Debates of Nov. 26th, 2001

The House resumed from May 31 consideration of the motion.

Computer Hackers

[Ken Epp, Canadian Alliance, Elk Island, AB]

Mr. Speaker, it is my pleasure to rise in support of the motion that has been put forward by the member for Saskatoon—Humboldt. It might be appropriate for me to read the motion so that we know what we are talking about.

The motion states:

That, in the opinion of this House, the government should immediately amend the Criminal Code to create a separate category of offences and punishments for computer hackers and persons who wilfully or maliciously export computer viruses, both of whose activities disrupt the normal conduct of electronic business in Canada.

I have had the privilege of being involved with computers. I was teaching at the technical institute when we went from slide rules to computers, so I had some experience in that. Being a curious type of guy, I found great interest in these new electronic machines. Much to the chagrin of my wife and family, I sometimes forgot that it was suppertime and I forgot to go home because I was interested in learning how these newfangled machines worked.

Back in those days we did not have laptop computers or desktop computers. We only had the big mainframes. I know that I cannot use props in the House, so I will not show the cards, but I still use the cards that we had at that time. When they were being thrown away I kept some. They are excellent for writing notes. I use them for the original long term memory; that is paper and pencil to write down things and they fit into the pocket very nicely.

I went through that transition and was involved when we had to boot up computers the long way, by flipping toggle switches on the front , then hitting a button so that it would start the process of getting itself organized and then from there on it would proceed in a logical fashion.

Since then, I suppose we have progressed, although some would say we have regressed, to the point where we now have pocket computers and all sorts of devices, including pocket machines that communicate via the Internet.

I find this intriguing. I can be anywhere in the world just about with a little hand held machine, type in a message to my staff or even my family and if they are properly wired they can receive that message where ever they are. Sometimes of course, they are in an office where there is a computer. My son has text messaging on his machine and he is just an ordinary guy. It no longer a big business thing. Any time of the day or night I can send him a text message that appears on the screen of his digital phone. It has been a remarkable transition.

What we are dealing with today is those who would subvert the system. We have had a number of high profile examples. I guess mafiaboy is one that most of us remember. Through his own malicious work, he disrupted the economy of the United States on e-mail, eBay and some of the other things. Some estimated that the total cost of that malicious behaviour was in excess of $1 billion.

I am sure all members of the House would agree that is not a petty cash, small change crime. That is not exactly like pick-pocketing. That is a very serious crime.

I am not able to compare it to anything because it is not possible in most instances to cause that much of a disruption unless we look at the terrorist acts of September 11. Those were huge disruptions to the economy.

However computer hacking can have the same effect and can actually, if targeted, bring down businesses. This private member's motion seeks to recognize that it is a very serious crime.

Those who have been watching this debate on Motion No. 80, will remember that the member for North Vancouver said that the present penalty had to do with mischief and it was covered under mischief. He said that it was mischievous to call it mischief, which really was an understatement.

The parliamentary secretary and two Liberal members spoke on the motion when it was debated previously. They said that it was already covered in the legislation from 1985.

With all due respect, it really does not. When a person is apprehended, having created a computer virus to disrupt commerce and to mess up computers of individuals and businesses, the only thing we can do now is charge them under the 1985 act, and it is simply called mischievousness. It is really an inadequate classification of crime.

When the Liberal members say that it is already covered and that they will vote against it because it is redundant, I believe very strongly that they err. Whereas this is private members' business, and by tradition private members' business has been a free vote, I encourage Liberal members and all other members to dissociate themselves from party control and use their own heads to decide that this is a motion which should be supported.

The very fact that the private members' committee deemed this motion votable means that it considers it an important issue for Canadians. We should all support the motion and I strongly urge members to do this.

There is also a problem that cannot be solved by legislation. I have said often in the House and in some of my other public speeches that there is not a law that we can pass which can make people good. I am concerned about the fact that there are people who use their considerable talents for these very destructive ends.

Having worked in computer machine language way back in the earlier years, I recognize that it is not just everyone who can create a virus. It requires that one have considerable knowledge. I have done a bit of work in this regard in terms of writing computer language programs and operating disk systems. It is not difficult to change the code so that the disk speed, the way it reads the sectors and the tracks off disks is altered on the disk operating system. Those are simple parameters that can be put in, but they can cause havoc.

