied retaliation is putting them into a very difficult situation.

Allow me to come back for a moment to the reform of the Canadian International Development Agency. The planned reform is well accepted by the non- governmental organizations specializing in international co-operation but there are still some reservations.

The Canadian Council for International Cooperation, which represents more than a 100 non-governmental organizations, does not support the action recommended by CIDA, which would rather fully subscribe to the World Bank global approach. In fact, the council is concerned that this could lead to a reduction in the level of aid given to the most disadvantaged populations, thus diminishing the importance of Canada as a donor.

Canadian international co-operation organizations have expressed some reservations and are concerned about some major issues in the proposed reform:

CIDA would redefine its mission to include Canada's strategic interests...by extrapolating trade interests.

History tends to show that trade interests and human rights do not go together well.

Furthermore, the marginalization of civil society organizations, which have largely contributed to democratic development and the solidarity—

These organizations would simply implement policies set by governments.

The World Bank and the International Monetary Fund see the integration of poor countries into the market system as the remedy for the planet's ills. By contrast, many stakeholders in international solidarity do not share this vision. The Women's Network, among others, claims that the World Bank and the International Monetary Fund are responsible for the continuing poverty and its increase in the world.

In closing, the effect of increasing poverty is that the production of wealth is up against its opposite, the factors of destruction. Among these factors is terrorism driven by revolutionary ambitions of changing the system. What can we do? Fight at all costs the profitability of terrorism, which would have the effect of relegating world security and peace to a position of secondary importance.

We must thoroughly re-examine the contemporary world order and, thus, seek world justice. We must prevent the use of terrorism as a weapon for political purposes and, of course, eliminate poverty in the world.

[Robert Lanctôt, Bloc, Châteauguay, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I commend my colleague from the Bloc Quebecois, and I would like her comments on this.

Should Canada not re-evaluate its way of doing things in matters of foreign policy?

Clearly, the world has changed. Canada is not the only country that must change its foreign policy. The cold war has just ended. From now on, the only thing that matters is trade. The agreements signed in China are an example of this. We only take care of the trade aspect, without going beyond it.

Perhaps we should also talk of the human rights before making the decision to trade with another country. We could re-evaluate our approach and consider another foreign policy instead of insisting on signing a trade agreement and forgetting everything else. If we can make money with a country, we go ahead and trade with it.

Should we not consider something else? I give human rights as an example because there could be something other than trade. I would like to hear what my colleague has to say about this.

[Pauline Picard, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I thank the member for his comment and for his question.

I agree with him completely that it is vital that foreign policy be reviewed and that there must be a greater focus on human rights. Everything would seem to be inter dependant.

We see this in CIDA's new reform. With all due respect for the minister, who is making a great effort, CIDA's policy must not be strictly trade oriented.

This opening across borders must not be allowed to fall into the hands of the large multinationals, which is what seems to be happening right now. We see this in the G-7 countries. In addition, there are non-government bodies infiltrating the policies of these countries. These are huge multinationals, which are taking over and having a very destructive effect on all the people of the world.

Some direction is vital. We must pay more attention to the gap between the rich and the poor and not neglect developing countries, which can be used by the large multinationals in trading activities which ignore human rights.

[André Harvey, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Transport]

Mr. Speaker, I remember the speech by the member for Joliette, earlier this afternoon, when he stressed how important it was not only to send food to the Afghan people but also to teach them to feed themselves. This is an example that everyone knows.

I think we have to admit that the bottom line is that the international humanitarian aid effort by a number of countries has not amounted to much. This does not go back five or ten years, but a hundred years. For several decades now, Canada has participated in the international humanitarian aid effort.

In the event of a budget increase, I would like to know if the issue of poverty in the world would be solved? Could the member confirm to us that this is strictly a budget issue, or is this a case of inappropriate action? In the event of a budget increase, should it be done through public organizations, or should we go through the private sector, which would give these people more opportunities to participate in the marketing process?

The member greatly criticized the International Monetary Fund and the World Bank. I would like to know what the main lines of action will be in the years to come. What should we do to be more—

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bélair)]

I have to interrupt the hon. member, if we want the hon. member for Drummond to answer.

[Pauline Picard, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

Mr. Speaker, what I can say, is that it is also a question of money. I am not saying that it is only a question of money, but it is also a question of money, of distribution of wealth.

I am somewhat surprised to hear the member say that I criticized the IMF and the World Bank. I mostly wanted to question their current role and to warn the G-7 countries that are meeting to discuss world organizations. That was what I intended.

Yes, wealth needs to be distributed if we want to avoid situations like the one in Afghanistan right now.

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bélair)]

It is my duty pursuant to Standing Order 38 to inform the House that the question to be raised tonight at the time of adjournment is as follows: the hon. member for Lakeland, National Defence.

[Carole-Marie Allard, Liberal, Laval East, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I would like to inform you that I will be sharing my time with the member for Ottawa--Orléans.

The best guarantee of a good quality of life is democracy, as the ravages of current wars demonstrate. What Afghanistan needs, more than short term humanitarian assistance, is a government that will respect human rights and treat women as equals, so that children will grow up happy and healthy.

It is easy for our friends opposite to ask for, and expect, the moon. They know they will never form a majority. The Bloc is asking for a substantial increase in the funds allocated for Canada's humanitarian assistance, particularly in the context of the military intervention in Afghanistan.

Governing is about planning. I believe Canada has an excellent track record in the world. Our country provides assistance through CIDA, the Canadian International Development Agency. This organization is very active and generous with its aid because it is what must be done in terms of ethics, justice and human solidarity.

CIDA's approach is careful, which is good. CIDA's mandate is to support developing countries in reducing poverty and contribute to a safer world, one that is fairer and more prosperous.

As we know, this mandate was the result of broad consultations in 1995. In 1996, CIDA approved a policy on the reduction of poverty aimed at encouraging countries to work on their self-determination rather than dependency.

My question today is this: should we link our foreign aid to our country's long term interests while acknowledging that extreme poverty must be eliminated?

For some years now there has been debate on the question of whether CIDA should concentrate on a limited number of countries. We are all aware of foreign policy pressures and pressure from the opposition for us to distribute our resources widely. The discussion is open. What countries take priority? Today we are told it is Afghanistan.