To write a program or create a file which inserts these variations into the very structure of the disk operating system and thereby disrupt the operation of the computer and destroy files or totally destroy the management of the hard disk on a computer is very malicious. I am really nonplussed when I consider that people can somehow convince themselves that it is okay to use their talents and abilities to write such machine language programs that would cause these problems.

I strongly support this motion that would create a separate category of crime with separate and more stringent punishment for violations in this area. I would also like to see us really beef up that part of our education component in our schools, homes and churches which would help people to grow up and recognize that their primary responsibility is to seek the well-being of others, not to see how much trouble they can cause them.

I would simply repeat myself by saying that I urge all members, notwithstanding the fact that the parliamentary secretary has said this is not necessary, to think about it, recognize and acknowledge that there is a problem here and that this motion should be supported. Let us please ignore the fact that it comes from the opposition side. Let us look at the merits of the motion. Let us vote for it so we can move forward and get with the 21st Century and the needs of it in terms of our justice system and computer hacking.

[Stephen Owen, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada]

Mr. Speaker, I would like to thank the hon. member for Saskatoon—Humboldt for raising an issue of such national and international importance. I would also like to thank the hon. member for Elk Island for sharing with us his views on this important issue.

Issues relating to cyber crime, such as hacking and malicious virus dissemination, have been widely recorded over recent months and have caused governments, industry and public much concern. Criminal conduct on the Internet has increased as we have seen the use of the Internet increase. Therefore, it is important that this and related issues receive the proper attention of parliament and the government in general.

That being said, I would like to restate this government's commitment to ensuring that our laws keep pace with technology. We would like to continue to foster the relationships the government has created with law enforcement and industry to ensure that the laws and tools used to combat cyber crime fulfill the needs of law enforcement without hampering our industry's competitive advantage.

I would also like to commend the member for Elk Island for his comments about education in the schools regarding the appropriate, responsible use of this technology. Canada continues to be a world leader in the area of battling cyber crime, crimes that in many instances do not respect orders.

We have forged many international partnerships and will continue our involvement at the G-8, the Council of Europe and the UN, to name but a few, to effectively deal with these issues.

The hon. member's motion, although well intentioned, is nonetheless redundant. He has characterized it as a provision that will fill a void in Canadian criminal law. My answer to that assertion is: no it will not. Sections 342.1 and subsection 430(1.1) of the criminal code were designed with the dissemination of malicious computer viruses in mind. They are also worded in a manner which could make them applicable to some future still unknown form of mischief.

One of Canada's legal traditions is to draft legislation in a general manner so that it does not target a particular thing. In other words, in Canada a fraud is a fraud whether committed in person or via computer. We do not need a separate offence to cover computer fraud.

In that same line of reasoning, a section which was created to deal with any form of mischief to data, including computer dissemination, should not be overwritten simply because it does not include those words explicitly.

During the first hour of debate, the hon. member for Fundy--Royal said it best when he stated that “the current criminal code is adequate to deal with computer hackers”. He also pointed out that these offences were serious offences that carried a maximum penalty of 10 years imprisonment. In fact, where the mischief in question endangers life, the penalty can be life imprisonment.

It is clear that the criminal code already deals with these types of crimes in a very serious manner. These provisions have been on the books for over 15 years and in 1997 were amended for fine tuning. This is demonstrative of this government's commitments to update our laws when needed and it will continue to do so.

Although the Minister of Justice agrees with the motion in principle, she cannot support it because the conduct is already contemplated by the code.

Justice officials have been working to establish and foster partnerships with private industry, law enforcement and other governments. It is our understanding from these sources that the criminal code adequately deals with the conduct described in the motion before us. Law enforcement has and will continue to use these provisions successfully. Again, we are all aware of the recent mafiaboy case, where the accused was charged with 64 counts of hacking and mischief.

Internationally, we have also been recognized as a world leader. In a recent independent international study on the readiness of national laws to deal with cyber crime, McConnell International found that Canada's cyber crime laws were among the world's strongest.

Although Canada is a world leader in this regard, the government is committed to ensuring that our laws speak to our changing technological environment while having due regard for fundamental human rights. Canada continues its role as a world leader and is an active participant in many international fora on cyber crime. These include, among others, the G-8, the Council of Europe, the United Nations, the Commonwealth Secretariat, OECD and the Organization of American States.

As observers to the Council of Europe, Canadian delegates have been integral in negotiating a draft convention on cyber crime, which will be adopted later this year, and will stand as the benchmark for international instruments in this area.

At the G-8, Canada continues its leadership role on cyber crime issues and is looking forward to its presidency in 2002.

Because cyber crime challenges our notions of sovereignty, our participation in these international fora will require that we constantly review our legislation to not only make sure it keeps pace with technology, but also that it is in step with the laws of international partners.

In summary, the Minister of Justice is satisfied that the criminal code already covers the malicious dissemination of computer viruses and that no further action is required with respect to this motion.

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bélair)]

Before the debate continues, I would like to inform my colleagues that, since this is the final hour of debate on Motion No. 80, I will have to interrupt the debate 15 minutes before the end of the end of the period set aside in order to vote on this motion.

[Michel Bellehumeur, Bloc, Berthier—Montcalm, QC]

Mr. Speaker, in order to better understand the debate, it is worthwhile rereading Motion No. 80, introduced by a member of the opposition, and I quote:

That, in the opinion of this House, the government should immediately amend the Criminal Code to create a separate category of offences and punishments for computer hackers and persons who wilfully or maliciously export computer viruses, both of whose activities disrupt the normal conduct of electronic business in Canada.

The first question that arises with such a motion is: why should this motion be supported? It is clear from a look at the use made of computers and this new technology that cyber crime and Internet crimes are on the rise. More people use them, more are tempted to leave their mark, on certain Internet sites and programs, for example.

In this regard, the young, people with a thorough knowledge of computers, the computer whizzes, who have had training and developed their expertise by using them, are clearly the ones likely to be most affected by this motion.

The question is whether or not this motion is justified and, if so, whether this issue is a source of concern, whether it deserves our attention, whether there is a flaw in the criminal code, whether Canada's current legislation meets our concerns and whether it is adequate, considering the use that can be made of the Internet?

I believe that this is indeed an issue that deserves our attention. It is an issue about which we must be vigilant, considering that this can develop very rapidly and, as I said earlier, it is often young people who have to deal with the problem, since they are major users of the Internet and all these programs.

This issue is indeed a source of concern and it deserves our attention. But do we need legislative amendments, as proposed by the hon. member in Motion No. 80?

Let us take a look at the criminal code. Current events allow us to see whether the criminal code is properly used and applied. They provide some answers to our questions. Does the criminal code include offences for people who, as the motion says, wilfully or maliciously export computer viruses which, as everyone knows, can disrupt electronic business in Canada?

The answer is yes. As the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Justice said earlier—and I do not always share his views, but I agree with him on this specific issue—the criminal code already includes offences carrying heavy penalties for people who might be tempted to wilfully export computer viruses, considering the seriousness of the problems caused to computer programs and the Internet system.

In order to have a balanced criminal code to deal with reprehensible actions, there must be a gradation when it comes to offences. We cannot deal with someone who attempts to introduce a computer virus in the same way that we would deal with a person who commits an act of violence, who assaults someone or commits a similar type of offence. There has to be a progression in the offences and in the sentences.

For certain cases now under study, I think that the criminal code has the necessary provisions, with respect both to offences and to sentences.

We can tell from the news whether or not the criminal code is sufficiently clear, whether it is easy to apply and whether it covers this kind of offence. The example I want to use is that of “mafia boy”, who managed to introduce computer viruses into Internet sites and throw the entire web-based economy into disarray. The legislation appears to be applicable because, first of all, this individual was traced. Second, the individual, who was in fact a youth, was charged, found guilty and sentenced.

The legislation is therefore effective. Because this is a field which is evolving very rapidly, however, we must be vigilant and look at whether the legislation will be increasingly applied and whether it will meet needs. But this goes hand in hand with the use that is made of it.