I think we as a government must ask ourselves this and seek to find an answer, saying that what must be done is to target our international aid so that it will be more efficient and effective.

This is not an easy answer to come up with. In the case of Afghanistan, CIDA has provided $150 million over the past 10 years to help lessen the suffering of refugees and internally displaced persons . These people have been hard hit by 20 years of conflict and 3 years of drought, which have devastated their country.

As a Canadian, I find it extremely painful to see the extent to which the people of that country are downtrodden and destitute.

It took the events of September 11 and the destruction of the twin WTC towers to focus world attention on Afghanistan. Why is that? Because terrorists can hide out there, with the complicity of the reigning Taliban regime.

What we have discovered in Afghanistan since the cameras of the entire world have been focussed on it, is that there is a reign of terror. Women have no rights. They can be beaten or stoned and their suffering is immense. A large percentage of the population is illiterate. I think that must suit the Taliban, as it makes it easier to control the population.

Canada provides Afghanistan with an average of $12 million yearly. These funds go to support numerous NGOs and UN agencies. The breakdown is as follows: CARE, $3 million; World Food Program, $1.7 million; International Committee of the Red Cross, the UN Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs, and so on. We have a whole list.

The minister responsible for CIDA recently announced a further contribution of $10 million to help deal with the immediate needs of Afghan refugees and displaced populations in the area. This brings to $16 million Canada's contribution for Afghan refugees since September 11, 2001.

I am pleased to learn that Canada spends about $21 million a year in Pakistan and that the objective of the program continues to be the reduction of poverty. For example, we give $12 million through a governance program to promote democracy at the local level and to increase public participation in local affairs. The emphasis is on women's participation.

Humanitarian aid is much more likely to succeed in poor countries if women are involved. CIDA deserves praise for having been doing so for a number of years.

Let us not forget that Canada's wealth is not unlimited. Let us also not forget our own children. Poverty exists in our country too. There are children who go to school on an empty stomach. It was found that serving breakfast in some schools increased attendance by 30%.

Here poverty is more hidden but nevertheless very real. In Laval, on l'île Jésus, which is located in the riding of Laval East, there is a volunteer centre with a very long list of families that need food.

I am thinking of one of my constituents, Louise Beauchamp, the director of the St-Claude soup kitchen in Laval-des-Rapides. She knows about the plight of some residents of Laval.

In Saint-François, which is located in my riding, many seniors would not eat regularly if it were not for the visits of volunteers from the meal on wheels program.

In conclusion, it is true that our government is committed to investing more resources to strengthen democracies, justice and social stability in the world. We also want to reduce poverty and eliminate the debt of poor countries.

For example, we proposed a moratorium on the repayment of the debt of 11 of the 17 most indebted poor countries to allow them to invest in critical areas for their people.

It is not true that we are not taking action. We are. We are doing our best and we must prepare to help the Afghan people give themselves a government that will be representative of the population once the war is over.

I said at the beginning that democracy is the best option for people. Again, Afghanistan needs a government that will respect human rights and treat women as equal persons.

[Yves Rocheleau, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I would like to read a letter sent to me by a student in secondary I at the École secondaire des Pionniers, in my riding. The letter was about the conflict that is going on right now. I will then ask my Liberal colleague what she thinks of it. The letter reads as follows:

I am writing you this letter to suggest to you not to go to war but rather to give money to help people instead of hurting them.

You could give money to provide food, shelter, education, medical care and clothing to those poor Afghan refugees who had nothing to do with the events that occurred in the United States.

The other day, I saw a report about Afghan refugees. They have practically nothing to eat but bread. Winter is coming and many of them do not even have shelter. They do not have warm blankets. Two or three children die of hunger or of disease every day.

You could help them by giving them good food, water, medicine and a roof over their heads.

I hope this letter will make you think.

I wanted to read this letter to my colleague opposite. What does she intend to do? Does she think that her government's attitude, in terms of humanitarian aid, is satisfactory? And, finally, will she support our motion?

[Carole-Marie Allard, Liberal, Laval East, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I am quite sure the hon. member on the other side of the House will be able to inform the person in his riding that the Canadian government has already gone a long way toward helping the people of Afghanistan. Indeed, we are setting up all kinds of measures to relieve these people, whose government supports terrorism.

Therefore, I think it is very important that each and every member does his share to speak the truth in their ridings.

[Monte Solberg, Canadian Alliance, Medicine Hat, AB]

Mr. Speaker, this is a very serious issue. According to the UN there are 7.5 million people affected by events in Afghanistan. I should not say affected by events because it is certainly not just the war; people in that country were in terrible poverty even before the war began.

If all of a sudden the federal government came up with the extra $5 billion the Bloc is asking for, which of course is not very likely and would put us into a deficit position, is it not a fact that we would be unable to use a lot of that money very effectively in Afghanistan because of the war that is going on there? At this point we can help somewhat with refugee camps in Pakistan.

Even the UN has asked for $900 million and other countries will be contributing. A lot of the money the Bloc is asking for obviously could not possibly be used in Afghanistan right now. The 0.7% target that it has suggested is really an arbitrary figure. It is a UN figure but it is quite arbitrary and in this context all that money could not possibly be used to help out in Afghanistan.

[Carole-Marie Allard, Liberal, Laval East, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I think the hon. member raised the real question. In fact it is easy for the Bloc to make that request knowing it will never form the government.

I think it is the Canadian government's responsibility to take things into consideration and to ensure that money is spent in a rational wa, to keep our finances in order.

Poverty exists in this country too and it is very important to ensure the survival of our communities and, of course, to help the international communities facing wars and conflicts. However I believe we have to act in consultation with other countries and to avoid giving more than we can.

[Eugène Bellemare, Liberal, Ottawa—Orléans, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I would like to congratulate the member for Lac-Saint-Jean--Saguenay for his motion, which I would like to read to the House. The motion asks, and I quote:

That this House call upon the government to review its international aid policy with a view to substantially increasing the funds available for Canadian humanitarian aid, particularly in the context of the military interventions in Afghanistan, and to increasing the level of its aid for development to 0.7% of GDP, as recommended by the United Nations.