In fact, there is a series of amendments which have been in effect only since 1997-1998. The system must at least be given the time to apply them before we should contemplate changing the rules of the game.

This is rather typical of the Canadian Alliance, which does not wait for the results, particularly where young people are involved. It does not wait to see whether or not the legislation is inadequate, whether or not it should be amended immediately. In its view, what is needed is to crack down as quickly as possible, to hand out tougher and tougher sentences, because young people are involved.

I urge Canadian Alliance members and the government as well to take a good look at what is going on in the field of informatics. There is no reason right now to jump in and start amending the existing legislation.

Today, I feel safe when it comes to informatics because the criminal code has provisions to cover this. Should young people or adults try to introduce viruses into computer programs, we have the legislation necessary to arrest them, bring them before the courts, and deal with them. We have what is needed.

Members will therefore understand that the Bloc Quebecois is voting against Motion No. 80.

[Scott Brison, Progressive Conservative, Kings—Hants, NS]

Mr. Speaker, it is with pleasure that I rise today to speak to Motion No. 80. The legislation is so important given the degree to which increasingly societies, not just within North America but globally, depend on the security of the Internet, not just from an e-commerce perspective but from a sharing of information and a general communication perspective.

I support the hon. member's assertion that we need to strengthen our laws in this regard. We will not have continued growth in e-commerce and in the use of the Internet if Canadians and indeed citizens everywhere in the world do not feel comfortable with the level of security that is currently provided on the Internet.

We have seen a range of Internet crimes: web defacements, fraud, theft, industrial espionage, data theft and data manipulation. Communicating with children and sexual exploitation has also occurred via the Internet. Some of the mischief cases mentioned earlier today involving hacking have cost millions if not hundreds of millions of dollars in disruptions. Some of the other nefarious activities have been far from simple mischief but have in fact disrupted the flow of goods and services and communication. These things need to be dealt with very seriously.

The challenge with regulating the Internet is the Internet is still in some ways an adolescent technology. It is developing so quickly that laws designed now may be out of date in a very short period of time. It is also by its nature a global vehicle and, as such, national laws, national courts and national judicial fora and processes are not really as effective as they might be in dealing with them. I would urge the government to not only be supportive of the motion in terms of doing what we can within our own country to strengthen the laws but to work with other countries and perhaps take a leadership role in developing a more co-operative and multilateral approach to the issue.

Canada's percentage of Internet commerce globally is not great enough to actually reduce through national laws and national enforcement all that is capable of grinding the Internet to a halt. If somebody in the U.K. chooses to use the Internet, either through hacking, fraud or some other illegal means, to create disruption or havoc, Canadian laws will not necessarily reduce or ultimately punish that individual. Given that the Internet is an international instrument we must work with other countries to develop an international approach.

I would not want the government to escape its responsibility within Canadian jurisdictions by pointing to the fact that the Internet is by its nature an international vehicle. Within our own lawmaking abilities here in parliament and within our own law enforcement we must move more aggressively to ensure that the Internet continues to be a secure vehicle within Canada.

In Canada we have, as a percentage of our population, a greater level of Internet participation than almost any country in the industrialized world, even greater than that of the U.S. As such, Canada and the government should be playing a leadership role in this regard, particularly now.

In some ways the motion should be considered in a post-September 11 context and from the perspective of anti-terrorism. The Internet, like any other telecommunication vehicle, can be used by terrorists for terrorism or for those types of things. It is not only important for us to consider strengthening our domestic legislation but we also need to play a leadership role in an international sense. We need to work with other countries to harmonize our approach to the Internet in the same way we have seen the harmonization of some of the anti-terrorist initiatives, particularly those that seek to reduce the incidents of money laundering, which is also an international problem.

E-commerce does not just deal with goods and services. It also deals with money and money trading. We need to take a far more serious look at not only what we do domestically to reduce Internet crime but we need to play a leadership role by working with other countries to ensure that we are vigilant in continuing to defend the sanctity of the Internet as a secure place to do business and a secure place for Canadians to become full participants in the global Internet community.

[Mac Harb, Liberal, Ottawa Centre, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to join my colleague in speaking to this issue. The Parliamentary Secretary to the Solicitor General of Canada stated at the outset of the debate that we already have in place mechanisms in the criminal code that deal with the specific issue before the House today. Section 342.1 and subsection 430(1.1) were created in 1985 and both deal with the dissemination of computer viruses.

On the surface it seems that the motion is pretty good. The minister said it was fine. However the issue has been part and parcel of the criminal code and to that extent I will speak about the importance of the issue. The issue is very important not only to the Government of Canada, the House, and the hon. member who put the motion but to all Canadians.

I wish to assure the House that the government takes this issue very seriously. In fact Canada was one of the first countries in the world to introduce computer related offences in the criminal code.

Canada is not only one of the most connected nations on earth but it also has some of the best legislation dealing with the issue of dissemination of hate literature, hacker data and the transmission of viruses over the Internet. The Government of Canada has taken measures to address this issue a long time ago and continues to do so.

In 1997 the government moved even further by adding new offences to the Criminal Law Improvement Act that would deal specifically with possession or trafficking in computer passwords and the possession of devices that could enable the commission of an offence which would compromise the confidentiality and integrity of a computer system.

Rapid technological changes require that we continuously review and update the criminal code to ensure that it keeps up with contemporary crimes that take place. The omnibus bill that deals with the use of the Internet by pedophiles for luring children among other things is an example of the review process the government has undertaken in the past and continues to do so.

The government has launched a number of initiatives, one of which was the establishment of a working group made up of officials from the RCMP as well as officials from various government departments including justice, industry, foreign affairs, the solicitor general, health and heritage.

A consultative process was launched in 2000 in partnership with the private sector, namely the Canadian Association of Internet Providers and the Information Technology Association of Canada. The mandate of the working group was to review on an ongoing basis not only the actions of the government but the potential for action by the government to review what was taking place in the marketplace and to respond to it in an efficient, effective, pragmatic and progressive fashion.

In terms of enforcement, the RCMP offers training courses through the Canadian Police College for crime investigators on electronic search and seizure by looking at two types of computers, the PC and the Macintosh. It also offers a network communications course and will soon introduce an introductory Unix course.

In recent weeks the RCMP sponsored two courses on advanced intrusion analysis for investigators from the federal, provincial and municipal law enforcement communities. These courses provide investigators with practical examples of a hacker's tools as well as simulated network intrusions to gain experience and knowledge of a hacker's behaviour, modus operandi and style.

The government is using law enforcement agencies as well as taking measures on the legislative and preventive fronts. The RCMP is in the field working collectively with all levels of government and the community to ensure that children, consumers and society are protected.

There have been many success stories that can be cited in the House. The parliamentary secretary indicated the case of mafia boy. That individual was prosecuted.

The RCMP is involved with a case in western Canada where a manufacturer of illicit drugs was using the Internet to send coded messages to potential purchasers and later shipped goods using the computer. The RCMP is on top of an ongoing investigation and we anticipate a swift conclusion to this case.

The RCMP is involved with a project called moonlight maze which was a computer intrusion investigation involving the FBI and Scotland Yard. A hacker could be anywhere and commit a crime. In this case a hacker based in Moscow used various computer sites in Canada to gain access to various military installations in the United States to do damage.

While this investigation is ongoing law enforcement officers not only within this country but around the world are aware of the potential for problems. They are also working collectively in order to deal with issues affecting the safety of computers and computer users.

Last year the RCMP investigated numerous website defacement cases in Canada and the United States. These acts were traced to a 16 year old youth from Sackville. The victims included Human Resources Development Canada, the Department of National Defence, the United States postal service and an Internet service provider in New York.

The youth was a member of an international hacker group called HV2K that comprised 20 persons from Canada, the United States, England and Pakistan. This issue is still under investigation by the RCMP. The RCMP has worked very diligently with its counterparts in the United States and around the world to deal with issues affecting the safety of data as well as of computers.