I had the pleasure of acting as parliamentary secretary to the Minister for International Cooperation for two years, between 1999 and 2001. I witnessed the fact that the minister is dedicated to helping those in need and wanted to increase humanitarian assistance. Formerly, CIDA's assistance was mostly focused on building infrastructure, such as bridges and dams. More and more now, it is directed toward humanitarian assistance.

Last year the Minister for International Cooperation announced that her department and the Canadian International Development Agency would strive to direct their programs toward the four priority areas of social development: health and nutrition, basic education, the fight against HIV and AIDS, and child protection. I would like to congratulate the minister for this new direction.

I am pleased to support the member for Lac-Saint-Jean--Saguenay in our common objectives for international co-operation. Through our Prime Minister, Canada has committed to fulfilling the development objectives for the millennium.

These objectives include access to education for all boys and girls around the world, reducing the number of children who die of preventable diseases, promoting gender equality and eliminating extreme poverty and hunger.

Canadians are concerned about what is happening to children on the planet. What is being done, or rather what is not being done now to protect these children will have a catastrophic effect on their lives and a severe effect on our own future.

The Canadian International Development Agency, CIDA, takes these concerns very seriously. It has developed an action plan for children, children who require special protection, children who are often exploited, abused and discriminated against. Its plan is aimed at all boys and girls growing up in the poorest countries of the world and who are directly threatened by the most serious dangers.

With this plan of action, CIDA is launching a new and better approach, which places Canada on the frontline of world action for the protection of children. The agency does not limit itself to answering the needs of children who are usually forgotten, it also wants to ensure that the rights of those children are recognized and respected. Respect for the rights of children is the key to a real and sustainable change in the life of those children and communities. This is positive action for development, an good way to eliminate the root causes of poverty and exclusion.

Children who have to work and who are affected by war are those who benefit from the initiatives of CIDA for children protection. Those initiatives are a complement to the agency's efforts for all children in other areas, namely in health and nutrition, basic education, the fight against HIV and AIDS. CIDA has committed $122 million for the protection of children under a five year action plan.

Since the world summit for children, which was held in 1990, Canada has taken the lead of the children protection movement.

We have also played a key role in the development of international agreements on the rights of children, whether it is for children forced to work, sexually abused children or children forced to become soldiers. When the government hosted the international conference on children affected by war last autumn in Winnipeg, we pioneered by inviting children to play an active part in the debates and decisions.

The government has also obtained the support of the retired Lieutenant General Roméo Dallaire as a special adviser to the Minister for International Cooperation on the issue of children affected by war. The practical experience of the general will be most useful to CIDA, in terms of its program and will allow us to bring this question to the attention of the public.

With the House now debating our overall program of humanitarian and development assistance for countries less privileged than ours, including Afghanistan and other countries in southern and central Asia, we must ensure that the emphasis remains on children.

The future of societies torn apart by war lies in the ability of communities and parents to pass on to their children values such as peace, tolerance and respect for others, even if these children have often witnessed horrific acts. The success of these societies will have an impact on our own safety and stability. These people deserve our support and our assistance.

Canada should be able to provide greater support for this sort of initiative. This is why we will be supporting the motion before us today.

[Larry Bagnell, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

Mr. Speaker, my colleague from the Bloc mentioned a letter received from a constituent. I want to go on record as saying that I got a number of e-mails from Yukoners who also supported the provision of grain and other support to the people of Afghanistan and that region. I am sure they will be happy today hearing the support from the government and many members of parliament. We could continue providing that aid and increasing it in the future so that we remove some of the root causes of poverty and help those who are most destitute.

Would my colleague care to comment on anything he did not get a chance to say in his speech?

[Eugène Bellemare, Liberal, Ottawa—Orléans, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the comments of the member for Yukon. What the member opposite brought, a letter from a pupil in his riding, is very apropos since we are speaking about childhood.

We have witnessed some truly heart-rending events, which began on September 11. And now we have television images of what is going on in Afghanistan. Canada's children are seeing these images and talking about them with their friends. Classroom discussions are being held and this is as it should be.

Unfortunately the events now unfolding in Afghanistan are shocking. They bring tears to the eyes. We see children in distress, children dying of hunger.

I appreciate the fact that our children are sending us letters telling us that they want peace. I find this extremely promising for the future. One day these children will grow up and they will have intestinal fortitude. They will want to help their fellow citizens, not just those in their municipality, in their province and in their country, but around the world.

[Monte Solberg, Canadian Alliance, Medicine Hat, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I will be brief, although I would like to say more. First, I simply want to say that people on all sides of the House are shocked by the poverty in Afghanistan. It is truly a crime.

My question has to do with something the member said early on in his speech when he talked about poverty around the world and the people affected by it.

Does the member think it is appropriate that Canada still levies tariffs on least developed countries for things like textiles and food, remembering that textiles and food are often the only things these countries can produce?

[Eugène Bellemare, Liberal, Ottawa—Orléans, ON]

Mr. Speaker, the member's question is very pertinent. I have no doubt that the government is now looking at this.

[Paul Crête, Bloc, Kamouraska—Rivière-Du-Loup—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I thank you for the opportunity to take part in this debate. I believe it is appropriate at this time to remind the House of the content of the motion moved by the Bloc Quebecois and which seems to be well received by the majority of government members. I believe the mere fact of reading it might convince people like the member for Laval-Est, who did not seemed to be swayed by our arguments. The motion reads as follows:

That this House call upon the government to review its international aid policy with a view to substantially increasing the funds available for Canadian humanitarian aid, particularly in the context of the military interventions in Afghanistan, and to increasing the level of its aid for development to 0.7% of GDP, as recommended by the United Nations.

Since the beginning of the day we have seen that the government supports this proposal. I believe it is important for this debate to take place today. It is equally important to have firm support. This motion is votable. In this regard, the Bloc Quebecois played its part well in ensuring that the House would vote on this issue. We tried to get the government to hold a vote on our military involvement but we failed so far. However on the issue of international aid there will be a vote. We will be able to see where people hang their hat.

I believe the Canadian government must make amends in this matter. According to an OECD report, Canada ranks 17th out of 22 OECD countries contributing to international aid. We only contribute 0.25% of our GDP to international aid whereas Denmark's share is over 1%, the Netherlands, 0.82%, Sweden, 0.80%, Norway, 0.80%. A lot of smaller countries invest much more in this area than Canada.

We know that international aid does not only mean aid for refugees and emergency assistance. It also means aid for developing countries so that they too can create wealth and give a future to their youth. Very often it can be an important tool for preventing situations like the terrorist attacks we witnessed recently.

We cannot say for sure that if humanitarian aid had been higher those attacks could have been prevented. However it can be said that when wealth is distributed more adequately, situations like those terrorist attacks can be prevented. Humanitarian aid can help educate people, give them some hope, a chance to have a future. Then they are less receptive to desperate arguments like those expounded by people working for terrorist groups.

The position of the Bloc Quebecois in the present debate is also the position of Canadian non-governmental organizations such as the Association québécoise des organismes de coopération internationale, the Canadian Council for International Cooperation and The North-South Institute. These three associations represent many NGOs and wholeheartedly request that we re-establish the 0.7% objective as soon as possible, just like the Bloc Quebecois is requesting.

Since 1993 the Government of Canada's contributions to international aid have dropped considerably. I think we can draw a parallel with this and how we treat the poorest and less organized in our society.

Since 1993 we have also witnessed significant cuts in employment insurance. We have done the same thing when it comes to international assistance. These are two spheres where people are less organized and less able to defend themselves. Some years ago funding for ACOCI, an organization that raised public awareness about international assistance, was cut. Because of these budget cuts people may have become less aware of this reality in the end. Today that decision has come back to haunt us. We must consider the situation and take real action.

On Wednesday of last week I spoke with a 100 or so students from the Cegep de La Pocatière. There was also a representative from the diocese, a sociologist, a professor from an Arab state and a professor of political science. The questions these young people asked made quite an impact on us. They were concerned about the real effectiveness of the military strikes and their effect on civilian populations but also by the whole issue of international assistance.

Right now, when we are asked whether it makes sense to drop humanitarian assistance over mine fields, we have to say that some blunders in the system should be avoided. At least we can make up for this with medium and long term international assistance by substantially increasing our budget.

The Minister of Finance has said that he will table a budget by early December. While he tells us that security requirements are very important, he should at the same time seriously consider a significant increase in our humanitarian assistance budget.

Our assistance budget stands at 0.25% of the GDP. If we are to send a clear message, it is very important that we set a goal of 0.7% of the GDP and that, as early as December, we say that, over the coming year, we will do something significant and increase substantially our budget so that this will be felt in our various assistance programs. A new attitude is needed from the Canadian government. That way, we will really fulfill our role and we will be in a position to take to task other G-7 countries, which may be the ones not fulfilling their role in this matter.

Right now there are very important problems. We have heard what the hon. member for Trois-Rivières had to say. Children are dying. They will not make it through the winter. Our short term assistance should be increased but so should our long term assistance too.

We will have all the time to discuss the most efficient ways to bring our assistance to those in need. What kind of organization should in be charge? Is CIDA as efficient as it should be? Should we be developing different forms of assistance? These are questions we should ask but those in charge should have adequate means to reach the goals our society has set for itself.

Those actions have not been adopted just out of charity. The member for Joliette spoke earlier of the distribution of wealth in our society. I think it is a splendid and very significant picture. After the Great Depression of the thirties in the United States there was the new deal. It was found that social programs could be created in order to establish a safety net and to ensure that those who were the most affected during a recession or economic slowdown would be protected. These programs were efficient. In the following decades they allowed us to avoid overly negative impacts, rough economic situations and slowdowns.

At the international level, we have to ask the same question. We have to adopt as quickly as possible solutions that will give hope to people in order for those who are in complete deprivation to make it out. At the same time we probably should continue to search for a way to eradicate terrorism through all the means of action possible.

In the meantime, to avoid the development of terrorism, we have to intervene to eliminate at the source the conditions on which it relies: ignorance, illiteracy, destitution, under development. If we eliminate all these conditions and gradually succeed in improving the situation there will be fewer extreme events such as the one we unfortunately witnessed on September 11. This situation did not begin on that day, but is rather the result of an anger which, albeit unacceptable, could be explained globally by an unfair distribution of wealth. We could play an important role to correct it.

In closing, we need a global strategy to act on every aspect of terrorism. One of the ways in which we can play our role as a rich country, is to commit important additional funds.

This is what the Bloc is calling for today. I hope that tomorrow, when we vote, this motion will draw a large consensus which will translate into important new funds in the next budget in early December. That is when we will see if the government has really understood our message.

[Yves Rocheleau, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I am very pleased to take part in this debate because last Friday I experienced a particular situation in my riding.

I had the pleasure of meeting with four students from the Les Pionniers high school. Two are first year students and the other two are enrolled in the IEP, the International Education Program. Their names are Cynthia Lacourcière, Kate Denis, Mathilde Bélanger and Mathieu Hubert, the latter being the president of his class. They were accompanied by Mr. Gérard Garceau, with the campus ministry.

They wanted me to know that 450 students had gathered on Wednesday, October 24, and marched in the streets around the school to demonstrate under the theme “Let's Cultivate Peace”.

That meeting was not only very moving but also very instructive for me. All the more so since first year students wrote some 160 letters, half of them addressed to your humble servant, the member for Trois-Rivières, and the other half addressed to my colleague for Saint-Maurice and Prime Minister of Canada.

These letters show that not only are those students very much aware of and sensitive to the situation, but they are also, like the rest of the people in Quebec and around the world, traumatized and concerned, particularly by Canada's participation in the war. That is especially obvious in the letters addressed to the Prime Minister.

The key themes are “no to war”, “no to armament”, “no to vengeance”, “no to violence”, and “yes to peace and humanitarian aid”, as can be seen in the letters I will quote in the time I have available.

While all of course focus on the same themes, they are all different at the same time.

I will start with this one, a poem in which the student expresses an opinion.

Over there in Afghanistan, the sky lowers darkly. Bombs rain down on the houses. Scarcely a breath of wind Stirs the smoke that billows through the smoldering streets. The Americans smolder still with hatred While people are dying, Even children, innocent children. They cannot go to bed and dream sweet dreams, Dreams that the winds of hope may be blowing when they awake.

Another letter:

Dear Mr. Rocheleau:

I am writing to share my opinion with you. I feel we ought not to join in the war; instead we should be sending people to help the children who are dying of hunger, to care for all those in need of care, and provide them with drinking water and other necessities to build peace between us.