In 1999 the RCMP launched an investigation of a computer hacking ring located in the eastern provinces. A computer had successfully penetrated two large Internet service providers stealing one of their ISP user IDs and password files and decrypting the password file to gain anonymous access to the Internet to compromise the e-mail accounts of users. This investigation has been ongoing for quite a long time and the RCMP is on top of it working with law enforcement officers at all levels of government.

Needless to say, the government takes this issue very seriously. The government has launched a number of initiatives and continues to do so in order to respond to this issue. While I commend my colleague on taking this initiative and bringing it to the House of Commons I must state that it has been part of the criminal code and is being dealt with by the government.

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bélair)]

Order, please. It being 11.50 a.m., the time allocated for debate on the motion has expired. It is my duty to put forthwith every question necessary to dispose of the motion now before the House.

Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[Some hon. members]

No.

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bélair)]

All those in favour of the motion will please say yea.

[Some hon. members]

Yea.

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bélair)]

All those opposed will please say nay.

[Some hon. members]

Nay.

[The Speaker]

In my opinion the nays have it.

And more than five members having risen:

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bélair)]

Pursuant to the order adopted on November 20, 2001, the recorded division on the motion stands deferred until Tuesday, November 27, 2001, at the end of the period reserved for oral questions.

[Geoff Regan, Liberal, Halifax West, NS]

Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order. There have been discussions among the various parties and since we are moving to the final stage of a bill and members have important amendments they would like to put in place, I would ask that you seek to suspend until 12 o'clock.

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bélair)]

Is there unanimous consent to suspend until 12 o'clock?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[An hon. member]

No.

Points of Order

[Peter MacKay, Progressive Conservative, Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough, NS]

Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order today dealing with the report stage of Bill C-36, which is the first item on the order of business that will be called today. I want to ask the assistance of the Speaker in a difficulty that faces members of the House, particularly pursuant to Standing Order 40(2), which reads as follows:

Government Orders shall be called and considered in such sequence as the government determines.

This appears to be an absolute right for the government but the House is facing an extraordinary situation, which I want to suggest might cause the government House leader to alter his plans for today to go on with this bill. I will try to be brief.

The Speaker will recall that on Thursday afternoon I raised a number of difficulties that resulted from the government's decision to call report stage of Bill C-36 today. This resulted in the House passing two extraordinary orders to extend time deadlines for the filing of report stage amendments, the final deadline being 6 o'clock Saturday evening. I want to state that the deadline resulted in a number of House employees having their weekend plans disrupted. I want to thank those people and their families for putting up with the disruption that the government caused in its haste to bring forward this bill today.

One copy of Bill C-36, one copy, was available to myself as House leader of the coalition at 2.45 on Friday afternoon. The normal deadline that would have been in place had I not objected on Thursday would have been 2 p.m. on Friday. The bill showing the committee amendments, over 100 in number, was not posted on the House website until later that afternoon.

Let us be clear. The government decided to call Bill C-36 today without ensuring that amended copies of the bill would be made available to all members of the House before the normal deadline for filing report stage notices of proposed amendments. Those on the committee are at a distinct advantage. Not all members of parliament, including leaders in the opposition, could access the amended bill.

The responsibility for this must rest with the government. It is the government House leader who decides the business that he will call and when he will call it. I suspect that there are many members of parliament who very much would have liked an opportunity to participate fully in this process.

The justice committee heard about 100 witnesses on the contents of the bill and made more than 100 amendments. This is a highly important bill, which has had a number of significant amendments. The testimony of only half of those witnesses has been published. Half of the evidence has not been published, including the minister's own testimony wherein she outlines the important changes.

Our constituents have not been able to assess or even access the evidence that was adduced by the standing committee. Therefore they have been denied the ability to be active and informed participants in this democratic process.

There is an important lack of transparency in what we are seeing here and what we are being asked to do. The House is being asked to decide the content of Bill C-36 before the Canadian people have even been able to read the evidence of such important witnesses as representatives of the Canadian Jewish Congress, the Canadian Islamic Congress, the Canadian Arab Federation, the World Sikh Organization or the Canadian Council of Churches.

Nor is there a public transcript of the evidence of the Hon. Warren Allmand, PC, OC, Q.C., president of the International Centre for Human Rights and Democratic Development and a former solicitor general. One would think that the government would be willing to have Canadians access Mr. Allmand's testimony before it finalizes the language of Bill C-36.