My friends and I are not in favour of this war. Let us say no to violence and war.

Another letter reads as follows:

Dear Mr. Rocheleau:

This is to express my point of view on what is taking place in Afghanistan. I do not want Canada to participate in an offensive, but rather to help people suffering from the consequences of war. I think we should, amongst other things, send medicine and food to help those who are suffering.

Thank you for your patience.

The following letter clearly has a philosophical tone:

Dear Mr. Rocheleau:

Human beings often brag about what they do or what they invent. They describe themselves as the most intelligent living creatures on our planet Earth. However, seeing all that is going on right now, I think that they are slightly off, because when I look at the way animals and plants behave, I find they are more caring for their own kind than humans.

If we gave more thought to our unique planet, we would realize that we are turning it upside down.

I think that man was not created to fight individuals of neighbouring continents but to pursue good deeds.

This is why, in the wake of the events of September 11, I ask you, as a human being, to get involved for the sake of humanity rather than for its suffering, because I tell myself that war can make more innocent victims than guilty victims.

I thank you for taking the time to read this letter.

Another letter reads:

I am writing to you, Mr. Rocheleau, to express my disagreement with Canada's participation in the war against Afghanistan. We can send troops, but they should go not to kill but to take humanitarian assistance to the Afghanis, who are dying of starvation, or to protect them from the American bombing.

This does not mean hurting the United States, but helping them to hit their targets and not civilians. And even if they destroy Osama bin Laden's training camps, bin Laden will retaliate with other terrorist attacks and the army will counter-attack and on and on it will go.

In any case, I hope that you understand why I do not like the war. I also hope that this will change your mind on this decision.

Here again, the letter is in poem form:

In Afghanistan far away, The war gets worse every day. Some are dying Others crying.

Send in soldiers But not to fight. Send them to help, Do what is right, And never regret.

For if you send us The losses would stagger. Think of the death And all who would suffer.

The greatest dream can hardly come true Is peace in the world for me and for you. But all of us must do what we can To bring about this noble plan.

I would remind the House that these are grade eight pupils.

Here, I have a letter that sums up the whole issue perfectly.

I am sending you this short note, Mr. Rocheleau, to tell you this : no to war, no to arms build-up, no to violence.

I am in favor of humanitarian aid for Afghanistan. War has never benefited anyone. Our neighbours to the South should learn tolerance, that if we disagree with them, it does not mean we are against them.

War always brings misery and starvation, and children are the ones who pay the price. I was not put on this Earth to see such misery, but to live an active and peaceful life in harmony with God and my fellow human beings, to respect the other races and religions, not to kill or interfere with other people's liberties, trying to make it work the American way.

What is good for the goose is not necessarily good for the gander. We are put on this Earth to be different from one another; life would be boring if we were all alike.

It goes without saying that I am truly happy to read these testimonies in the House of Commons. Many of them, 160 letters in all, remind us, by the candor of their authors, that children hit it right on the head. I believe these letters speak for themselves. I was really impressed by their quality, sensitivity and interest. When we have doubts about the next generation, about the meaning of collective life and about the responsibilities of citizens, reactions to such an event give me hope for the future.

I will read one last testimony that is more blunt. The writer expresses his ideas in a more straightforward manner. He says:

The attack where a plane crashed into the World Trade Center was masterminded by bin Laden who was trying to provoke us and show us he wants war. But we are stupid enough to wage war against a third world country.

I think this sums up quite well what the government, cabinet and the Prime Minister should consider. I am very proud to see that our youth is in sync with the people of Quebec when it comes to sensitivity.

The latest polls show it: the concerns of Quebecers are quite different from those of the rest of Canada. Again that shows that a sovereign Quebec would have a different voice in the community of nations at the United Nations and humanity would benefit from it.

[Jean Augustine, Liberal, Etobicoke—Lakeshore, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I am splitting my time with the member for Leeds--Grenville.

I am pleased to join in the debate on the motion put forward by the Bloc Quebecois calling upon the federal government to “review its international aid policy with a view to substantially increasing the funds available for Canadian humanitarian aid, particularly in light of military intervention in Afghanistan” and to raise the level of ODA to 0.7% as recommended by the United Nations.

Let me begin by noting that my colleagues on this side of the House support the motion. The events of September 11 have made it crystal clear that Canada and the developed world have an obligation to assist those nations whose populations continue to live in abject poverty. Poverty and its consequences are threats to the stability and the security of nations and to those who are directly impacted by it.

As the Prime Minister, the Minister of National Defence, the Minister of Foreign Affairs and many of the representatives on this side of the House have stated, we will use not only diplomatic and other means but also humanitarian assistance in the fight against international terrorism. It is ever more important to strengthen our resolve to promote sustainable development in every corner of the developing world.

We must help developing countries to provide their populations with access to education and health care, promote and protect rights of children and women, fight HIV-AIDS and eradicate malnutrition, and we must help and encourage them to develop practices of good governance and capacity building which are so necessary for building peaceful and stable democratic societies.

The impoverishment of peoples affects us all. Troubling social realities in one country today can become a challenge for all of us tomorrow. CIDA cannot afford to renege on commitments that Canada has made at UN conferences and in international agreements aimed at addressing issues in international development. This is even more relevant and true in time of crisis and war, as in the case of Afghanistan.

I would like to comment briefly on CIDA's assistance to Afghanistan and on development assistance in the context of HIV-AIDS.

For over 30 years Canada has been working with its international partners and civil society to provide assistance to peoples of the developing world. In recent years, deficit management and fiscal restraints have reduced Canada's ODA envelope, making it impossible to reach the UN target of 0.7% of GDP.

As the member of parliament for Etobicoke--Lakeshore, I, with so many others who work with me in the Canadian Association of Parliamentarians on Population and Development, together with all of our NGO colleagues, have been pressing for Canada to reach that 0.7% of GDP.

However, CIDA and the Government of Canada are taking steps to turn around this trend and to focus development aid in times of limited resources on urgent areas. In the last federal budget, ODA funding increased to the tune of $435 million over three years, providing a clear signal of a return to long term growth in a generous, measured way. The Prime Minister is determined to work with other countries in the G-8 to see poverty reduction and development issues addressed at the next G-8 summit here in Canada.

CIDA has implemented its “Social Development Priorities: A Framework for Action”, which aims to strengthen resources devoted to basic education, health and nutrition, HIV-AIDS and child protection. The agency's cross-Canada consultations to review the government's international aid policy and to strengthen aid effectiveness are testament to the government's commitment to move the development assistance agenda forward.

The situation in Afghanistan is one of urgency. We know that the country was in need of international assistance prior to the military interventions. Afghanistan is one of the world's poorest countries, which has been devastated by drought and civil war.

The UNHCR and the international Red Cross have warned us that ,in light of the present crisis in Afghanistan, they are facing one of the largest humanitarian crises. Thousands of Afghanis are internally displaced and are refugees. They are in need of the basic necessities of life. The people of Afghanistan do not have the protection of a government. They are in this situation due to no fault of their own.

I am pleased that Canada is one of the nations at the forefront providing humanitarian assistance to Afghanistan. Over the past 10 years CIDA provided close to $160 million which has helped to provide food and shelter for Afghanis, remove deadly landmines, fight the spread of disease and educate children, especially girls.

Canada has contributed $16 million to the current humanitarian crisis in Afghanistan. With this funding, we are helping to provide food, basic health care, adequate shelter and safe water. CIDA is working in partnership with the world food program and through Canadian NGOs, such as the Canadian Foodgrains Bank, CARE Canada and the Aga Khan Foundation Canada, to ensure that humanitarian assistance reaches the Afghani people.

It boggles the mind to listen to members of one opposition party talk about waste in CIDA and question the need for CIDA's intervention. Everyone would agree that development assistance helps countries on the road to self-sufficiency and economic prosperity. It is important that any type of foreign aid must be sustainable or else it becomes ineffective over time.

We can ensure that the quality of aid is effective over time by setting benchmarks and targets that would help to determine progress and improve conditions. We must put strategies in place that would encourage countries to meet the needs of their citizens.

Economic prosperity cannot be achieved among developing countries unless there are strong social policies in place. These policies must address the root causes of poverty and the systemic reasons that thwart development.

Encouraging developing countries to meet their own social priorities is most desirable in providing development assistance. Forgiving the debt of heavily indebted poor countries is a positive step in this direction.

I remind members that the Government of Canada was first among the G-8 partners to commit $40 million to the heavily indebted poor countries trust fund in 1999 and has followed through in the 2000 budget with an additional $175 million. As of January 1, 2001 Canada has stopped collecting debt payments from heavily indebted poor countries. They were able to use debt relief savings productively and were developing poverty reduction strategies. This is the way we have to go.

Let me also remind the House that there is a great emergency on our hands that cannot be ignored. That emergency is the spread of HIV-AIDS. The Government of Canada, through CIDA, has been responding to the HIV-AIDS pandemic which threatens to thwart the economic development of developing countries. Fighting HIV-AIDS is one of CIDA's key development priorities.

Last June the United Nations drew our attention to the problem facing the world when it convened a special session on HIV-AIDS and our Prime Minister and members of the G-8 addressed the matter in Genoa. AIDS is wiping out decades of hard won development gains. Thousands of children are being orphaned, threatening the economic survival of nations and communities. The spread of HIV-AIDS is undermining investments in education and human resource development.

Canada is working hard in the fight against HIV-AIDS. The federal government is quadrupling development assistance funding for HIV-AIDS through CIDA's HIV-AIDS action plan. We are at a turning point in the fight against this terrible disease. Now is the time for a substantive and renewed commitment from the entire global community and Canada must be there. Canada is moving forward in its aggressive efforts to address this pandemic through international co-operation.

We therefore support today's motion because, while Canadians can be proud of their country's support for sustainable development, poverty reduction and education of children, it is clear that we can do more.

Our communities expect us to do more. Our communities expect us to reach 0.7% of GDP. I support the motion at this time and ask colleagues from all sides of the House to focus on our responsibility to the rest of the world. As Canadians, we are expected to stand up and be counted.

[Joe Jordan, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to the Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, I find myself in a rather unusual situation as a politician because I can actually speak with some knowledge on this issue.

I congratulate the House for entertaining this motion because we have had approximately 45 to 50 hours of debate in the House dealing specifically with the coalition initiative against terrorism. That is an important item that needs to be discussed. However today's motion brings a semblance of balance to the debate.

If our actions are targeted toward the terrorists, it is incumbent on the partners in the coalition to make sure that they are there on the ground to make sure the civilians in those countries understand not only by language but by action that this is what we intend to do.

I congratulate my colleague from Lac-Saint-Jean--Saguenay for sponsoring this motion. I am comforted that someone at that tender age takes this issue seriously because it is an extremely serious issue. Global poverty is something that we must come to grips with sooner or later. The sooner we do it, the easier the solution will be on everybody.

The reason I prefaced my comments by saying I thought I could speak to this issue is that I was a teacher in my former life and spent a number of years overseas on international projects that CIDA funded. I will target my remarks to those experiences because I get concerned when I hear criticisms about Canada's international development aid policy. I believe that with the experiences I have had I have a right to address some of those misconceptions.

I spent two years on a project in Ethiopia in the 1980s. To bring credibility to my argument, the Liberals were not in power at the time. The development staff on the ground and the embassy personnel were of the highest quality in terms of making sure that Canadian taxpayer money was spent efficiently and in a manner consistent with the objectives and the values underscored in CIDA's documents.

One of the issues that we focus on in international aid as Canadians is the notion of women and development. We have learned that if we are to get at the root causes of poverty, treating the causes as opposed to the symptoms, we must ensure that the women in the country are engaged in any solution that is being proposed. That is an oversimplification, but money spent to increase the capacity of women in countries is money that manifests itself in a higher standard of living for children. Canada makes sure that the projects it undertakes address the issue of women and development. I encourage the government to continue to make that important intervention.

One of the things that struck me in Ethiopia was that a lot of the aid was very politicized. Ethiopia is a strategically located country. Over the years it was important to this country or that country and a lot of money went to Ethiopia. I saw $80,000 tractors at the side of the road because there was no gasoline. One of the things that Canadian aid focuses on is sustainability. We have to be able to sustain development otherwise when the aid runs out the project runs out.