Canadians are not able to access the testimony of Muslim lawyers. Nor can they see the testimony of the executive director of the national organization of immigrant and visible minority women in Canada. Nor can Canadians see the testimony of the representatives of the Canadian Police Association or the Criminal Lawyers' Association or the Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police.

The evidence of over 50 witnesses who appeared before the committee on Bill C-36 is unavailable to Canadians. Those Canadians who made the effort to make representations to the justice committee have had in effect been told that their evidence does not matter. The government House leader wants the House of Commons to vote on Bill C-36 and its amendments before the community has had the opportunity to know what important organizations and individuals told the committee.

Access to and possible contact with members of parliament after the bill has been amended has been denied. Nor are Canadians to have access to what the Minister of Justice told the committee about the amendments that have been made to the bill. That too is unavailable. Our constituents are being kept in the dark on this issue. The minister's words are to remain secret from the population until after the bill has been passed with amendments and it has not been the practice of the Minister of Justice, I suggest, to listen to debate in the House.

As the member for Winnipeg--Transcona stated, the minister came before the committee not to listen but to lecture. I reiterate that these amendments were supposed to provide comfort. They were supposed to give reassurance and to reinforce concerns about the bill.

So far I have been speaking about the verbal testimony of witnesses, but there is a greater secrecy that exists with respect to the 50th meeting of the justice committee, a meeting, I might add, that concluded at close to 3 a.m. on Wednesday.

Not only is there no public transcript of the debate that occurred, but until late afternoon on Sunday the minutes showing all amendments proposed and defeated were unavailable to Canadians who might be interested in making representations to their local members, long after the deadline for filing notice of new amendments.

This denies members of the opposition, particularly those members like my colleague from Dewdney--Alouette and others who were not present at the justice committee, the ability to make a considered decision as to whether they in fact would like to file amendments as well.

The House is being asked to legislate in secrecy. There is no public transparency of the deliberations of the standing committee. Canadian citizens and residents whose liberty and security are very much the subject of this legislation have been denied the ability to influence, to be fully informed and to interact on this bill. Members of the House, because the government is proceeding with the bill, are being asked to do so blindly, before the public record is complete.

I ask the government to consider delaying the report stage until Canadians have had the opportunity to view the record of the justice committee. To shut Canadians out of the process in this way does not serve Canadians properly. In fact it is a disservice to our participatory democracy. I respectfully ask the government to delay the bill until the public record is complete. If we are to have full access then this important testimony must be available not only to all members of the House but to Canadians generally.

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bélair)]

I thank the hon. member for his point of order. I shall report to the Speaker, who will rule on it in due course.

[Don Boudria, Liberal, Minister of State and Leader of the Government in the House of Commons]

Mr. Speaker, I would like to contribute a few words toward this and hopefully the Speaker will see things having heard both sides when he rules on this.

First, I profoundly disagree with the hon. member. It seems like the plea he is making is not one in which the issue is out of order but one in which he is asking the government to delay the bill, which is not the same thing.

I had no warning of his remarks, not that he had to warn me. I know that, but he was aware of the fact I was here and I would have wished to have known that he was to make the remarks so I could respond to them fully. His remarks were largely directed at me, as Mr. Speaker will know.

First he said the contents of Bill C-36 were not publicly known. That of course borders on the ridiculous. We all know that the bill has been in the public domain for several weeks. Actually all parties in the House, including the hon. member, contributed to the greater publication of the bill initially by giving the consents required, for which I thank them, but that is not the same as saying that it is not available publicly. He referred to the committee's work.

[Peter MacKay, Progressive Conservative, Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough, NS]

The testimony, not the bill.

[Don Boudria, Liberal, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

I will get to that. The committee's work was actually extended by several days. I was consulted and gave my agreement about that.

Last Friday, by unanimous consent of the House, the rules were changed three times in order to allow more time, at the request of the hon. member and as a result of his plea, for which I thank him, but at the same time he cannot get three extensions of the rules and then complain that he did not get enough time to prepare or that anybody else did not.