One of the most successful projects I saw was a German one. It developed a very simple prototype for an ox pulled cart based on the rear wheel assembly of a Volkswagen bug because there were thousands of these cars littering the landscape. These were built by the Cubans, interestingly enough. There were no spare parts and no gasoline to run these cars. Sometimes low technology must be used that matches the technology of the country.

Before I leave Africa, one of the proudest moments I had was when I went to one of the water wells and saw it identified as a Canadian project. Another aspect of Canadian development aid relating to the root causes of health is clean water.

Every Canadian can be extremely proud of the fact that we have drilled literally thousands of wells and maintained and trained local personnel to maintain clean water supplies so that the children who drink the water are getting clean water and are not getting viruses and other things from their water which in most cases would end up killing them.

I then spent three years on a CIDA project in Hungary. This was a different situation because one of the things that happened in that country after the fall of the communist economic system was that lawyers previously employed by the state were essentially told to hang out a shingle and make a living. The Canadian government, through CIDA, got involved in training lawyers, and one might ask what would be the reason for that? The reason quite simply was that if we were to open up eastern Europe as a potential market for Canadian companies, then we needed a system and a legal framework there that would minimize risk to Canadian companies.

When I started working on that project I thought it was a tremendously useful strategy that the Canadian government had undertaken. Someone mentioned earlier a simple phrase that rings true: the Canadian development assistance strategy is one where we would rather teach someone to fish as opposed to giving them a fish. As for people who try to suggest in my presence that Canadian foreign aid is just buckets of cash being thrown around with no accountability, I can tell members that those people have had no experience with foreign aid projects, because the accountability measures and processes that are in place are extremely tough.

We focus on prevention. We focus on capacity building. We focus on making sure that women are included in these development projects because that speaks to their sustainability. We are very concerned when looking at the root causes of poverty. One of the issues that Ethiopia faced was that with such dire poverty any cooking going on was being done through cutting down trees for fuel. The deforestation of the area around the city when the big rains would come in August was causing tremendous problems with what arid or tillable land was left. It was Canadian engineers who went over and started setting up systems of pumps for irrigation and workings and having agricultural workers out in the field talking to people about the importance of not engaging in that kind of activity.

As a final point I would also like to say that in my personal experience one of the other advantages to international assistance is that the people who are engaged in it learn just as much as the people at the other end. One of the things that Canada has been criticized for is that we are kind of an island within ourselves and it is very difficult for Canadians to travel. International assistance experiences for students, exchange programs between various universities and faculty exchange programs which CIDA funds are extremely beneficial, not only to the country we are working with but also to the Canadians who participate in these projects.

I will conclude with that point, but to underscore it I want to say that Canadians can be extremely proud, not only of the people we have employed in our international development agencies but also of the direction, the scale and scope of these projects. I absolutely agree with the motion from the Bloc. It is very timely. It is a matter of ramping up to that figure, which is also contingent on the growth of the economy. That is one of the downsides to using GDP as a measure, but I think there is a definite payback for engaging in these types of activities. I would suggest that in terms of getting a bang for our buck, Canada is one of the leading countries in making sure that the money is spent both efficiently and effectively. We can all be very proud of that.

[Stéphan Tremblay, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean—Saguenay, QC]

Mr. Speaker, my colleague has just spoken of pride and the effectiveness of the current aid programs.

Nobody can be against virtue, but I have a question for him concerning today's debate. Speaking of pride, is the hon. member proud that Canada ranks 17th out of 22 donor countries?

Hon. members will understand that this is very damaging for Canada's reputation. Does the hon. member believe that the finance minister will pay heed to this motion and, in his next budget, earmark additional funds for international cooperation?

[Joe Jordan, Liberal, Leeds—Grenville, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I hope the member is not suggesting that we as Canadians are not proud of the efforts of our international development agencies. It is contingent upon all of us to take steps forward on this file.

The purpose of my speech was primarily aimed at some of the people who today tried to criticize the policies of Canada as somehow being spendthrift, out of control and a waste of money. That is not the case at all. If the hon. member is suggesting that we need to increase our efforts in this area, I agree. However I would also suggest to him that that has to be a non-partisan effort. Anybody who feels that way has to work together to try to accomplish that.

We can see from today's debate that sometimes we are up against some pretty harsh critics. Sometimes we are up against people who have convinced themselves that international development aid is what we want and we kick the crumbs to some other country. I would suggest that there are tremendous opportunities. A rising tide tends to lift all vessels.

I know from the past speeches of the hon. member and his gestures in the House that he feels very strongly about this issue. I look forward to working with him to move this item forward.

[Antoine Dubé, Bloc, Lévis-Et-Chutes-De-La-Chaudière, QC]

Mr. Speaker, it is in my capacity as Bloc Quebecois member on the Subcommittee on Human Rights that I am taking part in this debate, which is closely related to human rights.

In my opinion, it is always good to reread the motion by my colleague for Lac-Saint-Jean--Saguenay:

That this House call upon the government to review its international aid policy with a view to substantially increasing the funds available for Canadian humanitarian aid, particularly in the context of the military interventions in Afghanistan, and to increasing the level of its aid for development to 0.7% of GDP, as recommended by the United Nations.

First, I wish to commend the hon. young member for Lac-Saint-Jean--Saguenay who proposed this motion. I have known him for five years and I think this is very representative of the work he has been doing so far. This hon. member speaks with generosity and always for the people in his riding.

I also appreciated the approach of our colleague from Trois-Rivières, who presented here in parliament the thoughts of students, of young people about this whole issue as well as the questions they are asking themselves.

A few weeks ago I was invited by a secondary 5 class and an Amnesty International group at a high school. Young people are very concerned about the current crisis. Everyone is concerned, including young people. They are very interested in this issue and they are very worried. The comments made by the hon. member for Lac-Saint-Jean--Saguenay accurately reflect the feelings of the members of his generation. I continued my consultation with teachers and many other people.

This morning, the results of a poll--I will not go into the details--indicated that Quebecers see the Afghan conflict from a slightly different perspective than other Canadians do. I am not surprised.

Let me be clear. We supported a response, a reaction by the Americans, under the aegis of the UN, to punish those responsible for the September 11 attacks and their accomplices. I think we should be clear on this.

All this brings us to the source of the problem. In my opinion, the growing gap between poor and rich countries is at the root of this problem. We must be careful not to let the current conflict degenerate and become a terrible ordeal for civilians, not only in Afghanistan, but also elsewhere in the region, and even at home. A victim, whether in the United States or in Afghanistan, is a victim nonetheless. We must never forget that.

The reason I reread the motion earlier is precisely because it puts us in the context of the current crisis. Let us not forget it. Of course the pre-September 11 humanitarian assistance is an altogether different issue but there are people and NGOs who are meeting. They were even consulted by the minister. They told her as recently as September 6, before the attacks, that they wondered about the international humanitarian assistance provided by the Canadian government. They felt that the aid provided was increasingly governed by a commercial or economical framework or vision.

Coming back to Afghanistan for example, this country has been suffering the horrors of wars for at least 20 years. People do not know where to go so they keep moving. Even before September 11 this country had the greatest numbers of refugees of all, with over 2.5 million people displaced.

Since September 11 at least 500,000 more people have been internally displaced or have fled to neighbouring countries to be safe. They have to protect themselves not only from the Taliban but also from the bombings. More and more misfires are reported. A victim, whether in Afghanistan or anywhere else in the world, remains a victim.

I was sitting in my office this afternoon getting ready for my speech when I overheard some MPs talking. I do not want to tell you who they were but I can tell you that what they said worried me somewhat. Members from the other side were saying that we could perhaps question the international and humanitarian aid to which Canada currently contributes. As if it were very significant.

One of the problems is that Canada's international assistance is dwindling. At 0.25%, it is far from the 0.7% target. It is actually less than half what former Canadian Prime Minister Lester B. Pearson had proposed for all countries. At the time, OECD countries had agreed to move in that direction but since the Liberals took office, we have been moving in the opposite direction, with declining assistance. Some members are wondering if we should continue in that direction while others suggest it is not worthwhile.

I am in favour of the most urgent humanitarian aid. Let us take for example a person whose life is in danger, whose health is threatened or who is hungry. Maslow taught us that when primary needs are not satisfied is not the time to consider development projects. How can a person think of development projects when his life or the lives of his children or his neighbours are in danger?

Since I am a member of the Standing Committee on Human Rights, I would like to read once again a few sections of the charter of human rights that was adopted by the UN more than 50 years ago. It is not asking too much to read this again.

Article 1 says, and I quote:

All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.

We must ask ourselves whether there is still a spirit of brotherhood in this conflict. There are 30 articles in the charter. For example, Article 3 states:

Everyone has the right to life--

This is essential when we are threatened with death by bombs or by people pursuing us. I go on:

--liberty and security of person.

Article 13 says:

Everyone has the right to freedom of movement and residence within the borders of each state.

When people are forced to flee their residences, I do not think they do it freely. They do it to save their lives. When people cross borders they do it because they are threatened.

Article 14 says this:

Everyone has the right to seek and to enjoy in other countries asylum from persecution.

It is a right. People are given that right, but they also need food and medical care.

Article 22 says this:

Everyone, as a member of society, has the right to social security and is entitled to realization, through national effort and international co-operation and in accordance with the organization and resources of each State, of the economic, social and cultural rights indispensable for his dignity and the free development of his personality.

An underdeveloped country may not have the same ability to provide foreign aid as another country.

Article 25 says this:

Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability...or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control.

I wanted to remind members of that. Human rights are fundamental but too often we have a tendency to forget that. We can ask ourselves why. Yes, bilateral aid from Canada or any other country must be conditional on respect for human rights.

This is the meaning of the motion and it is in this context that the member for Lac-Saint-Jean--Saguenay is presenting the motion. International aid would be sent out through the UN, the international organizations of the UN, the UN High Commission for Refugees and international agencies accredited by the UN, therefore, we could help the countries within an independent framework.

Over the weekend I discussed the issue with many people of all ages in my riding. This is what I came out with. Why would Canada not contribute as much to humanitarian aid, and we are talking about 0.7%, as it contributes to the military for participation in the offensive? We do not disagree with offensive action but we should always give as much to build and to save lives as we give to destroy a country.

[Don Boudria, Liberal, Minister of State and Leader of the Government in the House of Commons]

Mr. Speaker, I will take only two or three moments. It might seem a bit out of the ordinary for a minister to rise during questions and comments. Usually a minister rises for a speech or to state a government position.

But it is certainly not the case today. I do not intend to state any policy but I do wish to take part in this exchange with colleagues, and I do so with pleasure.

I listened to speeches in the House from my seat and a bit earlier today from my office. On the whole, I commend all members in the House for the excellent quality of their speeches today. I did not agree with all that was said but I think most of the debate was very interesting.

Without criticizing other debates, I must say that today's debate was more interesting and probably less partisan than some other opposition day debate, if I may say so.

Where I am perhaps less in agreement with the member who just spoke is with the comparison he made at the end of his speech. He tried somewhat to make a comparison between the need for a state to protect its citizens and, of course, the duty of a state to contribute to foreign aid.

This is like comparing apples with oranges and it is impossible to do so in all cases. I believe we have a duty as a society to protect citizens against terrorist acts and to take every action possible. I want to dissociate all this from our contribution to international development aid.

I was also a minister of International cooperation, a role that I loved. I travelled to 25 or 30 African countries and to many South American countries. I spent quite some time in Haiti. Our country has done a lot in several parts of the world.

I find it rather interesting to note that today in China, generally speaking, people know two things about Canada: they know of Dr. Bethune and of CIDA. Those are the two things the Chinese know about Canada.

CIDA, or ACDI as it is known in French, is well known but it is the English acronym that is known in China, since of course when a foreign language is spoken in China usually it is not French but English.

I would not likeCanadians in general think we have the right to draw a comparison between our duty to protect our citizens, which is our collective duty, and the duty to invest in development aid.

I will conclude by dissociating myself from those--which was not the case of the last speech, of course, nor the case of the last few speeches I heard--who think, wrongly, that we do not have the duty to offer a helping hand to other human beings who need us. We have such a duty. I do not know if that can be considered generosity. It is a duty for all of us. I think it is also our duty, as members of parliament, to make the population aware of this duty.

I wanted to share those feelings with my colleagues.